جنکو ریپ اور بے پردگی کا تعلّق سمجھ نہیں آتا

[M Ali Khan]

But as far as women will continue wearing revealing clothes and keep asking men to lower their gaze, the results will remain the same.

remember that after #MeToo became a thing, many Pakistani women on social media shared their horror stories of constant staring, cat-calling, men deliberately 'bumping' into them in bazaars, and open harrassment even when those women were with families!

they weren't wearing bikinis or short shorts or sleeveless attire. they were your typical Pakistani dresses, some even hijab-wearing facing this constant discomfort in public.

while they received a LOT of support and sympathy in the replies/comments, plenty of londay were saying "that didn't happen! you are lying! landay ke liberalzz! aurat ko sirf ghar mein rehna chahiye!"

again, such men - from young boys to old uncles - hold the power in society and instead of feeling ashamed of their own double standards and REFUSING to control their animalistic urges, they always always ALWAYS blame women!

just because we men do not face this discomfort in public, we think "oh its all jhoot!" and the same mentality is found among majority religious groups who accuse minorities of "faking their oppression"

please refer to my post.

women wearing hijab have also been harrassed/raped/attacked by men in our society!

so this rEvEaLiNg ClOtHiNg is bakwas to blame everything on women!

 

[M Ali Khan]

Sex is one of the basic needs of most animals, including humans - like food and water. It's hard to control a hungry animal for too long if it sees a delicious food in fonrt of it. They are well fed in the West, but in our country, they are hungry until they get married in their late 20s to 30s.

so much for being 'ashfarul makhlooqat' then eh?

those who think like animals will act like animals

 

[Sohail Shuja]

according to most people, esp. mazhabi types, purdah = chadar + char-diwari

when that mentality changes, then we can talk!

I will humbly disagree with your proposition here. Purdah, as described in Islam is not only chadar and char diwari. It circumscribes your attitude, like women going out alone at places where they can be vulnerable to harassment. Frequent intermixing with the opposite gender. Keeping limits in discussions and not showing their vanity to everyone in open etc. This all comes from religion aka mazhab

 

[M Ali Khan]

I will humbly disagree with your proposition here. Purdah, as described in Islam is not only chadar and char diwari. It circumscribes your attitude, like women going out alone at places where they can be vulnerable to harassment. Frequent intermixing with the opposite gender. Keeping limits in discussions and not showing their vanity to everyone in open etc. This all comes from religion aka mazhab

i am NOT debating what purdah is supposed to be in light of Quran/Hadith

i am talking about what most people (mostly men) in our society INSIST on what purdah is!

get the ones who shout about purdah the most to calm the f*** down and ponder over their own actions BEFORE they point fingers at women

simple

 

[Sohail Shuja]

please refer to my post.

women wearing hijab have also been harrassed/raped/attacked by men in our society!

so this rEvEaLiNg ClOtHiNg is bakwas to blame everything on women!

I think you have not referred to my post regarding the statistics and research on the topic by the West.

What you are representing is your personal opinion. What I have referred to are established facts.

Over 70%
of women in the UK say they have experienced sexual harassment in public

Only 3%
of women aged 18-24 told us they had not experienced any of the behaviours we asked about

This is a global issue – almost 9 in 10
women in some cities around the world feel unsafe in public spaces

Every 10 Minutes
somewhere in the world an adolescent girl dies as a result of violence.

And the systems in place to reduce violence and harassment ARE NOT WORKING.

Only 4% of women told us they reported the incidents of harassment to an official organisation – with 45% of women saying they didn’t believe reporting would help change anything.

https://www.unwomenuk.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/APPG-UN-Women-Sexual-Harassment-Report_Updated.pdf

Dress and sex: a review of empirical research involving human participants and published in refereed journals - Fashion and Textiles

Our research purpose was to assess research addressing relationships between dress and sex. Our review was focused on a 25 years span (i.e., 1990–2015) and on empirical research utilizing human participants published in refereed journals. Three main areas of research emerged: (1) dress used as...

fashionandtextiles.springeropen.com

From Attire to Assault: Clothing, Objectification, and De-humanization – A Possible Prelude to Sexual Violence? - PMC

In the context of objectification and violence, little attention has been paid to the perception neuroscience of how the human brain perceives bodies and objectifies them. Various studies point to how external cues such as appearance and attire ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Sohail Shuja]

i am NOT debating what purdah is supposed to be in light of Quran/Hadith

i am talking about what most people (mostly men) in our society INSIST on what purdah is!

get the ones who shout about purdah the most to calm the f*** down and ponder over their own actions BEFORE they point fingers at women

simple

What is your point here? only men should lower their gaze and women should be allowed to do whatever they want?

