Homo Sapiens : The Birth of Humanity

[JusticeLover]

Theory of evolution, states that it is a continuing process of evolution but by seeing that we have remained homosapians and not evolved into someting else proves that this theory is not correct.

Theory of evolution says evolution process is continuous , plus time span of expected mutation is in thousands of years may be 5 to t 10 thousands years , natural gene selection and mutation works in very large time frame, and evolution to other species or modified species is not guaranteed, take example of crocodile .
However some species have wings but cant fly like chicken,kiwi maybe its in middle of its change.

The topic is very vast and suggested for those who have interest in it, you cant get your answers in few lines or on the other hand may be many books would be insufficient to give a clear cut answer.

 

[KhanHaripur]

They might change but will remain humans scientifically no one has ever produced a observable proof changing one kind to another, there are some proof but the species remain same like the example of darvins observation of bird on some island they grew different beaks but still they were birds.
Their cliam is "one kinds evolving into another kind" which we are still waiting for the proof.

Understanding a natural phenomenon is a function of the state of the knowledge and art which both in turn are time (and, to some extent, also space) specific.

Theory of evolution is a very useful scientific framework to understand certain natural phenomena. It was conceived and is applied to understand the origin of life and species on the earth. Unfortunately in debates like going on this tread, it is taken to be only applicable to human specie which definitely is not the case. Darwin in his thesis just postulated a hypothesis about the origins of the human specie with potent arguments but did not proved any thing in definite terms. And remember this was just his one of the many hypotheses which were even sounder than this one. So, please get the perspective and context of the debate right.

Much before Darwin, theory of evolutionhas been revealed/told/narrated in religious scriptures. It does not mean that humans evolved from apes/monkeys/chimpanzees. Neither Darwin claimed that with any definitive evidence. What Darwin did was properly postulated, framed, refined and presented it in a scientific jargon/terminology. And that is what all the scientific methodology and science community are doing world over!


Even today human specie is evolving. Recently there was a report on BBC which based on scientific research suggested that in about 2000 years time humans would markedly look different than what they look now. Based on/using computer graphing techniques, the report even generated/projected/presented some futuristic images as well.

 

[jason]

Theory of evolution says evolution process is continuous , plus time span of expected mutation is in thousands of years may be 5 to t 10 thousands years , natural gene selection and mutation works in very large time frame, and evolution to other species or modified species is not guaranteed, take example of crocodile .
However some species have wings but cant fly like chicken,kiwi maybe its in middle of its change.

The topic is very vast and suggested for those who have interest in it, you cant get your answers in few lines or on the other hand may be many books would be insufficient to give a clear cut answer.

We are homosapians for the past thousands of years and we have not changed other species might have have changed like eg carnivorous and some may have change there characteristics, but humans have remain the same atleast for the past years which human history proves. Humans are even the most resilient of all the species.

 

[JusticeLover]

We are homosapians for the past thousands of years and we have not changed other species might have have changed like eg carnivorous and some may have change there characteristics, but humans have remain the same atleast for the past years which human history proves. Humans are even the most resilient of all the species.

history is not older then 2000 year we are taking about 5 to 10 thousand years.

 

[jason]

history is not older then 2000 year we are taking about 5 to 10 thousand years.

it is time wastage of arguing on a theory which is yet to be proved correct.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

it is time wastage of arguing on a theory which is yet to be proved correct.

Agreed bro. The theory of evolution is still evolving. Moreover, we should not condemn it out rightly just because it goes against our so called beliefs and interpretations of the religion. Like this, the knowledge and progress stagnates. Let the scientists do their work and we should see their work with impartiality. May be one day they come to the conclusion which are aligned to your religious beliefs/interpretations. But by putting a lid on it and condemning it will only regress the development and pragmatism of science/knowledge. This had been a plague of our medieval Islam and Christianity as well, where many scientists were executed or desolated. The truth of the matter is that the discussion on the topic should be limited between the people who have a proper contextual knowledge about it and also the discussions should be highly objective, rather than subjective to our religious beliefs and/or interpretations.

