Three Myths About Muslims That Have Poisoned U.S. Politics

عام آدمی

MPA (400+ posts)


The attacks on two of the most prominent Muslims in American public life last week seemed to have come out of the blue. It appeared as if five Republican Representatives had arbitrarily chosen this moment to lash out at Hilary Clinton aide Huma Abedin and Representative Keith Ellison for no reason other than their religion, in a bid to discredit the entire concept of Muslims taking part in national politics and government.

A sequence of letters and public denunciations, led by Rep. Michele Bachmann and backed by four other Representatives, accused the two of being somehow indirectly affiliated with Egypts Muslim Brotherhood. The charges were so devoid of substance that senior Republican leaders and many members of Congress were quick to condemn them as bizarre and inappropriate. Still, even though they came from a marginal corner of Congress (albeit one representing millions of Americans), the language of the attacks was drawn from an increasingly mainstream set of claims about Muslims in the West. The letters from the Representatives argued that Muslims in the U.S. government are part of a wide plot involving numerous ordinary Muslim-Americans to impose shariah worldwide, to undermine the U.S. Constitution, and to advocate that Muslims not integrate into the cultures of non-Muslim countries. For a surprising number of Americans, these phrases represent commonsense thought about the Muslims in their midst.

These myths are strikingly similar to the set of charges that were commonly directed toward Roman Catholic and East European Jewish immigrants between the 1890s and the 1960s that these groups are disloyal, supportive of violence, unwilling to integrate into Western values, driven by a religion that is actually an ideology of conquest, and poised to swamp our society through high reproduction rates. The people who hold these ideas, then as now, are not simply racists or xenophobes but often liberals who have come to believe based on misleading or distorted information that religious-minority outsiders are a threat to their freedoms and liberties.

In the years after the Sept. 11 attacks, these ideas came to be applied to Muslims in the West in a sequence of bestselling books, YouTube videos, websites, op-eds and activist campaigns organized by a small circle of anti-immigration authors and activists, increasingly often with funding from conservative foundations. The notion of a Muslim tide penetrated the American imagination. The millions of people who bought their books and watched their videos may not have subscribed to the movements full idea of an Islamic plot to take over Western civilization through immigration. In many cases they were simply trying to understand the different and sometimes strange-looking newcomers in their midst, and the simultaneous emergence of Islamic terrorism but the effect has been to popularize an interlocking set of myths about Muslim immigration.
In my book The Myth of the Muslim Tide, I explain the history of these ideas and trace their emergence in twenty-first century popular and political thought, and provide a detailed, research-based examination of the realities behind them. Luckily, the past five years have seen a number of very large-scale international studies and surveys that have revolutionized our understanding of the beliefs, views, behaviours and loyalties of Muslim immigrants and their offspring. What emerges is a picture of a set of communities undergoing the classic experience of immigration and integration with the same difficulties and challenges experienced by poor Catholics and Jews in their time but burdened with a set of popular myths that are leading them increasingly to be rejected and marginalized by the wider population.

I have identified three nested groups of myths that together have created a widespread misunderstanding of Muslims in the West and poisoned our political environment.