Only telling the guys is not the solution, whereas, they have a different brain, different neurology and different stimulating triggers, which the women will be completely unable to understand, because they have a different brain.

 

[M Ali Khan]

I think you have not referred to my post regarding the statistics and research on the topic by the West.

What you are representing is your personal opinion. What I have referred to are established facts.

Over 70%
of women in the UK say they have experienced sexual harassment in public

Only 3%
of women aged 18-24 told us they had not experienced any of the behaviours we asked about

This is a global issue – almost 9 in 10
women in some cities around the world feel unsafe in public spaces

Every 10 Minutes
somewhere in the world an adolescent girl dies as a result of violence.

And the systems in place to reduce violence and harassment ARE NOT WORKING.

Only 4% of women told us they reported the incidents of harassment to an official organisation – with 45% of women saying they didn’t believe reporting would help change anything.

https://www.unwomenuk.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/APPG-UN-Women-Sexual-Harassment-Report_Updated.pdf

Dress and sex: a review of empirical research involving human participants and published in refereed journals - Fashion and Textiles

Our research purpose was to assess research addressing relationships between dress and sex. Our review was focused on a 25 years span (i.e., 1990–2015) and on empirical research utilizing human participants published in refereed journals. Three main areas of research emerged: (1) dress used as...

fashionandtextiles.springeropen.com

From Attire to Assault: Clothing, Objectification, and De-humanization – A Possible Prelude to Sexual Violence? - PMC

In the context of objectification and violence, little attention has been paid to the perception neuroscience of how the human brain perceives bodies and objectifies them. Various studies point to how external cues such as appearance and attire ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

because even the West is facing a reckoning with sexual harrassment, violence against women, rape etc.

At least over there there is more and more transparency and more people have been willing to talk about it and come forward with the passage of time, allowing better data collection and research. can we say the same for a country like Pakistan?

in our part of the world, many simply do NOT want to even talk or consider it as an issue. women are bullied to stay quiet because of "izzat, logg kya kahenge, tumne hii kuch kiya hoga etc."

and what is the standard response for many here? CHADAR AUR CHAAR DIWARI! as in physical/material things that only women are expected to follow.

instead of changing misogynistic attitudes that simple treat women as "peyr ki jooti" that still will take a LOT of effort to eliminate.

What is your point here? only men should lower their gaze and women should be allowed to do whatever they want?

Only telling the guys is not the solution, whereas, they have a different brain, different neurology and different stimulating triggers, which the women will be completely unable to understand, because they have a different brain.

as I mentioned in a previous post, men in our part of the world stare like animals even at those women who keep purdah. niqabis/hijabis etc also face similar discomfort & physical harrassment if they are out in public from men.

guess what, women have also been inappropriately touched/stared/harrassed when wearing Ihram during Hajj/Ummrah too!

women are NOT the problem here. men have the power and men have the responsibility to better themselves to treat women as fellow human beings first.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

because even the West is facing a reckoning with sexual harrassment, violence against women, rape etc.

At least over there there is more and more transparency and more people have been willing to talk about it and come forward with the passage of time, allowing better data collection and research. can we say the same for a country like Pakistan?

in our part of the world, many simply do NOT want to even talk or consider it as an issue. women are bullied to stay quiet because of "izzat, logg kya kahenge, tumne hii kuch kiya hoga etc."

and what is the standard response for many here? CHADAR AUR CHAAR DIWARI! as in physical/material things that only women are expected to follow.

instead of changing misogynistic attitudes that simple treat women as "peyr ki jooti" that still will take a LOT of effort to eliminate.


as I mentioned in a previous post, men in our part of the world stare like animals even at those women who keep purdah. niqabis/hijabis etc also face similar discomfort & physical harrassment if they are out in public from men.

guess what, women have also been inappropriately touched/stared/harrassed when wearing Ihram during Hajj/Ummrah too!

women are NOT the problem here. men have the power and men have the responsibility to better themselves to treat women as fellow human beings first.

Sir, I actually do not want to use the word "ramble" for your great piece of effort, but what you have basically ignored out of the facts is that only 4% of the harassed women in UK report it, the rest 96% don't and 45% believe nothing is going to change by reporting. This is what the UN report says.

