Does the Holy Qur'an really refer to Abraha and his army in Surah Al Fil?

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)

This is what majority of Muslims believe




But let's look into it based on archaeological research , plus genuine knowledge about geography and wildlife

The parable of the People of the Elephant


the-parable-of-the-people-of-the-elephant.jpg


What is your understanding of Sura Al-Feel, the story relating the People of the Elephant? How do you know about its historical details, if you reject traditional reports?

The Quran is not a textbook of history. So I do not think it is important, from a Quranic perspective at least, to know the historical details about the story relating the People of the Elephant.

The chapter on discussion, Sura Al-Feel (ch 105), is an allegory. Considering its metaphorical narration, our reading of this short chapter needs to be figurative rather than literal.

Let us go through the verses:

Have you noted what your Sustainer did to the Companions of the Elephant/misjudgement (fīl)? 105:1

Did He not make their plot go astray? 105:2

And He sent upon them birds in flocks (‘abābeel), 105:3

Striking them with stone-hard blows of scribed decree (sijjil), 105:4

Until He made them like chewed up hay. 105:5


Birds communicate with their inner avian Script and establish this communication (“aqeemoo alssalata”) by flying in flocks, while collectively following a leader’s guidance (24:41-56, 38:17-19). As noted in our study Birds and salat, this is the concept of salat (connection, communication), which is exemplified in the Quran by birds flying in flocks. As further observed in our study Meaning of BIRD in the Quran, in all instances where the term bird appears in the Quran, it ALWAYS refers to self and sensory-psychological processes. Thus, in the Quranic idiosyncrasy, birds often symbolize the individual minds in a society. These minds, when organized by right guidance (“birds in flocks”), can create through their conscious, collective effort a reformed society, which can then defend itself against evil forces including external aggressors.

Translated above as “scribed decree”, the term sijjil signifies “a writing” and, tropically, “something that has been decreed by God”: hence, the phrase hijarah min sijjil is a metaphor for “stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained in God’s decree”. See Asad’s Note on 105:4.

Here the Quran seems to simply relay, through metaphorical language, a vision where a victorious defensive counteraction takes place by the aggressed against the much stronger aggressors; and thereafter the evil army is humiliated further as they are totally destroyed against a wake of ‘birds in flocks’ (a reference to rightly guided, reformed minds, i.e., the Prophet’s followers) that hits them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained.

As obvious, there is nothing in these verses to support the traditional story, widespread within the Muslim communities. Though baseless and ridiculous, and though one can easily discover the absurdity of this story in its entirety1, traditional Muslims accept it as a historical event. They even try to provide various ‘proofs’ to defend it just because a story-teller in the past wrote it down in an attempt to explain the Surah.

It is better to remain aware of the limitations in our interpretation of a text rather than getting misguided by fabricated stories.

***********************************

Note 1

In the traditional story, Abraha was an Ethiopian Christian king of Yemen. He launched an expedition of sixty thousand men against the Kaaba at Mecca, led by a white elephant, probably along with several other elephants. Below are a few reasons this story looks fabricated and cannot be taken seriously (A good portion of this is paraphrased from Did Abraha ever attack Ka’ba?):

● The Quran doesn’t mention Abraha or his attack on the Kaaba. The Quran mentions the parable of the people of the Elephant/misjudgement only as a short reminder of the related moral lessons – and not as a historical account. There is no evidence that the Sura has anything to do with the traditional story or any of its components, including Abraha, Mecca or Kaaba.

● There is not a single narration in Bukhari, Muslim, or other ‘authentic’ hadith books regarding Abraha and his attack on the Kaaba. The traditional story about Abraha’s attempt to destroy the Kaaba and the related details were allegedly narrated in Ibn Ishaq’s Prophetic biography. This was then re-narrated variously in later story books. Interestingly, there is no mention of it in any of the ‘authentic’ hadith collections.

● Historian Procopius did not mention an army of elephants in his biography of Abraha. Procopius of Caesarea was a famous Byzantine historian of the time who resided in Palestine. He documented the events of the time in several volumes, including detailed information about Abraha, but he did not mention any army of elephants. He did not describe the elephants’ remarkable feat of traveling from Africa to Yemen, and then across deserts and mountains to Mecca, a distance of 800 kilometres. Moreover, according to Procopius and other historians, Abraha died 25 years before the birth of the Prophet, while traditional Muslims believe that Abraha attacked in the same year the Prophet was born.