1 The myth of extremism
Core to the Muslim tide ideology is the belief that the jihadist terror attacks of the past decade are the result of the immigration of Muslims to the countries of Europe and North America. It has become popular to believe that violent jihad is simply an extension or perhaps the essence of ordinary Islamic belief. Its not merely that theres a global jihad lurking within this religion, the popular Muslim tide author Mark Steyn wrote in a typical passage, but that the religion itself is a political project and in fact an imperial project.
Is Islamic extremism simply a more explicit extension of ordinary Islamic belief? Is it cheered, even if not actively supported, by Muslims throughout the West?
Our belief that Western Muslims are cheering terrorism is often based on a few misleading statistics. True, one survey showed that 7 per cent of U.S. Muslims feel that acts of violence against civilian targets are sometimes justified and an additional 1 per cent feel they are often justified. Thats a chilling figure, until you learn that, in the same survey, 24 per cent of non-Muslim Americans said that such attacks are sometimes justified and 6 per cent feel they are always justified.
In fact, numerous other studies show that support for violence, death penalties and honour killings among Western Muslims is usually similar to, and sometimes lower than, that of the general population. And support for figures such as Osama bin Laden has dwindled to the point of being barely above the levels in the general population.
Its the same when it comes to support for sharia law (which is simply the Islamic name for religious law, as with the Ten Commandments received by Moses and also used in Jewish and Christian holy law). In the United States, Gallup found that 46 per cent of citizens say they believe scripture should be a source of laws, while another 9 per cent feel it should be the only source of law numbers that dont differ much between Christians and Muslims and other studies show that Muslims in the United States and their community leaders have no measurable desire or ambition to make this reality. In France, where people are more secular, studies show that three-quarters of Muslims are actively opposed to sharia, almost half of them support the ban on headscarves in schools, and their rates of atheism and non-attendance of weekly prayers is about the same as that among Catholics. In other words, Muslims tend to adjust quickly to the level of religious observance around them.
But what about the terrorists themselves? There have been a number of major studies of their beliefs and motives in recent years, and what is clear is that almost none of them are motivated by religious faith or a desire to impose their beliefs on the world around them. Quite the contrary: it has repeatedly been shown that more religious Muslims are the least inclined to terrorism, and that those drawn to extremism are propelled by political, territorial and very often personal motives unrelated to faith. Not only that, but those Muslims who are living in tight-knit, religious-conservative communities and Islamic ghettoes are the least likely to go into political extremism or terrorism: Extremism tends be the preserve or fairly wealthy, educated Muslims who are isolated from other Muslims in relatively well-off neighborhoods. Its not the Muslim tide that is creating extremism, but rather the political beliefs of a few middle-class loners.
Indeed, a large-scale new study conducted by a group of U.S. researchers who examined the Koran passages quoted by 2,000 Islamic terrorists and supporters found no suggestion that any of them want to convert the West to Islam rather, their messages are of a nationalistic nature, based on preserving the separation of Islamic and non-Islamic worlds. Its no coincidence that Muslim tide figures such as Thilo Sarrazin in Germany and Christopher Caldwell in the United States express admiration for the civilizational strength of Muslim fundamentalist believers: They share the same core belief in independent and divergent civilizations.
2 The myth of non-integration
Underlying the belief that every Western Muslim is a potential terrorist is the larger idea that Muslim immigrants and their offspring are opposed to Western values and lifestyles and are seeking non-integrated parallel societies.
In terms of loyalties, Muslim immigrants express levels of support for their new countries that are similar and often higher than those of the native-born population. Yes, almost half of all American Muslims say they feel Muslim first and American second and 69% say religion is very important in their lives. But thats almost exactly the same as with American Christians, 46% of whom see themselves as Christian first and American second and 70% say religion is very important in their lives.