 

[ASQR1]

But we should be able to ask questions, how silly they may sound to these geeks, what boggles my mind is that in a conference situation when these geeks come together, they act as unapproachable dudes to the audiences they are trying to convince. Why so?

 

[mehwish_ali]

My question was and is why they were wiped out and how come they were the one wiped out and not the other two. if the one was to be wiped out considering logically, it would or should have been the one at the bottom of the wrung, and that meant wiped/disappearing of the lower one, the apes. Please enlighten.

Neanderthal being in middle disappearing make no sense. thanks. by the way I am a man and old one to boot.

You are only doing a counter question. There may be many questions which science has not yet answered while it still not got the proofs. But what about the proofs it has already brought forward in form of fossils and stones and ancient cultures???

Therefore, firstly you have to admit that there existed creatures, who were 99.7% like Human beings with brain. But ancient scriptures like Torah or Bible or any other divinely scripture never told us about them.

Dinosaurs also existed but no one know exactly why only they ended to exist while other creatures still exist. Dinosaurs were the biggest predators but still they stopped existing. But ancient scriptures like Torah or Bible or any other divinely scripture never told us about them.

The Neanderthals did have given their DNA to the European Generations.

You can read more about Neanderthal here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthals


[h=2]Extinction hypotheses[/h]Possible scenarios for the extinction of the Neanderthals are:

1. Neanderthals were a separate species from modern humans, and became extinct (because of climate change or interaction with humans) and were replaced by modern humans moving into their habitat beginning around 80,000 years ago.[SUP][90][/SUP] Competition with humans probably contributed to Neanderthal extinction.[SUP][91][/SUP][SUP][92][/SUP] Jared Diamond has suggested a scenario of violent conflict and displacement.[SUP][93][/SUP]
2. Neanderthals were a contemporary subspecies that bred with modern humans and disappeared through absorption (interbreeding theory).
3. A Campanian ignimbrite volcanic super-eruption around 40,000 years ago, followed by a second one a few thousand years later, has been hypothesised as having contributed to the demise of the Neanderthal, based on evidence from Mezmaiskaya cave in the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia.[SUP][94][/SUP][SUP][95][/SUP] Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis of a specimen from Mezmaiskaya Cave is radiocarbon dated to be about 29,000 years BP and therefore from one of the latest living Neanderthal individuals. The sequence shows 3.48% divergence from the Feldhofer Neanderthal. Phylogenetic analysis places the two Neanderthals from the Caucasus and western Germany together in a clade that is distinct from modern humans, suggesting that their mtDNA types have not contributed to the modern human mtDNA pool.[SUP][48][/SUP]

Please also read about Climate change, and co-existence with modern Human beings, and also about cross interbreeding in the above mentioned link.

 

[mehwish_ali]

They might change but will remain humans scientifically no one has ever produced a observable proof changing one kind to another, there are some proof but the species remain same like the example of darvins observation of bird on some island they grew different beaks but still they were birds.
Their cliam is "one kinds evolving into another kind" which we are still waiting for the proof.

You (and other people who look at issues from the lens of religion) are only focused of changing of Apes into another kind.

There are several other aspects to consider.

It may be that evolution theory of Darwin is not 100% correct, but other angels of this debate are:


1) There were modern Humans about 200000 years ago, while history of Adam (as) go back only to 6 thousand years back only.


2) Religious people also brought the argument that age of Noah (as) was 1000 years or 900 years etc.
No scientific record supports such claim.

All the Homo Sapiens or Neanderthals or Homo erectus etc.... none of them was able to live more for 1000 year. All of them have similar life span like modern day Human beings.

Even the fossils of modern Human beings that trace back to 200 thousands years, their life span never extended to 1000 years.



3) There is hypotheses that evolution took place on bases of 'Interbreeding'. There are proofs that modern European have 1% to 4% DNA of Neanderthals. May be Neanderthals cross breaded with other creatures and so on.

Both Diet and Interbreeding could bring a lot of changes.

Therefore, jury is still out. Science may have not found the answers to many questions yet, but surely it is much more advanced than any older scripture of any religion about telling what happened in the past along with facts and proofs.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

But we should be able to ask questions, how silly they may sound to these geeks, what boggles my mind is that in a conference situation when these geeks come together, they act as unapproachable dudes to the audiences they are trying to convince. Why so?