● A Sabean Inscription, The Inscription of Abraha, rejects these stories about him. This archaeological inscription on a rock in southern Arabia shows that Abraha waged war on several tribes in Arabia, while collecting booty and slaves from every place, and safely returned to his country – without turning into a chewed-up heap of straw on the way. In this text, there is no mention of elephants, birds, Mecca, Quraysh, Kaaba or Abraha’s army’s defeat and collapse after being pelted by stones.

● It appears senseless that God would undertake such special initiative to rescue a small, fragile temple of pagan polytheists from the attack of an army of monotheists. Possibly as a believing Christian, Abraha was ready to go several hundred miles to destroy a small temple in Arabia, a stone structure filled with 360 idols, because he wanted more people to visit his church for guidance. Even then, however, it is silly that God would take it upon Himself to annihilate his entire army for this. Let us not forget that this is the same kaaba which God Himself destroyed many a time with floods and earthquakes which then Muslims had to duly rebuild.

● Transporting elephants over an 800-kilometer desert journey is next to impossible. There is no direct land route from Africa to Yemen that could have been used to bring elephants. Additionally, African elephants are known to be difficult to tame, unlike their Indian counterparts, which are more commonly trained for such purposes. Another major issue is the elephants’ diet; they require approximately 270 kilograms of food and 270 litres of water daily. The distance from Yemen to Mecca is about 800 kilometres, a stretch so challenging that even horses would struggle to make the journey, let alone elephants. The arid deserts and barren mountains along the route from Yemen to Mecca would not have provided sufficient water and forage for the elephants. Given these conditions, it is highly unlikely that an army of elephants could have traversed this long distance to reach Mecca.

● There are numerous contradictions in the narratives about Abraha and the attack on the Kaaba. For example, there are conflicting accounts regarding the number of elephants involved in the event. Some narrations claim there was an entire army of elephants, others mention 70 elephants, some say there were 9 elephants, while another version states there was only one elephant. The chief elephant is said to have been named “Mahmud,” which raises doubts since it is unlikely that an African elephant would have an Arabic name like “Mahmud.” Additionally, there are discrepancies about the timing of the event. One account claims it occurred forty days before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad, another says fifty days, while other claims range from fifteen, ten, twenty-three, thirty, and even up to forty or seventy years before his birth.




It could possibly be referring to Petra instead


petra_elephant.jpg



2000-3.jpg



DSC05069-1024x768.jpg


More details at following link and alternative meaning in the video


The People of the elephant


 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
When traditionalist interpreters of the Quran rely on historical narratives, they tend to equate them with Quranic verses.
Elephants cannot survive for long in the desert, especially not 1,500 years ago.
 

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)
When traditionalist interpreters of the Quran rely on historical narratives, they tend to equate them with Quranic verses.
Elephants cannot survive for long in the desert, especially not 1,500 years ago.


True. So much excavations and constructions have been happening around Makkah Mukarrama, why not a single bone or skeleton of any elephant was discovered ? On top of that Zoologists and people who watch Discovery Wild, Animal Planet and Nat Geo Wild can easily wonder what made those elephants travel through such landscape.
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Narrated Qais:

Jarir said "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet (ﷺ) of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka`ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.


sunnah.com

Sahih al-Bukhari 4357 - Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi) - كتاب المغازى - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic
sunnah.com
sunnah.com
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)

This is what majority of Muslims believe




But let's look into it based on archaeological research , plus genuine knowledge about geography and wildlife

The parable of the People of the Elephant


the-parable-of-the-people-of-the-elephant.jpg


What is your understanding of Sura Al-Feel, the story relating the People of the Elephant? How do you know about its historical details, if you reject traditional reports?

The Quran is not a textbook of history. So I do not think it is important, from a Quranic perspective at least, to know the historical details about the story relating the People of the Elephant.

The chapter on discussion, Sura Al-Feel (ch 105), is an allegory. Considering its metaphorical narration, our reading of this short chapter needs to be figurative rather than literal.

Let us go through the verses:

Have you noted what your Sustainer did to the Companions of the Elephant/misjudgement (fīl)? 105:1

Did He not make their plot go astray? 105:2

And He sent upon them birds in flocks (‘abābeel), 105:3

Striking them with stone-hard blows of scribed decree (sijjil), 105:4

Until He made them like chewed up hay. 105:5


Birds communicate with their inner avian Script and establish this communication (“aqeemoo alssalata”) by flying in flocks, while collectively following a leader’s guidance (24:41-56, 38:17-19). As noted in our study Birds and salat, this is the concept of salat (connection, communication), which is exemplified in the Quran by birds flying in flocks. As further observed in our study Meaning of BIRD in the Quran, in all instances where the term bird appears in the Quran, it ALWAYS refers to self and sensory-psychological processes. Thus, in the Quranic idiosyncrasy, birds often symbolize the individual minds in a society. These minds, when organized by right guidance (“birds in flocks”), can create through their conscious, collective effort a reformed society, which can then defend itself against evil forces including external aggressors.