All data point to Muslim immigrants and their children integrating into their surrounding societies as fast as, and sometimes faster than, the poor Catholics and Jews of the last century. In education, Muslims are leaders: 40% of American Muslims have earned a post-secondary degree, making them the second most educated religious group after Jews (61%) and far ahead of average Americans (29%).
In political beliefs, Muslims differ little: an impressive 62% of American Muslims say that Israel and Palestine can be reconciled, a rate nearly identical to the larger American population (67%). And even on heated issues of gender and sexuality, Muslims are becoming notably integrated: In the U.S., 90% of Muslims say women should be allowed to work outside the home, and 7 our of 10 say there is no difference between male and female politicians views little different from those of Americans in general. And 39% of U.S. Muslims (and 41% of those born in America) said in 2009 that homosexuality should be accepted lower than the 58% acceptance rate among Americans in general, but considerably higher than the 27% response given by U.S. Muslims four years earlier. In other words, they are falling into the patterns of mainstream American belief at an astonishingly rapid rate. These are not the patterns of a self-isolating parallel society, but of people struggling to become as American as the people around them.
3. The myth of population
Wrapped around these images of violence and separatism is a gnawing sense that the Muslims are arriving in droves and will soon outnumber the rest of us. Even people who dont subscribe to the notion of stealth sharia and theological conquest tend to believe that Muslims have inherently larger family sizes and therefore are poised perhaps deliberately to become majorities in European countries and American states, if not everywhere. Every author of Muslim tide literature expresses this idea in more or less dramatic form, and it is probably the reason why this movement has quickly become so popular.
Yet this is the most misleading myth of them all. Muslim family sizes and population growth rates are falling faster than among any other population in the world. Even in the most religious Islamic countries, family sizes are fast falling below the population-growth rate of 2.1 children per family. In Iran, where the average number had 7 children in the 1980s, it has fallen to 1.7 lower than in France. In Turkey, it is 2.1 children; in Lebanon, 1.9; in Tunisia, 2.0; in Indonesia, 2.19 and falling fast. Bosnian Muslims, at the heart of so many of the Eurabia theories of population takeover, have 1.23 children per family the very lowest rate in Europe.
What happens when they emigrate? Some observers have noted that Muslims have larger families when they immigrate to the West than they did in their home countries, fuelling theories of conquest by reproduction. Yet these are misleading: Because immigrants have most of their children within a few years of arrival, their official fertility rates are skewed unnaturally high. And Muslim immigrants overwhelmingly tend to come from rural regions, leading to higher family sizes than their originating countrys general population.
There have been a number of very large-scale projections of Muslim populations conducted by respected organizations over the past few years. All of them show that the population-growth rate among Muslim immigrants and their offspring is falling extremely fast in every Western country, and is poised to converge with the native-born fertility rates by mid-century.
In the United States, Muslims tend to be very new immigrants 63% of them were born in another country, and 71% of those immigrants arrived after 1990 so they have a comparatively high population-growth rate. In 20 years, there will be 6.3 million Muslims in the United States, making them, at 1.7% of the population, almost as numerous as Jews and Episcopalians. American Muslims currently have 2.5 children per family, higher than the U.S. average of 2.1. But that rate is falling, so that their population in 20 years is likely to be close to a peak: The children of these immigrants appear to be having about the same number of children that average Americans do.
Declining family sizes are a clear indicator of social, economic and educational integration: When people are adopting a host societys values, their family sizes converge, and their use of birth control increases. This is demonstrably happening throughout the West.
Whatever problems are plaguing Muslim communities and they are numerous a secret desire to impose an alien religion upon an uncomprehending West is not one of them. The Muslims in our midst are following a path taken by millions of religious minorities who have arrived, adjusted, struggled against popular myths, and become integral parts of our societies. A simple examination of the facts shows this to be the case. We just have to take the time to look.
http://dougsaunders.net/2012/07/three-myths-about-muslims-that-have-poisoned-u-s-politics/
 