Well, I can understand your point man. The problem arises due to the disparity of the knowledge on both sides, neither do we have enough comprehension of the biological field nor these scientists can come to our level of knowledge and understanding. Furthermore, it is hard to keep the biases out from these discussions, even if someone tries to do so, somethings are not acceptable to us and the bias comes un-intentionally.

I think that a more mature way to look at it is by the effects it can bring into our lives. I mean how my present life is going to be changed even if they prove right ? if they can make a positive contribution to the human race, then it is ok with me. However, it appears that even if they prove their point, it seems quite out of chance that they may be able to influence our present day or future lives. They are just going to write history, which is history, only interpreted and not witnessed... if you know what I mean.... so no need to get too sensitized by the issue.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

You are only doing a counter question. There may be many questions which science has not yet answered while it still not got the proofs. But what about the proofs it has already brought forward in form of fossils and stones and ancient cultures???

At first, your comment implies that the Theory of Evolution is still evolving. Over the years, many things have been added and rejected from the original theory of Darwin... so can we say that this theory is now complete? there are many things which still needs a satisfying answer and in the end, who knows how it is shaped.

Secondly, I think this is purely a scientific topic and does not have much to do with religion and/or politics. Therefore, the discussion can be much more fruitful if carried out among the like minded people (imagine if I start a discussion on string theory and quantum suicide over here as well). There is nothing like persuasion in science, science only explains things which eventually becomes a writing on the wall.

 

[KhanHaripur]

Congratulation the scientists have found the lone surviving Neanderthal in Edgeware London.the reason for his survival indicates he was interbreeded between APES and ALIENS(omg)
Sorry but I cant take you serious.

You (and other people who look at issues from the lens of religion) are only focused of changing of Apes into another kind.

There are several other aspects to consider.

It may be that evolution theory of Darwin is not 100% correct, but other angels of this debate are:


1) There were modern Humans about 200000 years ago, while history of Adam (as) go back only to 6 thousand years back only.


2) Religious people also brought the argument that age of Noah (as) was 1000 years or 900 years etc.
No scientific record supports such claim.

All the Homo Sapiens or Neanderthals or Homo erectus etc.... none of them was able to live more for 1000 year. All of them have similar life span like modern day Human beings.

Even the fossils of modern Human beings that trace back to 200 thousands years, their life span never extended to 1000 years.



3) There is hypotheses that evolution took place on bases of 'Interbreeding'. There are proofs that modern European have 1% to 4% DNA of Neanderthals. May be Neanderthals cross breaded with other creatures and so on.

Both Diet and Interbreeding could bring a lot of changes.

Therefore, jury is still out. Science may have not found the answers to many questions yet, but surely it is much more advanced than any older scripture of any religion about telling what happened in the past along with facts and proofs.

 

[KhanHaripur]

Congratulation the scientists have found the lone surviving Neanderthal in Edgeware London.the reason for his survival indicates he was interbreeded between APES and ALIENS(omg)
Sorry but I cant take you serious.

You (and other people who look at issues from the lens of religion) are only focused of changing of Apes into another kind.

There are several other aspects to consider.

It may be that evolution theory of Darwin is not 100% correct, but other angels of this debate are:


1) There were modern Humans about 200000 years ago, while history of Adam (as) go back only to 6 thousand years back only.


2) Religious people also brought the argument that age of Noah (as) was 1000 years or 900 years etc.
No scientific record supports such claim.

All the Homo Sapiens or Neanderthals or Homo erectus etc.... none of them was able to live more for 1000 year. All of them have similar life span like modern day Human beings.

Even the fossils of modern Human beings that trace back to 200 thousands years, their life span never extended to 1000 years.



3) There is hypotheses that evolution took place on bases of 'Interbreeding'. There are proofs that modern European have 1% to 4% DNA of Neanderthals. May be Neanderthals cross breaded with other creatures and so on.

Both Diet and Interbreeding could bring a lot of changes.