Translated above as “scribed decree”, the term sijjil signifies “a writing” and, tropically, “something that has been decreed by God”: hence, the phrase hijarah min sijjil is a metaphor for “stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained in God’s decree”. See Asad’s Note on 105:4.

Here the Quran seems to simply relay, through metaphorical language, a vision where a victorious defensive counteraction takes place by the aggressed against the much stronger aggressors; and thereafter the evil army is humiliated further as they are totally destroyed against a wake of ‘birds in flocks’ (a reference to rightly guided, reformed minds, i.e., the Prophet’s followers) that hits them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained.

As obvious, there is nothing in these verses to support the traditional story, widespread within the Muslim communities. Though baseless and ridiculous, and though one can easily discover the absurdity of this story in its entirety1, traditional Muslims accept it as a historical event. They even try to provide various ‘proofs’ to defend it just because a story-teller in the past wrote it down in an attempt to explain the Surah.

It is better to remain aware of the limitations in our interpretation of a text rather than getting misguided by fabricated stories.

***********************************

Note 1

In the traditional story, Abraha was an Ethiopian Christian king of Yemen. He launched an expedition of sixty thousand men against the Kaaba at Mecca, led by a white elephant, probably along with several other elephants. Below are a few reasons this story looks fabricated and cannot be taken seriously (A good portion of this is paraphrased from Did Abraha ever attack Ka’ba?):

● The Quran doesn’t mention Abraha or his attack on the Kaaba. The Quran mentions the parable of the people of the Elephant/misjudgement only as a short reminder of the related moral lessons – and not as a historical account. There is no evidence that the Sura has anything to do with the traditional story or any of its components, including Abraha, Mecca or Kaaba.

● There is not a single narration in Bukhari, Muslim, or other ‘authentic’ hadith books regarding Abraha and his attack on the Kaaba. The traditional story about Abraha’s attempt to destroy the Kaaba and the related details were allegedly narrated in Ibn Ishaq’s Prophetic biography. This was then re-narrated variously in later story books. Interestingly, there is no mention of it in any of the ‘authentic’ hadith collections.

● Historian Procopius did not mention an army of elephants in his biography of Abraha. Procopius of Caesarea was a famous Byzantine historian of the time who resided in Palestine. He documented the events of the time in several volumes, including detailed information about Abraha, but he did not mention any army of elephants. He did not describe the elephants’ remarkable feat of traveling from Africa to Yemen, and then across deserts and mountains to Mecca, a distance of 800 kilometres. Moreover, according to Procopius and other historians, Abraha died 25 years before the birth of the Prophet, while traditional Muslims believe that Abraha attacked in the same year the Prophet was born.

● A Sabean Inscription, The Inscription of Abraha, rejects these stories about him. This archaeological inscription on a rock in southern Arabia shows that Abraha waged war on several tribes in Arabia, while collecting booty and slaves from every place, and safely returned to his country – without turning into a chewed-up heap of straw on the way. In this text, there is no mention of elephants, birds, Mecca, Quraysh, Kaaba or Abraha’s army’s defeat and collapse after being pelted by stones.

● It appears senseless that God would undertake such special initiative to rescue a small, fragile temple of pagan polytheists from the attack of an army of monotheists. Possibly as a believing Christian, Abraha was ready to go several hundred miles to destroy a small temple in Arabia, a stone structure filled with 360 idols, because he wanted more people to visit his church for guidance. Even then, however, it is silly that God would take it upon Himself to annihilate his entire army for this. Let us not forget that this is the same kaaba which God Himself destroyed many a time with floods and earthquakes which then Muslims had to duly rebuild.

● Transporting elephants over an 800-kilometer desert journey is next to impossible. There is no direct land route from Africa to Yemen that could have been used to bring elephants. Additionally, African elephants are known to be difficult to tame, unlike their Indian counterparts, which are more commonly trained for such purposes. Another major issue is the elephants’ diet; they require approximately 270 kilograms of food and 270 litres of water daily. The distance from Yemen to Mecca is about 800 kilometres, a stretch so challenging that even horses would struggle to make the journey, let alone elephants. The arid deserts and barren mountains along the route from Yemen to Mecca would not have provided sufficient water and forage for the elephants. Given these conditions, it is highly unlikely that an army of elephants could have traversed this long distance to reach Mecca.