guest

Councller (250+ posts)
gus article, with everyting made up to fool western liberal audiences. huma abedin clearly had links to muslim brotherhood and its front organizations all her life. the thing is that it is per se not criminal to have links, but she should certainly not be at such high positions in the state department with all sorts of secret clearances. secondly as far as integration is concerned, all the mullahs in britain and europe (much lesser in US) do is to spread hatred amongst the muslim populations which live in the same countries against their respective states, against jews, homosexuals etc. there are countless examples of that. similarly almost all social studies in europe of immigrant muslim population shows that they are not at all integrated, always demand more and more rights, threaten other minorities and are the largest chunk of prison population and least educated, when europe gives u free state education and u still are uneducated, even allah cannot help u. lastly the population myth or reality is probably the only point which makes sense. but rather than western anti0islamists, its the european and american mullahs who make such claims that they will out-populate western societies. if that ever happens, we will surely go to another dar age for long long time.
 

Mr.Restless

Senator (1k+ posts)
inshort,Muslims mistake might have poisioned american politics BUT Jewish lobby has more negative effect on American politics..american see the world through jewish prospective
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
the last one i.e., the myth of population........its the muslims only who are claiming that islam is spreading and their population is rising in europe and america.......if the claim is true then it cannot be a myth........
 
G

gotti

Guest
the last one i.e., the myth of population........its the muslims only who are claiming that islam is spreading and their population is rising in europe and america.......if the claim is true then it cannot be a myth........

I must disagree not because I care about the thread but because of the inaccuracy of your statement. In Europe, xenophobic groups were the first ones who made this video:


There are thousands of other examples to show that this "myth" is spread and quoted in all sorts of mainstream publications that I don't have time to share with you as you are predisposed to thinking a certain way for which I am not responsible and neither am I taking the responsibility of promoting open-mindedness and acceptance towards pluralism in your stubborn brain.
 

Zaidi Qasim

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
gus article, with everyting made up to fool western liberal audiences. huma abedin clearly had links to muslim brotherhood and its front organizations all her life. the thing is that it is per se not criminal to have links, but she should certainly not be at such high positions in the state department with all sorts of secret clearances. secondly as far as integration is concerned, all the mullahs in britain and europe (much lesser in US) do is to spread hatred amongst the muslim populations which live in the same countries against their respective states, against jews, homosexuals etc. there are countless examples of that. similarly almost all social studies in europe of immigrant muslim population shows that they are not at all integrated, always demand more and more rights, threaten other minorities and are the largest chunk of prison population and least educated, when europe gives u free state education and u still are uneducated, even allah cannot help u. lastly the population myth or reality is probably the only point which makes sense. but rather than western anti0islamists, its the european and american mullahs who make such claims that they will out-populate western societies. if that ever happens, we will surely go to another dar age for long long time.


Your rhetoric seem that you have been attending the mullah's school of thought very closely. If assimulation means you leave you values and adopt the western values then it is not possible within the realim of Islam. The word integration has been used very cleaverly to hide the purposeful assimulation of totall change.As far as Huma Adendin is concerned, as you said that having links to a group is not forbidden and criminal, why stop at her asking her not to have a position within the state department. The senator Joe Libermen is well known jews sympathizer. He is also a dual national of Isreal as well. He had been holding various powerful positions within the american administartion . He has been the member of armed service committe and pushed many american presidents to support Isreal against their oppresion of Palestinians. He kept a group of american sympathizers with him as assistants holding positions within the former governments. There are many other jewish sympathizers who are working closely with other position holders in state department.

As far as your stereo typing of many slogans which neo conservatives use to malign muslims is not something people are not aware of. The wave of new muslims genration which grew out of the poverty of their immigrant parent in last half a century , is not contend with the treatment of second class citizens within their own birth places. The secular nature of these socities were unable to tolerate a foreign religion grown in their traditional monoply areas. The early skinhead mobes torching the houses of the immigrats forced the new generation of muslims to demonstarte that it is no longer feasible to target them. The recent messacre of sikh community in America is a stark reminder of their hatred and ignorance towards the foreign immigrants as whole. I think , the common American requires more education that the immigrants who are more aware of the global events that just their own homeland. The ignorance of American citizens are appalling.
 

guest

Councller (250+ posts)
first af all stop using the sikh massacre to your own narrow purposes. there is no voilence or injustice visited upon muslim populations living in the west which is greater than the violence seen even in the most advanced muslim countries. simple thing justice in EU/USA > justice in islamc world.

secondly the studies i read about the lack of education/high crime etc in muslim communities, also point out that the same is not true of other immigrants. your whole argument below will fall flat on its face simply because studies of hindus and sikhs in britain, or west african immigrants in germany or surinamese immigrants in Netherlands clearly shows that the have atleast economically integrated much better into european society. how do u explain that?