 

[M Ali Khan]

Sir, I actually do not want to use the word "ramble" for your great piece of effort, but what you have basically ignored out of the facts is that only 4% of the harassed women in UK report it, the rest 96% don't and 45% believe nothing is going to change by reporting. This is what the UN report says.

and does that affect anything which happens in the Pakistan context?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

and does that affect anything which happens in the Pakistan context?

If you keep encouraging women to abandon purdah as it being labelled as a form of oppression against the gender, or keep telling people to dress like westerners, it will only make things worse here, I can bet on it. This will be pseudo liberation of the libtards.

 

[M Ali Khan]

If you keep encouraging women to abandon purdah as it being labelled as a form of oppression against the gender, or keep telling people to dress like westerners, it will only make things worse here, I can bet on it. This will be pseudo liberation of the libtards.

Once again I respectfully reiterate women who do hijab in Pakistan face similar levels of harrassment and dangers as women who do not in Pakistan

hence the physical act of keeping purdah is NO GUARANTEE of reducing it

there is more to that than horny hypocritical men simply DEMANDING women observe purdah or blame women for crimes faced by them

does that make it clear for you??

 

[Wake up Pak]

Well, Islam always preaches for moderation in life.
May it be Women's dress or any other day-to-day business.

 

[Wake up Pak]

Since the debate is about women's dress code, the Quran has clear instructions about it.

Here is a little video that explains it in detail.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Once again I respectfully reiterate women who do hijab in Pakistan face similar levels of harrassment and dangers as women who do not in Pakistan

Well, we cannot believe you in the absence of any statistics. Rather, the researches I have referred earlier do establish a link between women's clothing and vulnerability to harassment, in the western countries.

We can only interpret your argument as a mere personal opinion, not devoid of a bias.

hence the physical act of keeping purdah is NO GUARANTEE of reducing it

Therefore women should not observe purdah. Is that the crux of it?

there is more to that than horny hypocritical men simply DEMANDING women observe purdah or blame women for crimes faced by them

So, this implies that the men encouraging women not to observe purdah are the real saints?

does that make it clear for you??

On the topic, NO. But on the other hand, YES

 

[M Ali Khan]

Well, we cannot believe you in the absence of any statistics. Rather, the researches I have referred earlier do establish a link between women's clothing and vulnerability to harassment, in the western countries. We can only interpret your argument as a mere personal opinion, not devoid of a bias.

My apologies for not citing research. But as I said, at least the West (for all its many faults and shortcomings) is getting more transparent about such issues, esp with women getting a voice in numerous fields

Exhibit Of Sex Assault Victims’ Clothing Shows No One Is Asking For It

Some people still think that a woman's clothing encourages or incites harassment and assault.

www.huffingtonpost.ca

that said, I again believe harassing women on their clothes is disgusting, unfair, biased. nor does the "she was asking for it" excuse either. but that's my opinion and I have been clear why I believe in it so you can agree to disagree

Women in many countries face harassment for clothing deemed too religious – or too secular

Women in 56 countries experienced social hostilities due to clothing that was deemed to violate religious or secular dress norms.

www.pewresearch.org

Therefore women should not observe purdah. Is that the crux of it?

Men should lower their gaze first (i.e. aankhon ka pardah) rather than harassing/attacking women or demanding women observe purdah without observing any purdah on their own eyes and behavior.

So, this implies that the men encouraging women not to observe purdah are the real saints?

The real saints are those who let women be, keep their "animalistic urges" under control, and avoid calling themselves 'victims of temptations' to justify their actions

On the topic, NO. But on the other hand, YES

k.

 

[Aristo]

as long as mard hazraat insist that "PURDAH IS EVERYTHING" and first REFUSE to lower their own gaze or control their own mentalities, jo marzi kar lo, yeh kabhi khatam nahi hoga!

expecting women to make changes first is just stupid and unjust. men hold the power, and they refuse to make changes in their behavior first, and expect women to do EVERYTHING for them.

roti banao, bachay paida karo, susraal ke nakhrey jheelo

FUN FACT: in Shariah, Muslim wives have ZERO OBLIGATION to cater to needs etc of susraal. the husband is supposed to cater to them!

first we have to punch the rapist according to islam humain rape k mujrim ko sahat say sahat saza deni ho ge ta k koi dosra yeh juram karnay ke jurat na kar sakay par is k sath sath humain aurton k be rah ravi ko b control karna ho ga dono kam karain gay to yeh buraie is society main hatam ho ge otherwise na yeh debate hatam ho ge na yeh juram

 

[arifkarim]