● There are numerous contradictions in the narratives about Abraha and the attack on the Kaaba. For example, there are conflicting accounts regarding the number of elephants involved in the event. Some narrations claim there was an entire army of elephants, others mention 70 elephants, some say there were 9 elephants, while another version states there was only one elephant. The chief elephant is said to have been named “Mahmud,” which raises doubts since it is unlikely that an African elephant would have an Arabic name like “Mahmud.” Additionally, there are discrepancies about the timing of the event. One account claims it occurred forty days before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad, another says fifty days, while other claims range from fifteen, ten, twenty-three, thirty, and even up to forty or seventy years before his birth.




It could possibly be referring to Petra instead


petra_elephant.jpg



2000-3.jpg



DSC05069-1024x768.jpg


More details at following link and alternative meaning in the video


The People of the elephant


رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


This post claims Quran is false? Is that the conclusion??
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


This post claims Quran is false? Is that the conclusion??
You are the most pathetic and ignorant person who doesn't know the very basics of the Quran, yet claims to do Dawah.
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
You are the most pathetic and ignorant person who doesn't know the very basics of the Quran, yet claims to do Dawah.
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------

And you're the top most scholar of your man-made religion of denial.
Deny Kurt Cobain GIF by Nirvana
 

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


This post claims Quran is false? Is that the conclusion??


No, but people of Elephant meant something else other than what traditionalists say. Please read through the verses and their deep meaning after scrolling above
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم

This is what majority of Muslims believe




But let's look into it based on archaeological research , plus genuine knowledge about geography and wildlife

The parable of the People of the Elephant


the-parable-of-the-people-of-the-elephant.jpg


What is your understanding of Sura Al-Feel, the story relating the People of the Elephant? How do you know about its historical details, if you reject traditional reports?

The Quran is not a textbook of history. So I do not think it is important, from a Quranic perspective at least, to know the historical details about the story relating the People of the Elephant.

The chapter on discussion, Sura Al-Feel (ch 105), is an allegory. Considering its metaphorical narration, our reading of this short chapter needs to be figurative rather than literal.

Let us go through the verses:

Have you noted what your Sustainer did to the Companions of the Elephant/misjudgement (fīl)? 105:1

Did He not make their plot go astray? 105:2

And He sent upon them birds in flocks (‘abābeel), 105:3

Striking them with stone-hard blows of scribed decree (sijjil), 105:4

Until He made them like chewed up hay. 105:5


Birds communicate with their inner avian Script and establish this communication (“aqeemoo alssalata”) by flying in flocks, while collectively following a leader’s guidance (24:41-56, 38:17-19). As noted in our study Birds and salat, this is the concept of salat (connection, communication), which is exemplified in the Quran by birds flying in flocks. As further observed in our study Meaning of BIRD in the Quran, in all instances where the term bird appears in the Quran, it ALWAYS refers to self and sensory-psychological processes. Thus, in the Quranic idiosyncrasy, birds often symbolize the individual minds in a society. These minds, when organized by right guidance (“birds in flocks”), can create through their conscious, collective effort a reformed society, which can then defend itself against evil forces including external aggressors.

Translated above as “scribed decree”, the term sijjil signifies “a writing” and, tropically, “something that has been decreed by God”: hence, the phrase hijarah min sijjil is a metaphor for “stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained in God’s decree”. See Asad’s Note on 105:4.

Here the Quran seems to simply relay, through metaphorical language, a vision where a victorious defensive counteraction takes place by the aggressed against the much stronger aggressors; and thereafter the evil army is humiliated further as they are totally destroyed against a wake of ‘birds in flocks’ (a reference to rightly guided, reformed minds, i.e., the Prophet’s followers) that hits them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained.

As obvious, there is nothing in these verses to support the traditional story, widespread within the Muslim communities. Though baseless and ridiculous, and though one can easily discover the absurdity of this story in its entirety1, traditional Muslims accept it as a historical event. They even try to provide various ‘proofs’ to defend it just because a story-teller in the past wrote it down in an attempt to explain the Surah.

It is better to remain aware of the limitations in our interpretation of a text rather than getting misguided by fabricated stories.