the simple truth is that unlike islamic countires in specific and most thrid world countries in particular, no immigrants and especially no muslim is treated as second-class citizen in any western country. many muslims in western european countries who hate their own countries are themselves welfare bums.

lastly your point about jewsih americans is also facetious. jewish society as represented by mr .lieberman, or the country of israel shares 99% of the same values as the western countries. so even if they takeover the US government or outpopulate the rest of the ethnicities, no one is worried because they share the same values. they will not then go and setup an apartheid state. is huma abedin type muslims become te largest population group in USA, believe me it will take less then 1 election for USA to jump from 230 years of contitutional democracy with a modern legal system to a shariah based apartheid state.

Your rhetoric seem that you have been attending the mullah's school of thought very closely. If assimulation means you leave you values and adopt the western values then it is not possible within the realim of Islam. The word integration has been used very cleaverly to hide the purposeful assimulation of totall change.As far as Huma Adendin is concerned, as you said that having links to a group is not forbidden and criminal, why stop at her asking her not to have a position within the state department. The senator Joe Libermen is well known jews sympathizer. He is also a dual national of Isreal as well. He had been holding various powerful positions within the american administartion . He has been the member of armed service committe and pushed many american presidents to support Isreal against their oppresion of Palestinians. He kept a group of american sympathizers with him as assistants holding positions within the former governments. There are many other jewish sympathizers who are working closely with other position holders in state department.

As far as your stereo typing of many slogans which neo conservatives use to malign muslims is not something people are not aware of. The wave of new muslims genration which grew out of the poverty of their immigrant parent in last half a century , is not contend with the treatment of second class citizens within their own birth places. The secular nature of these socities were unable to tolerate a foreign religion grown in their traditional monoply areas. The early skinhead mobes torching the houses of the immigrats forced the new generation of muslims to demonstarte that it is no longer feasible to target them. The recent messacre of sikh community in America is a stark reminder of their hatred and ignorance towards the foreign immigrants as whole. I think , the common American requires more education that the immigrants who are more aware of the global events that just their own homeland. The ignorance of American citizens are appalling.
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I must disagree not because I care about the thread but because of the inaccuracy of your statement. In Europe, xenophobic groups were the first ones who made this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj-ceoxHc4U

There are thousands of other examples to show that this "myth" is spread and quoted in all sorts of mainstream publications that I don't have time to share with you as you are predisposed to thinking a certain way for which I am not responsible and neither am I taking the responsibility of promoting open-mindedness and acceptance towards pluralism in your stubborn brain.
what was the inaccuracy?....you could have just said that the claim is not true and so its a myth....
the point is not who made the first video, but whether muslims are claiming that their numbers are rising in western countries or not?
you just have to say yes or no and you can do that without resorting to name calling......
 
G

gotti

Guest
what was the inaccuracy?....you could have just said that the claim is not true and so its a myth....
the point is not who made the first video, but whether muslims are claiming that their numbers are rising in western countries or not?
you just have to say yes or no and you can do that without resorting to name calling......

I apologize if my words have caused you any discomfort and I retract any word, phrase or sentence in the post that might have done so.

With that said, I was referring to the following choice of words


the last one i.e., the myth of population........its the muslims only who are claiming that islam is spreading and their population is rising in europe and america.......if the claim is true then it cannot be a myth........

In this I assumed that you said that Muslims are "boasting" that their numbers are increasing and they will take over the world.

While true in some cases, majority of the Muslims do not feel that this is an accurate representation on their view of the world.

This is especially true in places like India, Europe and parts of Southern US where xenophobic crowds are rallied by radical preachers to target vulnerable Muslims.

These people, majority of whom have escaped terrible conditions in their own countries or have migrated to seek a better life (such as yourself while migrating to Canada) do not deserve to be looked at from this lens.