Therefore, jury is still out. Science may have not found the answers to many questions yet, but surely it is much more advanced than any older scripture of any religion about telling what happened in the past along with facts and proofs.

 

[mehwish_ali]

At first, your comment implies that the Theory of Evolution is still evolving. Over the years, many things have been added and rejected from the original theory of Darwin... so can we say that this theory is now complete? there are many things which still needs a satisfying answer and in the end, who knows how it is shaped.

Secondly, I think this is purely a scientific topic and does not have much to do with religion and/or politics. Therefore, the discussion can be much more fruitful if carried out among the like minded people (imagine if I start a discussion on string theory and quantum suicide over here as well). There is nothing like persuasion in science, science only explains things which eventually becomes a writing on the wall.

شکریہ۔

انسان مختلف ذہین اور آراء رکھتا ہے۔

آپکی رائے کا احترام کرتے ہوئے بھی مجھے آپکی رائے سے اس معاملے میں مختلف رائے رہے گی۔ میں چاہوں یا نہ چاہوں، مگر میرا ذہن مجھے یہ کہہ رہا ہے کہ میں عقیدے کے نام پر جس چیز پر ایمان اور یقین رکھ رہی ہوں، سائنس بھی اس کی تصدیق کرے۔

اور میں تنہا نہیں ہوں جو چاہتی ہوں کہ سائنس بھی میرے ایمان و عقیدے کی تصدیق کرے، بلکہ آپ دیکھ سکتے ہیں کہ یہود و نصاری و مسلمانوں نے "الہامی پیشنگوئیوں" کے نام پر مذہب کو سائنس سے پروف کرنے کے لیے کئی کتابیں لکھ ڈالیں۔

صرف مسئلہ یہ پیدا ہو رہا ہے کہ میرے کیس میں سائنس میرے عقیدے، میرے مذہب کے مطابق نہیں چل رہی، بلکہ اسکا الٹ ثابت کر رہی ہے۔

جبکہ دیگر حضرات کا طریقہ کار یہ ہے کہ وہ ڈارون کی ارتقاء کی تھیوری کو غلط ثابت کر کے یہ دعوی کرتے ہیں کہ انکا مذہب سچائی بیان کر رہا ہے ۔۔۔ یہ طریقہ کار بالکل غلط ہے۔ عین ممکن ہے کہ ڈارون کی تھیوری بھی غلط ہو اور انکا مذہب بھی غلط ہو۔ ڈارون کی تھیوری غلط ہونے کا مطلب یہ نہیں کہ انکا مذہب سچا ہو گیا۔

ان لوگوں نے سائنٹیفکلی ثابت نہیں کیا کہ انسان آج سے فقط 6 ہزار سال پہلے حضرت آدم علیہ السلام سے شروع ہوا،۔۔۔ یہ بھی ثابت نہیں کیا کہ آج سے 6 ہزار سال پہلے بسنے والے انسان کی زندگی ہزار سال ہوتی تھی، ۔۔۔ یہ بھی ثابت نہیں کیا طوفان کی صورت میں ایک کشتی میں لاکھوں قسم کے جانور اور حشرات الارض اکھٹے ہو سکتے ہیں۔ بلکہ کشتی نوح کے معاملے میں بھی "ارتقاء کی تھیوری" ہی پیش کر دی گئی کہ بلی شیر کی خالہ اس لیے بنی کہ بلی کی پشت پر ہاتھ پھیرا گیا تو شیر پیدا ہوا وغیرہ وغیرہ۔ اگرچہ کہ آج یہ لوگ ایسی چیزوں کا انکار کرتے ہیں، مگر یہ روایات ان مذہبی صحیفوں میں صدیوں سے درج رہیں ہیں۔



​

 

[Sohail Shuja]

صرف مسئلہ یہ پیدا ہو رہا ہے کہ میرے کیس میں سائنس میرے عقیدے، میرے مذہب کے مطابق نہیں چل رہی، بلکہ اسکا الٹ ثابت کر رہی ہے۔