***********************************

Note 1

In the traditional story, Abraha was an Ethiopian Christian king of Yemen. He launched an expedition of sixty thousand men against the Kaaba at Mecca, led by a white elephant, probably along with several other elephants. Below are a few reasons this story looks fabricated and cannot be taken seriously (A good portion of this is paraphrased from Did Abraha ever attack Ka’ba?):

● The Quran doesn’t mention Abraha or his attack on the Kaaba. The Quran mentions the parable of the people of the Elephant/misjudgement only as a short reminder of the related moral lessons – and not as a historical account. There is no evidence that the Sura has anything to do with the traditional story or any of its components, including Abraha, Mecca or Kaaba.

● There is not a single narration in Bukhari, Muslim, or other ‘authentic’ hadith books regarding Abraha and his attack on the Kaaba. The traditional story about Abraha’s attempt to destroy the Kaaba and the related details were allegedly narrated in Ibn Ishaq’s Prophetic biography. This was then re-narrated variously in later story books. Interestingly, there is no mention of it in any of the ‘authentic’ hadith collections.

● Historian Procopius did not mention an army of elephants in his biography of Abraha. Procopius of Caesarea was a famous Byzantine historian of the time who resided in Palestine. He documented the events of the time in several volumes, including detailed information about Abraha, but he did not mention any army of elephants. He did not describe the elephants’ remarkable feat of traveling from Africa to Yemen, and then across deserts and mountains to Mecca, a distance of 800 kilometres. Moreover, according to Procopius and other historians, Abraha died 25 years before the birth of the Prophet, while traditional Muslims believe that Abraha attacked in the same year the Prophet was born.

● A Sabean Inscription, The Inscription of Abraha, rejects these stories about him. This archaeological inscription on a rock in southern Arabia shows that Abraha waged war on several tribes in Arabia, while collecting booty and slaves from every place, and safely returned to his country – without turning into a chewed-up heap of straw on the way. In this text, there is no mention of elephants, birds, Mecca, Quraysh, Kaaba or Abraha’s army’s defeat and collapse after being pelted by stones.

● It appears senseless that God would undertake such special initiative to rescue a small, fragile temple of pagan polytheists from the attack of an army of monotheists. Possibly as a believing Christian, Abraha was ready to go several hundred miles to destroy a small temple in Arabia, a stone structure filled with 360 idols, because he wanted more people to visit his church for guidance. Even then, however, it is silly that God would take it upon Himself to annihilate his entire army for this. Let us not forget that this is the same kaaba which God Himself destroyed many a time with floods and earthquakes which then Muslims had to duly rebuild.

● Transporting elephants over an 800-kilometer desert journey is next to impossible. There is no direct land route from Africa to Yemen that could have been used to bring elephants. Additionally, African elephants are known to be difficult to tame, unlike their Indian counterparts, which are more commonly trained for such purposes. Another major issue is the elephants’ diet; they require approximately 270 kilograms of food and 270 litres of water daily. The distance from Yemen to Mecca is about 800 kilometres, a stretch so challenging that even horses would struggle to make the journey, let alone elephants. The arid deserts and barren mountains along the route from Yemen to Mecca would not have provided sufficient water and forage for the elephants. Given these conditions, it is highly unlikely that an army of elephants could have traversed this long distance to reach Mecca.

● There are numerous contradictions in the narratives about Abraha and the attack on the Kaaba. For example, there are conflicting accounts regarding the number of elephants involved in the event. Some narrations claim there was an entire army of elephants, others mention 70 elephants, some say there were 9 elephants, while another version states there was only one elephant. The chief elephant is said to have been named “Mahmud,” which raises doubts since it is unlikely that an African elephant would have an Arabic name like “Mahmud.” Additionally, there are discrepancies about the timing of the event. One account claims it occurred forty days before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad, another says fifty days, while other claims range from fifteen, ten, twenty-three, thirty, and even up to forty or seventy years before his birth.




It could possibly be referring to Petra instead


petra_elephant.jpg



2000-3.jpg



DSC05069-1024x768.jpg


More details at following link and alternative meaning in the video


The People of the elephant


I personally don't given any credence to the Petra being Mecca theory because lack of any real evidence to suggest that. And Petra was attacked many times with armies that had elephants in it but eventually fell to the Romans and Romans were good at record keeping and even their accounts of empty of anything that supports that theory.

The Quran says as-haab al feel, which translates to not army of elephants but people or companions of the elephants. Ashaab the word from which Sahaba is derived in islamic terms referring to the companions of the Prophet. Doesn't mean there were any elephants in the Army or could have been just one elephant ridden by the leader.