Similarly, you would not appreciate being targeted for having a slightly visible population in Ontario (although, due to a lack of a turban, you might feel exempt but remember, racism and extremism has no understanding of cultural differences. As you know, most Sikhs were killed as they were likely confused for being Muslim).

If someone was to target you, it would not necessarily be a comfortable experience. This thread was posted to promote acceptance and prevent these things from being presented as true just like that video, which showcased highly inflated figures.

Once again, I would like to have further discussions with you and I can only hope you are not offended by anything that I might have said before, or now.
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I apologize if my words have caused you any discomfort and I retract any word, phrase or sentence in the post that might have done so.

With that said, I was referring to the following choice of words




In this I assumed that you said that Muslims are "boasting" that their numbers are increasing and they will take over the world.

While true in some cases, majority of the Muslims do not feel that this is an accurate representation on their view of the world.

This is especially true in places like India, Europe and parts of Southern US where xenophobic crowds are rallied by radical preachers to target vulnerable Muslims.

These people, majority of whom have escaped terrible conditions in their own countries or have migrated to seek a better life (such as yourself while migrating to Canada) do not deserve to be looked at from this lens.

Similarly, you would not appreciate being targeted for having a slightly visible population in Ontario (although, due to a lack of a turban, you might feel exempt but remember, racism and extremism has no understanding of cultural differences. As you know, most Sikhs were killed as they were likely confused for being Muslim).

If someone was to target you, it would not necessarily be a comfortable experience. This thread was posted to promote acceptance and prevent these things from being presented as true just like that video, which showcased highly inflated figures.

Once again, I would like to have further discussions with you and I can only hope you are not offended by anything that I might have said before, or now.
Well there was no discomfort as such......anyway thanks for the concern and apologies accepted.......
By saying targeted I think you are pointing to violence and nobody is condoning that and in fact violence against the visible minorities should be strictly condemned......but we are not discussing that......
We are discussing the fear in certain quarters of western societies about the rising muslim polulation and how it becomes a political tool......now not only this is boasted by muslims even if it is a minority, but also it is a fact because of immigration and to some extent higher birth rates......now I believe that these fears are unfounded at least in the near to medium term future and agree that the figures are exaggerated in the video......
you have to agree that islam is a political ideology too....also there is question of integration in the society which is comparatively less among muslims......there is no right or wrong here and as long as an immigrant is law abiding degree of integration should be a matter of individual choice.....all these factors this plays on their minds and hence the may be the xenophobia and politics.......
 
G

gotti

Guest
Well there was no discomfort as such......anyway thanks for the concern and apologies accepted.......
By saying targeted I think you are pointing to violence and nobody is condoning that and in fact violence against the visible minorities should be strictly condemned......but we are not discussing that......
We are discussing the fear in certain quarters of western societies about the rising muslim polulation and how it becomes a political tool......now not only this is boasted by muslims even if it is a minority, but also it is a fact because of immigration and to some extent higher birth rates......now I believe that these fears are unfounded at least in the near to medium term future and agree that the figures are exaggerated in the video......
you have to agree that islam is a political ideology too....also there is question of integration in the society which is comparatively less among muslims......there is no right or wrong here and as long as an immigrant is law abiding degree of integration should be a matter of individual choice.....all these factors this plays on their minds and hence the may be the xenophobia and politics.......

To answer your question about integration (by the way, nicely played...you almost showed yourself as someone who is neutral)....just google how involved Muslims in your local area are in politics. Democracy is the root of integration. That shall answer most of your concerns about integration.
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
To answer your question about integration (by the way, nicely played...you almost showed yourself as someone who is neutral)....just google how involved Muslims in your local area are in politics. Democracy is the root of integration. That shall answer most of your concerns about integration.
so you only had to say about integration....btw don't have to google anything, integration is not only political.....I think you already know......
 
G

gotti

Guest
so you only had to say about integration....btw don't have to google anything, integration is not only political.....I think you already know......

Please elaborate on how else you achieved integration in Ontario, Canada?