​

G main koshish ker k salees urdu main apney alfaz dobara bayan kerta houn : Pehli baat to yeh hay k Theory of Evolution abhi khud bhi irtiqai marahil main hay aur hum nahi jantay k iss ki aakhri ashkal kya hongi. Laikin uss k liye hamain uss waqt tak intizar bhi kerna ho ga aur iss pe kaam bhi kerna ho ga jab tak k koi hatmi raay na qaim ki ja sakay. Lihaza uss waqt tak iss maslay ko agar mazhab se door hi rakhain to behtar hay kyun k sirf mazhabi jazbaat main beh janay ki wajha se hum ilm ki tanazzuli ka baais hi banayngay, jaisa k quroon e wusta k musalman aur eesayee banay aur laakhon science daano ko kafir aur shaitan ka sathi keh ker maar dala. Zara sochain k science to abhi pichlay koi 200 saal main itni taizi se taraqi pana shuru hui hay aur koi pichlay 100 saal se iss ne kuch aisay raazon se parda uthaya hay jo 1400 saal pehlay hi Quran main mujood thay. Laikin zara sochain k kya aaj se 1000 saal pehlay paida honay wala insaan jaanta tha k uss ki maut k 400 saal k baad in haqeeqaton se parda e raaz uthay ga jo k uss k zamanay main sirf "tamseeli" baatain kahi jati thi? Lihaza, hathaili pe sarson jamanay ki bajaye science ko us ka waqt dain k jab ye khud iss baat pe mutafiqqa taur pe koi hathmi raaye qaim ker ley.

Dosri taraf agar hum daikhain to hamaray buht sarey mazhabi aitiqadaat sirf hamari apni "riwayat" aur "tafaseer" pe mabni hain. Maaf kijye ga laikin yahan main yeh baat zaroor kahounga k hamara ittefaq to buht saari un tafaseer aur riwayat pe bhi nahi hay jo k sirf 1400 saal purani hain, to Hazrat Adam (AS) aur Hazrat Nooh (AH) k baray main jo batain ki gayee hain un pe kaisay koi aankh band ker k yaqeen ker sakta hay. Agar main ghalat houn to meri islah ker dijye, laikin kahin Quran ya hadees e mubarika main kahin saaf taur pe likha hua hay k Hazrat Adam (AS) ki umr 1000 saal thi? chalain agar thi bhi to mujhy yeh batayein k kya woh saal qamri saal thay ya shamsi ? mera to zaati khyal hay k Hazrat Adam (AS) ya Hazrat Nooh (AS) k waqt main to calendar bhi nahi bana tha.

Iss k ilawa, agar ghaur farmayein to buht saari aisi cheezain hain iss theory main jo k hamaray mazhabi aiteqadat k ain mutabiq hain, maslan aik to yeh hi hay k theroy of Evolution bhi maanti hay k Insaan Ashraf ul Makhlooqat hay, dosra yeh k insan ki paidaish bhi mitti se hui aur teesra yeh k tamam hashrat ul arz, charind, parind, pair aur pauday bhi insan ki takhleeq se pehlay wajood main aaye. Abb daikhan yeh hay k baqi muamlaat main science kab baqi raazon se bhi parda uthati hay. Tab tak ham agar iss ki paesh raft k liye agar kuch nahi ker saktay to kam az kam iss ki raah main roray bhi na atkayein to behtar ho ga. Ho sakta hay k shayd hamari nahi to hamari aanay wali naslain iss raaz ko paa sakain k dar e parda asal haqeeqat hay kya.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Mazeed iss zimn main yeh arz hay k Science k dunya main koi cheez kabhi bhi hathmi nahi hoti. Main issi thread pe apni pichli aik post main misaal dey chuka houn k aaj se 10 saal pehlay k doctor yeh maantay thay k margarine asli makhan se ziada sehat baksh hay, laikin aaj kal ki tehqeeq ne iss mafroozay ko bilkul ghalat saabit ker diya aur asli makhan ko sehat k liye ba nisbat e margarine intiha taur pe sehat baksh qarar de diya.