There is historical evidence of a King called Abraha. There are inscriptions mentioning him and his escapades in Yemen and Hejaz region.

Full name on inscriptions Abraha ibn aṣ-Ṣabbāḥ, the king of Saba.

There is more historical and physical evidence of Abraha and his conquering in the Arabian peninsula than there is of Petra being Mecca.

Also the Quran never mentions where Allah dealt with these Ashaab al feel, so its silly to presume it was near mecca or even in the Arabian peninsula. Could have been dealt with as they were leaving home.

Also I totally disagree with the wild stretch of imagination in the translations of bird. I hate to say it but reminds me of what Ghulam Ahmad Pervez was trying to translate the word birds to. Some kind into a desert dwelling nomadic tribe??? Just how, and no reason given why he did that. So just because right now you cannot understand something in the Quran doesn't mean you bend and twist it to fit it into your understanding. Its better you do better research and more learning into the subject.

The surah in Question is short and with out any outside "explanation" lets look at it

Have you not considered, how your Lord dealt with the companions of the elephant?

Did He not make their plan into misguidance?

And He sent against them birds in flocks

Striking them with stones of hard clay

And He made them like eaten straw.


Now how does any of this point towards, Abraha and an army of elephants, or Mecca being petra. The Quranic verse doesn't support either version. The verse shows us the power of Allah and how he can use his smallest creatures to wreak havoc if he chooses to.

You don't need to know the story of Abraha or Mecca being Petra to receive the guidance from this Surah
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
No, but people of Elephant meant something else other than what traditionalists say.
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


So, how's your interpretation different from the two hackel and jackles who claim everything in Quran is not what people understand traditionally.

Meaning:
Allah doesn't mean Allah, Rahman is not the name of Allah.
Salah doesn't mean worship
Sawm is not fasting
Hajj is not how people have traditionally been doing
Marriage in Quran doesn't mean Nikah
No salah means no last rights for the dead
and on and on....


Please read through the verses and their deep meaning after scrolling above
And come to the conclusion that elephants even though its the actual word that means a big animal, its not an animal but something else?
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
It's a different interpretation of Surah Al-Fil. Watch it from 48 minutes onwards.
You can watch the complete translation of the Surah starting from 2 hours and 6 minutes.
Citizen X A.G.Uddin

Well to be honest this is even worse than G.A.P translation of the Quran. In simple words, baal ki khaal nikal rahay hai. ( I wondered how the other member of the podcast that Baba Dr Muhammad Iqbal felt, since he is a great follower of G.A.P ) His trying to prove that فِيل means someone with a weak mind etc etc is very disingenuous.

فِيل is a noun and doesn't mean anything but elephant in classical or modern day arabic.

To clarify this matter I took the help of chat GPT including in the prompt what Lanes Lexicon says


Lane’s Lexicon does indeed list فَيَّلَ (fayyala) as a verb meaning "to declare a judgment or opinion weak, bad, or erroneous." This is distinct from the noun فِيل (elephant), but the forms look similar, which can lead to confusion.
Let’s break it down carefully:

🔤 Two Different Words:​

1. فِيل (fīl)Elephant

  • Noun
  • Loanword (non-Arabic origin)
  • Appears in the Qur'an: ٱلْفِيل = "the elephant"
  • No Arabic root derivation (جذر) in the traditional triliteral system

2. فَيَّلَ (fayyala)To declare a judgment weak

  • Triliteral root: ف – ي – ل (F–Y–L)
  • Verb form: II (فَعَّلَ)
  • Derived noun: تَفْيِيل (tafyīl) = the act of declaring something weak
  • Meaning in Lane’s Lexicon:
    “He declared or esteemed his opinion/judgment to be weak, bad, or erroneous.”

⚠️ Are they related?​

Despite the visual similarity, they are:
  • Homographs: spelled similarly in Arabic script (فيل), but
  • Not etymologically related:
    • فِيل = borrowed noun (elephant)
    • فَيَّلَ = derived Arabic verb from root ف–ي–ل
So yes, فَيَّلَ رَأْيَهُ means “he declared his opinion weak,” and this does exist in Arabic lexicons like Lane's. But it has nothing to do with the animal “elephant” in meaning or origin.

🧠 Conclusion:​

Arabic FormTransliterationMeaningRootNotes
فِيلfīlElephant(loanword)Used in Qur'an; no native root
فَيَّلَfayyalaTo deem a judgment weakف – ي – لRare classical verb; listed in Lane's

Do you know the book The Message Of The Quran by Muhammad Asad?

