انصافیو اور کچھ یاد رکھو نہ رکھو -- یہ ضرووور یاد رکھنا
- Thread starter RajaRawal111
- Start date
Eyeaan
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What about usher - what kind of tax is that and who were to pay.
Is a (islamic) state restricted to provide/assist public or individual services. If it is not restricted (or this question is even not even remotely relevant) then how government is to pay for it.
----
Are you suggesting only wealth tax be imposed and somehow income tax is against the poor.
Are you for/against state owning the currency. When currency was introduced in arab world anyway.
Does zakaat means that government can't impose any other tax/charges but how can you opine that on the basis of quran/hadith.
---
Islam is not a system of running day to day affair of government or a political (or any) theory Nor it is for and against a certain structure of government. If you think otherwise, you are merely making up story for your personal biases on the name of Islam. (and I have no confusion about this statement in terms of history of islam and fiqa - please don't play some scholar or 'know better' to counter this.) Neither islam is some manual for war theory or defense.
Please don't put Islam into boxes for your personal agenda or temporal understanding. Adding something to Islam is as much a crime as dropping some from the clear instructions of god.
However A) Islam sets the principles (some are clear and universally accepted, and some are subject to debate as per theological differences) and B) sets many goals of a islamic state in several spheres of state and life (and not for all) and C) puts definite limits on the conduct of rulers and society enlarge. Besides quraan, hadith is prime source to understand those principles and goals. A Islamic government must adhere to to those principles and strive to achieve goals. Structure and organization of the government is an irrelevant temporal matter.
----
Please don't get into a meaningless and empty rhetoric which has neither practical value nor is based on islam. However you have every right to make suggestions how goals of islamic state can be achieved without posing for a 'sole malik' of islam.
----
Once upon a time madodi sahib wrote similar simplistic manuals and talk about zakat etc.as penacea of all economics, morals and governance, making wild claims. Zia called jamaat scholars to devise zakaat system - what happened was not unexpected because claims of mododi sahib and many others religious scholars in that era (1930-1970) were wrong and utterly shortsighted - both in terms of understanding of islam and for a political theory.
Last edited:
Husaink
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
انصافیاں نوں تے تیریاں بجلیاں بنا بنا کے پھاوا ہو جانا وی یاد اے ہن ویہلا بہہ کے عمران خان دیاں اٹھنیاں بیٹھنیاں دیکھیا کر ، جدوں چھتر کھان دا موڈ بنے تے ایہہ فورم حاضر اے
Khan125
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
begharat.... tu sony mian ore qatri butni baaji k waadoon k barey me soch, k kitney wafa hoey kitna jhoot bola ore kitney fraud thy....
Would commit treachery with nation if backed down on tax issue: PM Imran
ISLAMABAD (Dunya News) – Prime Minister Imran Khan on Wednesday said that it would be treachery with the nation if he backed down on the issue of tax.
Addressing a ceremony in Islamabad on Wednesday, he said that implementation of principals of State of Madina is compulsory for economic development, adding that justice was the basic principal of the State of Madina.
The prime minister said that Pakistan cannot be run like it was being run in the past, adding that the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf-led (PTI) government will make Pakistan a great country.
Imran Khan went on to say that those involved in the money laundering have their own interests.
“Country’s debt soared to Rs30,000 billion from Rs6000 billion,” he said and added efforts were underway to introduce reforms in the Federal Board of Revenue (FBR).
Business community has donated millions of rupees for the construction of Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital.
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Told you that was just the boring once. And I will not tell you what he used to say about Qatil league MQM and about lotas and corrupts he has alliance with and are part of PTI. Because you have all heard about it. Here are just a few interesting once. And took me just 10 minutes to find.
1: he was against metro in Lahore and was asking to start a train instead.
2: Austerity and PM house and presidency expenditures ---- literally my foot and Kukh Laanut
PM House budget raised by 18.86pc, presidency by 4.24pc
ISLAMABAD: Despite making very tall claims of austerity by the government and increasing living standard of the masses, Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf led govt in its first budget impose high taxes on...
www.thenews.com.pk
3: Non stop Ranting on price hikes
4: Amnesty scheme a fraud to help riches
Imran Khan criticizes govt’s tax amnesty scheme | SAMAA
HYDERABAD: Imran Khan has said that an investigation will be held against those who sought tax amnesty. The Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf chairman said that his party rejects the federal government’s tax amnesty scheme. “First they steal money then introduce tax amnesty schemes,” Khan added. The PTI...
www.samaa.tv
5: Acting as enemy of state
Civil disobedience: Imran, supporters burn electricity bills at sit-in | The Express Tribune
PTI chief says he will convince Karachi’s residents to follow his example
These are just few. You do an exercise for your self. Write "Imran Khan against ______" fill in the blank with anything he has done and google it. You will enjoy it man I can bet.