Darasal main pehlay bhi iss baat ki darkhuwast ker chuka houn k yeh masla dar asal sirf scientific naweyat ka hay aur behtar hay k iss pe wohi log behas karain jin ko iss maslay ki pooray taur pe aagahi hay. Main ya aap sirf 2 kitabain parh k iss pe behas kar bhi laingay to iss se saabit kuch nahi ker sakaingay. Science ka asal maqsad insaan ki falah hay aur mazhab ka bhi. Laikin aisay scientific masail pe mazhab ki qalayee kerda guftagoo se haasil sirf ikhtilaf hota hay. Sirf ikhtilaf e raaye tak baat rahay to bhi theek hay, laikin yahan baatain dosron ko kafir qarar dainay aur wajib ul qatal thehranay tak chali jaati hain. Abb yeh maqsad na to science ka hay aur na hi mazhab ka. Lihaza, aik dafa phir appeal ki jati hay k ya to iss maslay ko sirf sciency aitebar se zair e behas laayein ya phir yeh masla un pe hi chor dain jo k yeh kaam ba ahsan tareeqay se paya e takmeel tak pohncha saktay hain aur aapas main koi taameeri mubahis ker saktay hain. Main aur aap to sirf inn cheezon pe ya to aik dosray ko ya phir mil k kisi teesray ko sirf aakhir main gaaliyan hi nikal saktay hain.

 

[ASQR1]

Well, I can understand your point man. The problem arises due to the disparity of the knowledge on both sides, neither do we have enough comprehension of the biological field nor these scientists can come to our level of knowledge and understanding. Furthermore, it is hard to keep the biases out from these discussions, even if someone tries to do so, somethings are not acceptable to us and the bias comes un-intentionally.

I think that a more mature way to look at it is by the effects it can bring into our lives. I mean how my present life is going to be changed even if they prove right ? if they can make a positive contribution to the human race, then it is ok with me. However, it appears that even if they prove their point, it seems quite out of chance that they may be able to influence our present day or future lives. They are just going to write history, which is history, only interpreted and not witnessed... if you know what I mean.... so no need to get too sensitized by the issue.

Wouldn't than it will be right to on some thing for the future than what happened in the past. Let me say a great point that I think it is.

As Muslims we know that Hazarat Adam and Amma huwa initially were in heaven, one of them ate the wheat tree fruit forbidden for then. They than realized, asked for forgiveness, after forgiving them, Allah Almighty than send them to earth.

Therefore we the man kind came from another planet which would be heaven and landed on earth, so about Dino's, Neanderthals and apes has no bearing on us. Wouldn't you agree.

 

[RustamShah]

Wouldn't than it will be right to on some thing for the future than what happened in the past. Let me say a great point that I think it is.

As Muslims we know that Hazarat Adam and Amma huwa initially were in heaven, one of them ate the wheat tree fruit forbidden for then. They than realized, asked for forgiveness, after forgiving them, Allah Almighty than send them to earth.

Therefore we the man kind came from another planet which would be heaven and landed on earth, so about Dino's, Neanderthals and apes has no bearing on us. Wouldn't you agree.

A great point ??? No problem my Brother you can have it (clap) but Adam and Huwa were created in Heaven which according to you located some where in our universe ? do you know how they travelled to Earth ? and where did they land ? and when, I mean how long ago ?

 

[ASQR1]

A great point ??? No problem my Brother you can have it (clap) but Adam and Huwa were created in Heaven which according to you located some where in our universe ? do you know how they travelled to Earth ? and where did they land ? and when, I mean how long ago ?

How did they travelled, the answer is same as how did our great prophet S.A.A.S. travelled to meet Allah S.W.T in miraj.

Now about DNA, of apes etc, Allah S.W.T created all living things, their systems created have many commonalities and making DNA somewhat similar does not mean that they were or are our ancestors.

 

[RustamShah]

How did they travelled, the answer is same as how did our great prophet S.A.A.S. travelled to meet Allah S.W.T in miraj.

Now about DNA, of apes etc, Allah S.W.T created all living things, their systems created have many commonalities and making DNA somewhat similar does not mean that they were or are our ancestors.

My dear its a great story but where are the evidences ? Adam and Huwa did not travel as Prophet did min Miraj so leave this right here, you need to find a source which back up your theory.