This is more of that kind of mumbo jumbo. Like I said baal ki kaal utharna.

The Quran is says it is a Kitab Al Mobeen and what these people are doing treating it exactly the opposite, as some book filled with metaphorical annotations and secret meanings which an average person has to spend a life time deciphering.
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Well to be honest this is even worse than G.A.P translation of the Quran. In simple words, baal ki khaal nikal rahay hai. ( I wondered how the other member of the podcast that Baba Dr Muhammad Iqbal felt, since he is a great follower of G.A.P ) His trying to prove that فِيل means someone with a weak mind etc etc is very disingenuous.

فِيل is a noun and doesn't mean anything but elephant in classical or modern day arabic.

To clarify this matter I took the help of chat GPT including in the prompt what Lanes Lexicon says


Lane’s Lexicon does indeed list فَيَّلَ (fayyala) as a verb meaning "to declare a judgment or opinion weak, bad, or erroneous." This is distinct from the noun فِيل (elephant), but the forms look similar, which can lead to confusion.
Let’s break it down carefully:

🔤 Two Different Words:​

1. فِيل (fīl)Elephant

  • Noun
  • Loanword (non-Arabic origin)
  • Appears in the Qur'an: ٱلْفِيل = "the elephant"
  • No Arabic root derivation (جذر) in the traditional triliteral system

2. فَيَّلَ (fayyala)To declare a judgment weak

  • Triliteral root: ف – ي – ل (F–Y–L)
  • Verb form: II (فَعَّلَ)
  • Derived noun: تَفْيِيل (tafyīl) = the act of declaring something weak
  • Meaning in Lane’s Lexicon:

⚠️ Are they related?​

Despite the visual similarity, they are:
  • Homographs: spelled similarly in Arabic script (فيل), but
  • Not etymologically related:
    • فِيل = borrowed noun (elephant)
    • فَيَّلَ = derived Arabic verb from root ف–ي–ل
So yes, فَيَّلَ رَأْيَهُ means “he declared his opinion weak,” and this does exist in Arabic lexicons like Lane's. But it has nothing to do with the animal “elephant” in meaning or origin.

🧠 Conclusion:​

Arabic FormTransliterationMeaningRootNotes
فِيلfīlElephant(loanword)Used in Qur'an; no native root
فَيَّلَfayyalaTo deem a judgment weakف – ي – لRare classical verb; listed in Lane's

Do you know the book The Message Of The Quran by Muhammad Asad?

This is more of that kind of mumbo jumbo. Like I said baal ki kaal utharna.

The Quran is says it is a Kitab Al Mobeen and what these people are doing treating it exactly the opposite, as some book filled with metaphorical annotations and secret meanings which an average person has to spend a life time deciphering.
That is a different perspective in the video of Surah Al Fil.
Anyway, if Fil means elephants, then I would disagree as elephants can not survive in the desert, especially some 1500 years ago.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
That is a different perspective in the video of Surah Al Fil.
Anyway, if Fil means elephants, then I would disagree as elephants can not survive in the desert, especially some 1500 years ago.
Where does it say they were in the desert? It is not even implied they were in the desert.

Edit there are very arid deserts where elephants live in. Namib Desert, Saharan Elephants, Ethopia and Mali desert elephants

images



 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
Well to be honest this is even worse than G.A.P translation of the Quran. In simple words, baal ki khaal nikal rahay hai. ( I wondered how the other member of the podcast that Baba Dr Muhammad Iqbal felt, since he is a great follower of G.A.P ) His trying to prove that فِيل means someone with a weak mind etc etc is very disingenuous.

فِيل is a noun and doesn't mean anything but elephant in classical or modern day arabic.

To clarify this matter I took the help of chat GPT including in the prompt what Lanes Lexicon says


Lane’s Lexicon does indeed list فَيَّلَ (fayyala) as a verb meaning "to declare a judgment or opinion weak, bad, or erroneous." This is distinct from the noun فِيل (elephant), but the forms look similar, which can lead to confusion.
Let’s break it down carefully:

🔤 Two Different Words:​

1. فِيل (fīl)Elephant

  • Noun
  • Loanword (non-Arabic origin)
  • Appears in the Qur'an: ٱلْفِيل = "the elephant"
  • No Arabic root derivation (جذر) in the traditional triliteral system

2. فَيَّلَ (fayyala)To declare a judgment weak

  • Triliteral root: ف – ي – ل (F–Y–L)
  • Verb form: II (فَعَّلَ)
  • Derived noun: تَفْيِيل (tafyīl) = the act of declaring something weak
  • Meaning in Lane’s Lexicon:

⚠️ Are they related?​

Despite the visual similarity, they are:
  • Homographs: spelled similarly in Arabic script (فيل), but
  • Not etymologically related:
    • فِيل = borrowed noun (elephant)
    • فَيَّلَ = derived Arabic verb from root ف–ي–ل
So yes, فَيَّلَ رَأْيَهُ means “he declared his opinion weak,” and this does exist in Arabic lexicons like Lane's. But it has nothing to do with the animal “elephant” in meaning or origin.