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
صحیح کہیا اے جپانی جی تسی --- جس دن چھتر نہ پین اس دن ساڈا پنڈا دکھن لگنا اے - پر اس توں پہلے باندراں نی پوچھل تے اگ لا کے تماشا دیکھنے نا مزہ ہی کج ہور اے
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Amazing man it is amazing how short memory you people have. Telling you truth. I used to be IK fan, than i saw an enemy of state. This happened in front of my eyes. And I saw Ik begging umpire for his figure. I turned around and never went back there.
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
بہن جی مجھے مریم کے خلاف سننے میں کچھ برا نہیں لگتا - آپ مجھے اس کی مثالیں دے دے کر وقت برباد کرتی ہیں - میری کوئی ایک پوسٹ نکال کر دکھا دیں جس میں میں نے اس کو کبھی لیڈر کہا ہو -- میں نکے گنجے کا شیدائی ہوں --- اگر کوئی ایسا دن آیا کہ نکا گنجا سیاست سے باہر نکل گیا اور یہ بی بی اوپر آ گئی تو میں بھی نون لیگی نہیں رہوں گا
رہی بات نکے گنجے کی کرپشن کی - تو آج تک حکومت نے کوئی الزام اس پر نہیں لگایا - آشیانہ کا فرد جرم آپ نے خود پڑھنے سے انکار کر دیا تھا - ورنہ میری بات سمجھ جاتیں --- منی لانڈرنگ کے کیس کو میں غور سے دیکھ رہا ہوں - نہ میں نے ان کے خلاف نہ حق میں آج تک کچھ لکھا ہے --- ہمیشہ کہا ہے کہ کیس عدالت میں آنے دیں میرا وقت اس دن سے شروع ہو گا
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I am not a scholar, but i can add some to what you guys have written. (( totally non political))
Zakat is only for the financial help of the poor muslims of the area in which you live. It can be used by the collectors within some limits (if they are not free to do anything else). Some part can be used for Musafirs -fee sbeel illah.
Jiziya is only for Non muslims living in a muslim state and it is totally a tax which state is allowed to use as it wants. There was never any tax on Muslims in Riyasut-e-Madeena.
Hazrat abu bakar fought with people in taaef who refused paying Zakaat (not JIzaya as Citixen X said). And main reason of fight was that they were flowered of Muselma Kazaab who claimed false prophet-hood. There was another woman Sajja who claimed prophet hood around same time.
In short, Muslims were never taxed. But I dont mean to say we should not have any tax now. In a modern complex Govts system the tax is vital and is separate from Zakaat. Zakaat should be left alone as the private matter of Muslims with Allah. State has all the right to put tax, and there is nothing un-Islamic in this.
The concept of Riyasut-e Madina is nothing but a slogan. It did not have the basic structure on which the Govt system exists right now.
sensible
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Told you that was just the boring once. And I will not tell you what he used to say about Qatil league MQM and about lotas and corrupts he has alliance with and are part of PTI. Because you have all heard about it. Here are just a few interesting once. And took me just 10 minutes to find.
1: he was against metro in Lahore and was asking to start a train instead.
2: Austerity and PM house and presidency expenditures ---- literally my foot and Kukh Laanut
PM House budget raised by 18.86pc, presidency by 4.24pc
ISLAMABAD: Despite making very tall claims of austerity by the government and increasing living standard of the masses, Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf led govt in its first budget impose high taxes on...
3: Non stop Ranting on price hikes
4: Amnesty scheme a fraud to help riches
Imran Khan criticizes govt’s tax amnesty scheme | SAMAA
HYDERABAD: Imran Khan has said that an investigation will be held against those who sought tax amnesty. The Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf chairman said that his party rejects the federal government’s tax amnesty scheme. “First they steal money then introduce tax amnesty schemes,” Khan added. The PTI...
5: Acting as enemy of state
Civil disobedience: Imran, supporters burn electricity bills at sit-in | The Express Tribune
PTI chief says he will convince Karachi’s residents to follow his exampletribune.com.pk
These are just few. You do an exercise for your self. Write "Imran Khan against ______" fill in the blank with anything he has done and google it. You will enjoy it man I can bet.
As expected, factually incorrect information and everything said taken out of context to serve your own purpose.
First of all, change of strategy or change of path cannot be called u-turn. One can set a certain aim & claim to achieve it but if ground realities change, one can always change the goal according to the situation.
Atif Mian was one such example. Was he a good choice? Of course. Was it wise to keep fighting for his position when it was impossible to make people understand that religious beliefs have nothing to do with technical expertise? No.
PM House's budget has been reduced by 40%. Do not quote incorrect information.
Price hikes ranting is always applicable. Even today's opposition has the right to do so. However, PTI's criticism was that international oil prices were at an all time low but PMLN did not pass the benefit onto the common man. Instead they charged as much as 50% tax on petroleum products. PTI reduced the taxes & suffered as they could not meet the revenue targets.
It was not an amnesty scheme. It was an asset declaration scheme. It managed to get the people to declare assets worth Rs3000 billion. That is a huge huge amount & obviously it is the rich who had to declare. Now they will have to pay taxes on these assets. So, it is utterly dishonest to say it has helped the rich.