عمران نے اسلام پہ جتنی کتابیں پڑھیں ہیں اتنی تیرے س

کتابیں تو اقرار الحسن نے بھی چوتھی جماعت تک بہت ساری پڑھ لی تھیں

 

[Nice2MU]

کتابیں تو اقرار الحسن نے بھی چوتھی جماعت تک بہت ساری پڑھ لی تھیں

جاؤ فارغ انسان۔۔ کسی چیز کا علم نہ ہو دوسروں کا فضول میں وقت ضائع نہ کرو۔

 

[M Ali Khan]

کتابیں تو اقرار الحسن نے بھی چوتھی جماعت تک بہت ساری پڑھ لی تھیں

MeIn nE MaGhRiB kO qArEeB sE dEkHa HaI!

 

[Sohail Shuja]

My apologies for not citing research. But as I said, at least the West (for all its many faults and shortcomings) is getting more transparent about such issues, esp with women getting a voice in numerous fields

Exhibit Of Sex Assault Victims’ Clothing Shows No One Is Asking For It

Some people still think that a woman's clothing encourages or incites harassment and assault.

www.huffingtonpost.ca

Neither did you cite any research nor did you go through a single one of those I referred earlier. A reasonable and syllogistic approach is to substantiate your claim with evidence and also to evaluate the counter claim as well.

By the way, I have gone through this article you referred. It is only a place where they have been able to get the outfits of only 18 of the rape victims at the time they got raped.

Though, you have clearly ignored the opening lines of my thread here:

​

جی بالکل ٹھیک بات ہے، ریپ کا تعلّق عورتوں کے کپڑوں سے زیادہ مردوں کی ذہنیت سے ہے۔ لیکن اس بات کو سمجھنا ایک عورت کے لیئے شائد مشکل ہو کہ مردوں کا ذہن اور خاص کر کمزور مردوں کا ذہن کیسے کام کرتا ہے؟

مرد کے لیئے اللہ نے عورت کے جسم میں شہوت رکھی ہے۔ لیکن ضروری نہیں کہ مرد اسی عورت پر ہاتھ بھی رکھے جس کے جسم کو دیکھ کر اس کی حالت خراب ہوتی ہے۔​

Therefore, I am afraid that you are grossly off the mark from the main theme of the discussion over here. You have constantly failed to appraise the main argument of the thread and that is why I have to dismiss your (I hate to use the word) "ramble" as irrelevant and totally drenched in an overwhelming ardor of feminism. However, we are trying to strike a balance between the two extremes of Chauvinism and Feminism.

that said, I again believe harassing women on their clothes is disgusting, unfair, biased. nor does the "she was asking for it" excuse either. but that's my opinion and I have been clear why I believe in it so you can agree to disagree

Women in many countries face harassment for clothing deemed too religious – or too secular

Women in 56 countries experienced social hostilities due to clothing that was deemed to violate religious or secular dress norms.

www.pewresearch.org

I must say that you have been blindly vocal about your ideals, rather than being clear about your proposition.

The very survey you posted here also exhibits a trend that when Governments controlled clothing, the rate of harassment crimes came down.

You can clearly see the correlation between the data of 2017 and 2018.

Many people who see high socialites and their Gora Masters campaigning for something and they instantly jump on the bandwagon and start trumpeting their tunes, without giving a proper piece of head to the thought of it in the first place.

Now to dissect the survey further:

Most of the harassment was in the European Countries over the attire of women being too religious.

Can you try to explain that? where you say that the West, with all its problems is still better? Why would they harass someone for not showing enough skin?

Men should lower their gaze first (i.e. aankhon ka pardah) rather than harassing/attacking women or demanding women observe purdah without observing any purdah on their own eyes and behavior.

Please do not try to dodge the question. Men will lower their gaze if they do not find something to stare upon. Bad men will be bad men, but what about good men who are lured and tempted by the bare skin they see on the streets? They are not robots..... they have an anatomy which is instigated by such stimuli.

We demand punishment for the bad men who cross the limits, but we also want women to remain within their limits too.

Clearly address the question here Sir.... even if men lower their gaze, would women be allowed to wear whatever they want and show their bodies provocatively?

The real saints are those who let women be, keep their "animalistic urges" under control, and avoid calling themselves 'victims of temptations' to justify their actions

This might happen on the moon. However, on earth, things are put on display just to attract their customers. Simple psychology.

A hungry man will be always attracted to the sight and smell of food, no matter how religious or irreligious he is.

Men should use control over self, but does that give women the license to keep testing their limits?