I hope that you aren't speaking from any preconceived notions that you brought along from India where bigotry and discrimination towards Muslims is acceptable by a certain group of people that are proud of their "majority", yet nothing else...BTW, have the Muslims not integrated in India?

What I think that you and I both know is that using general terms like "Muslims" and painting a broader community with the same brush does no good to promoting peace and harmony (assuming that you do believe in those concepts...)
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Please elaborate on how else you achieved integration in Ontario, Canada?

I hope that you aren't speaking from any preconceived notions that you brought along from India where bigotry and discrimination towards Muslims is acceptable by a certain group of people that are proud of their "majority", yet nothing else...BTW, have the Muslims not integrated in India?

What I think that you and I both know is that using general terms like "Muslims" and painting a broader community with the same brush does no good to promoting peace and harmony (assuming that you do believe in those concepts...)
Well you are trying to play smart, I am in no mood for your red herring and in continuing this discussion further....don't get it why you bring in India where muslims are not immigrants when the discussion is about western countries.....and thanks for all the charges of bigotry and discrimination....
 
G

gotti

Guest
Well you are trying to play smart, I am in no mood for your red herring and in continuing this discussion further....don't get it why you bring in India where muslims are not immigrants when the discussion is about western countries.....and thanks for all the charges of bigotry and discrimination....

It's not a red herring and neither am I blaming anything of you. I am sorry if you felt that way but I didn't say that YOU are bigoted or believe in discrimination. I was referring to a "certain group of people" and I said I hope that you aren't a part of that and by that I meant that you aren't.

I understand being an Indian on a Pakistani forum isn't easy since you are being blamed for all sorts of stuff but I must guarantee that I have not insinuated anything negative towards you.

I was referring to Western countries. I just asked how should Muslims integrate in the West using what you did as an example that they could follow or do what you did and they didn't.

I also thought that you agreed with me in promoting peace and harmony, as well. Not sure why I am pushing the wrong buttons here but I am willing to delete my comments if you think I have wronged you.
 

Zaidi Qasim

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
first af all stop using the sikh massacre to your own narrow purposes. there is no voilence or injustice visited upon muslim populations living in the west which is greater than the violence seen even in the most advanced muslim countries. simple thing justice in EU/USA > justice in islamc world.

secondly the studies i read about the lack of education/high crime etc in muslim communities, also point out that the same is not true of other immigrants. your whole argument below will fall flat on its face simply because studies of hindus and sikhs in britain, or west african immigrants in germany or surinamese immigrants in Netherlands clearly shows that the have atleast economically integrated much better into european society. how do u explain that?

the simple truth is that unlike islamic countires in specific and most thrid world countries in particular, no immigrants and especially no muslim is treated as second-class citizen in any western country. many muslims in western european countries who hate their own countries are themselves welfare bums.

lastly your point about jewsih americans is also facetious. jewish society as represented by mr .lieberman, or the country of israel shares 99% of the same values as the western countries. so even if they takeover the US government or outpopulate the rest of the ethnicities, no one is worried because they share the same values. they will not then go and setup an apartheid state. is huma abedin type muslims become te largest population group in USA, believe me it will take less then 1 election for USA to jump from 230 years of contitutional democracy with a modern legal system to a shariah based apartheid state.

Obviously you wouldn't want to talk about a crime solely based on the hatred of the immigrants and non caucasian in USA.It would be a tentamount to admit the racist nature of the western socities and it would not be productive for some one like you. Burning of the one of the muslim mosques in another state won't even bother someone like you either. The integration of the same mind and same values is not really an integration. It is merely a locality issue and moving from one set of rules society to same set of rule society. Which of the studies you are talking about which shows the Muslims generation is behind in education even further to Hindus Communities and Sick Communities. ? Do you have any evidence of this so called studies you been screaming about ?