IK's civil disobedience call was not out of the blue. He was protesting against a govt. which came into being by rigging & the rulers were dishonest to the core. Therefore in order to pressurize the govt. he gave this call. Nothing to do with enmity of the state.
Citizen X
President (40k+ posts)
Correction, its not a slogan but a role model of qualities of good governance which we hope to come close to achieving, which consists of among other things justice for all, law and order and with the state specially looking out for the most weak and venerable people of society.
? ? ?
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I don't know how to respond to this post. You're assuming things about me then responding to those assumptions yourself.
There is contradictions within your post. You say Islam has nothing for how a government should be run and to suggest that is adding things to Islam then you contradict yourself and say how Islam has rules on how things should be run.
I don't need to remind you Islam is a way of life and war, governance, sleeping, waking up, everything comes under way of life. If you don't agree with that, who am i to impose it upon you.
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Mujhey bilkun nheen puta Kyoon aya turs keh men koi TV talk show nheen dekhta. Not even single.
RajaRawal111
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I wanted to tell you something. Obviously you can defend everything. Even the delibrate act of state's Enemy. It all is your conscience. And i am taking it as a different openion. Not taking you as any lower level person.
Even though it was enough for me to understand IK's core values/understanding. Telling yiu truth. I voted for Sheikh Rasheed. And i admitted PMLN won in 2013 because i could see its wave. Similarly i did not vote for Sheikhu in 2018 but i could see legitimate winning of PTI.
Obviously, we can agree to disagree. But just wanted to highlight a simple fact. IK or any PM can just try to raise taxes. Failing at something that is absolute necessity for the country does not mean u-turn.
Eyeaan
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I apologize. Not just I was assuming too much on your part but my tone was a bit rude; this is among the harms of internet when we sometime go overboard but can't think of being harsh to anyone at personal level. There's another mistake that we (or maybe only I) indulge is being over critical to fellow muslims while there are many others whose intent were to undermine Islam or harm Muslims but we are extra polite and conscious with them.
Taxes: Partially on the background of my comment was recent and very old 'fatwas' about 'taxes being haraam - on the basis of couple of ahadith. Those ahadith and fatwas are about 'poll tax' - a tax imposed on 'a person' as was the practices in the past in several kingdoms especially for the slaves or subject tribe and nations. Of course that kind of tax is haraam - However 'poll tax' can't be extended to tax based on income, sales, wealth etc. there is no disagreement regarding poll tax.
Yet a number of recent (and very old) fatwas that prohibit taxes on the bases of making it similar to theft -and from several quranic ayahs prohibiting muslims taking due from the fellow muslims (by compulsion). (Sadaqaat etc. are of course neither permanent nor compulsory. and out of this debate). Hence it is argued that a muslim ruler in a musim country cannot impose (permanent and faxed) taxes to fellow muslims in a islamic state. (Of course, the question of non-muslim rulers or non-muslims countries is not part of such fatwas).
Taxes are not 'wajib' in any way or a islamic duty per se; except when argued in terms of an mutual agreement.
Only if your opposition to taxes (except for the poll tax) is based on being it haraam or you think it is against the quranic injunctions, than we a have a debate and have to look into the economics and politics and into the nature of modern state. Further to see what actually such fatwas instruct in practice in the current times, and we need to look into the nature of fiat currencies and welfare state. Further we may look deep into the rule of Rashidun and or on principles of theological differences of later imams.
As far as islam being a 'way of life' is concerned - of course it is Deen.
Religions are always about morals, human societies and prohibitions and guidance. That's one important aspect of the religion -other is about spirituality, enhancement of morals and the purpose within theological framework. Yet without forgetting the duties imposed by Quran, the purpose of man in Islam is to recognize and worship god; and to recognize that human affairs and existence is of no gain at all for the Creator - nor in any way associated to him except for his names.
Whatever be the 'way of life' it is a tool and not the prime purpose. Others may deems that the 'way of life/current existence' is to reach to a knowledge and recognition that human and human affairs are insignificant and not of more worth than illusion (but not exactly an allusion) - and only that recognition brings to higher moral, spiritually or worldly if one distinguished between the two. That's never to say to undermines sharia - Huge literature exists on this finer question and I wont be able to do more than copy/paste.
Only on these terms, when 'political Islam' leads to an theology and psychology that pits muslim primarily for political rule of muslims or god's intent to impose rule on the humans or conquering the worlds - or when 'rationalist Islamist' find science and scientific theories, putting too much on human intellect or the the 'utilitarian Islamist' who judge and analyze Islam on the basis of material gains for muslims etc. There are several theory laden attitudes among the muslim scholars. I'm not opposed to them but perhaps at times people overdo Islam for worldly affairs that (perhaps) takes us away from the core spirituality of religion and from prime purpose of the Humans in Islam.
I don't know about others, but whatever is meant by 'the way of life' isn't exactly clear to me Others might have much better knowledge which I don't. Take it for a fact than a mere statement to make a point.