🧠 Conclusion:​

Arabic FormTransliterationMeaningRootNotes
فِيلfīlElephant(loanword)Used in Qur'an; no native root
فَيَّلَfayyalaTo deem a judgment weakف – ي – لRare classical verb; listed in Lane's

Do you know the book The Message Of The Quran by Muhammad Asad?

This is more of that kind of mumbo jumbo. Like I said baal ki kaal utharna.

The Quran is says it is a Kitab Al Mobeen and what these people are doing treating it exactly the opposite, as some book filled with metaphorical annotations and secret meanings which an average person has to spend a life time deciphering.
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


Brilliant!!!! The hackel and jackels have made the Surah Feel from story of elephants to story of the weak. BRAVO....

This is all they do. They have an alternate logic less, sense less meaning that no one else knows not even native Arabs.
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Where does it say they were in the desert? It is not even implied they were in the desert.

Edit there are very arid deserts where elephants live in. Namib Desert, Saharan Elephants, Ethopia and Mali desert elephants

images



Elephants can not survive in the desert without vegetation and water.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


Brilliant!!!! The hackel and jackels have made the Surah Feel from story of elephants to story of the weak. BRAVO....

This is all they do. They have an alternate logic less, sense less meaning that no one else knows not even native Arabs.
You are so dumb its hilarious and your lack of reading and comprehension skills even funnier. If you were able to read and comprehend which you can't, you would see I am totally disagreeing with what OP and Wake Up are saying. And even using you favourite person on this planet Pervez as a sample of how wrong it is that its even worse than what Pervez was saying.

Thing is like you we just don't follow blindly like blind sheep and we have disagreements on many subjects but yet are able to have discussions in a civil manner like adults without resorting to insults, labels, false allegations, lies or any kind of dance like you. We may come to an agreement or we might not. But at least we exchanged ideas and knowledge which helps us further our understanding. This is how discussions and debates work.

But you dawah gang bros know nothing about that, you just know how to shout, not let others speak, force your POV down other peoples throats, not listening to anything anyone else has to say, insult, ridicule, label and lie.
 

Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Elephants can not survive in the desert without vegetation and water.
I just provided you with links showing elephants do survive in the desert. But that was just an supplementary answer, my main answer was that no where in that surah does it say the elephants were in the desert. Thats just an assumption made on hadith and tafsir.

Anyways if you want to learn more you can watch this

 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
I just provided you with links showing elephants do survive in the desert. But that was just an supplementary answer, my main answer was that no where in that surah does it say the elephants were in the desert. Thats just an assumption made on hadith and tafsir.

Anyways if you want to learn more you can watch this

I know that it's not in the surah, but the reference was given to historical Abraha, and that tells us elephants were in the desert. That's why I don't buy the traditionalists' interpretations of Surah Al Fil.
 

observer-x

MPA (400+ posts)
You are so dumb its hilarious and your lack of reading and comprehension skills even funnier. If you were able to read and comprehend which you can't, you would see I am totally disagreeing with what OP and Wake Up are saying. And even using you favourite person on this planet Pervez as a sample of how wrong it is that its even worse than what Pervez was saying.

Thing is like you we just don't follow blindly like blind sheep and we have disagreements on many subjects but yet are able to have discussions in a civil manner like adults without resorting to insults, labels, false allegations, lies or any kind of dance like you. We may come to an agreement or we might not. But at least we exchanged ideas and knowledge which helps us further our understanding. This is how discussions and debates work.

But you dawah gang bros know nothing about that, you just know how to shout, not let others speak, force your POV down other peoples throats, not listening to anything anyone else has to say, insult, ridicule, label and lie.
رَبِّ اشْرَحْ لِي صَدْرِي وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي
My Lord, expand for me my chest [with assurance] and ease for me my task and untie the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.

اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
--------------------------------------


Constant meaningless ranting... blah blah blah
 

Back
Top