Ask those 2nd generation of immigrants especially in Europe and Particularly in England about their future prospects compare to the caucasian community generation . May be perhaps you should also do some studies to take their centiments in to account to understand how they feel. As far as the welfare bums are concerned , there are propotionally less immigratns on welfare budget than the local population living on different communities across Europe and Canada/ USA. Majority of the immigrants in European and western countries are hard working people and earn their living working multiple jobs in societies where they live. Where do you get the ideas that only because of the welfare distribution system is the less biased, there is no 2nd class treatments of immigrants in western countries.

You are very clear about the Jews and their influence in Amercian Societies. They both have the same goal and purposes. You can't take one from the other and both of them busy helping an apartheid state in Isreal , away from their own borders. And you are also right to see the real face of the American administration policies which gets approved from the bosses of Gambling threatre and Rich icon of American Isreali jewish communities across USA. For those who still consider american as a neutral and fair country in respect to their decisions, your post should be an eye opener. Jewish wealth is being showered to help sustain the illegal occupation of Palestinian terroteries. May I say that Jewish money is buying American votes.
 
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guest

Councller (250+ posts)
FBI hate crime statistics published every year since a long time show that max number of hate crimes (65% last year) occur against jews. muslim americans are at a paltry 13%. go and read it. whether one church or one mosque is burned, ultimately arguments should be based on statistics which are meticulously compiled in most western countries.

secondly there is a great resource called google scholr at scholar.google.com. go and search there any amount of studies on how muslims are integrated economically/educationally/socially in western societies, you will see exactly what i have mentioned. it takes me barely any work to post studies here. of course if you then claim that these studies are jewish conspiracies, then i cannot help you.

lastly i never said america is a fair or neutral country. but what about sweden or norway. they are not in any war on terror. why are all studies showing that muslims have not integrated at all in those societies. also i agree israel is an apartheid state. but isnt most of the middle east composed of apartheid states? what about saudi arabia? who is saying jewish money is not buying american system. why doesnt ur great mujahid countryof saudi arabia buy out american politics and help the palestinians. well the harsh reality is that inspite of all its apartheid, israel is a much better country for its citizens (arab or jewish) than any neighbour. why are not the arab citizens of israel migrating to other islamic countries, like the pakistani hindus are doing? think about it. no coutry of civilization has everything right, but islamic countries cannot compare to any western society.

Obviously you wouldn't want to talk about a crime solely based on the hatred of the immigrants and non caucasian in USA.It would be a tentamount to admit the racist nature of the western socities and it would not be productive for some one like you. Burning of the one of the muslim mosques in another state won't even bother someone like you either. The integration of the same mind and same values is not really an integration. It is merely a locality issue and moving from one set of rules society to same set of rule society. Which of the studies you are talking about which shows the Muslims generation is behind in education even further to Hindus Communities and Sick Communities. ? Do you have any evidence of this so called studies you been screaming about ?

Ask those 2nd generation of immigrants especially in Europe and Particularly in England about their future prospects compare to the caucasian community generation . May be perhaps you should also do some studies to take their centiments in to account to understand how they feel. As far as the welfare bums are concerned , there are propotionally less immigratns on welfare budget than the local population living on different communities across Europe and Canada/ USA. Majority of the immigrants in European and western countries are hard working people and earn their living working multiple jobs in societies where they live. Where do you get the ideas that only because of the welfare distribution system is the less biased, there is no 2nd class treatments of immigrants in western countries.

You are very clear about the Jews and their influence in Amercian Societies. They both have the same goal and purposes. You can't take one from the other and both of them busy helping an apartheid state in Isreal , away from their own borders. And you are also right to see the real face of the American administration policies which gets approved from the bosses of Gambling threatre and Rich icon of American Isreali jewish communities across USA. For those who still consider american as a neutral and fair country in respect to their decisions, your post should be an eye opener. Jewish wealth is being showered to help sustain the illegal occupation of Palestinian terroteries. May I say that Jewish money is buying American votes.