The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed to manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinki

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
The problem with Indias naval build-up

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The whole rationale of aircraft carriers for middle-power navies like India needs to be re-examined in the interests of fiscal prudence and the creation of a navy that realistically serves Indias interests. Photo: Abhijit Bhatlekar/Mint
Much of the focus of Aero India 2017 was on the navys fighter requirement following the abject failure of the MiG-29K and the abandonment of Tejas. However, given that Indias capital acquisition budget will remain plateaued for the foreseeable future, the whole rationale of aircraft carriers for middle-power navies like India needs to be re-examined in the interests of fiscal prudence and the creation of a navy that realistically serves Indias interests, rather than ending up subsidizing dangerous delusions of grandeur.


Naval build-ups, because of their capital-intensive nature, are frequently more fatal to the originator than they are to the opposition. Admiral Tirpitzs build-up of the Imperial German Navy, for example, contributed to the German defeat in World War I, with no significant returns on the massive investment. Similarly, Admiral Gorshkovs expansion of the Soviet navy directly contributed to the fall of the USSR.


Both Tirpitz and Gorshkov were tactical geniuses who were unmitigated strategic disasters because they were economic ignoramuses, ignoring the military dictum of economy of effort where every action must extract a disproportionate cost from the opponent. Ominously, the INS Vikramaditya once bore the ill-fated name: Admiral Gorshkov.


The navy forwards three reasons for its carrier craze. First, the Chinese naval build-up and forays into the Indian Ocean; second, to dominate the littoral and project power; third, to protect the sea lanes of communication (SLOC) and, as a corollary, deny China energy supplies in the event of war. Not one of these reasons holds up to scrutiny.


The vast difference in the economies of China and India means that the former can counter our naval aviation assets many times over. Operationally, Chinas naval fighter, the Su-33, outclasses Indias failed MiG-29K. While Western naval fighters like the Rafale or F-18 are undeniably superior electronically, a cost difference of almost 10:1 in the Sukhois favour presents an insurmountable quantitative challenge. To quote Stalin, Quantity has a quality all of its own. This, in fact, is similar both to World War II, where Russian bulk overcame the Luftwaffes vast qualitative superiority, and the Falklands war where Harriers bested superior Argentine Mirages because Argentina failed to mobilize sufficient numbers or absorb high losses against the Harrier. Clearly, the quality-quantity matrix favours Chinese quantity over Indian quality.


Dominating the littoral with carriers is also a problematic proposition. A cursory glance at the Indian Ocean reveals two kinds of states herevery powerful ones and very weak ones. Sending all three carriers against powerful countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Pakistan, Singapore and Australia would be suicidal, with each of these countries possessing the ability to tackle Indias naval fighters effectively. On the other hand, even one aircraft carrier is a farcical overkill against countries like Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bangladesh, Somalia, Mauritius, Mozambique et al. This means the Indian carrier build-up answers a question nobody asked.


Protecting SLOCs, and in wartime destroying Chinas energy access, is best achieved by other assets. During peacetime, the best way to police the Indian Ocean is a fleet of cheap offshore patrol vessels. During wartime, the lack of littoral aircraft carriers means frigates with an excellent anti-submarine (ASW) component and air defence missiles are more than qualified to do the job. Yet, curiously, the critical ASW helicopter shortage is something the Indian Navy has dangerously subjugated to its quixotic quest for inutile carriers.


Denying the Indian Ocean to the Chinese navy in the event of war will mean countering two main threatstheir nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Chinese nuclear submarines will, in such a situation, challenge the Indian surface fleet and are best countered by a strong anti-submarine helicopter force for the fleet. Chinese aircraft carriers, on the other hand, are best countered by Indian submarines.


Submarines and anti-submarine components are also an area where India enjoys an advantage. Chinese submarines are noisy and relatively crude, whereas the Western submarines and helicopters that India has access to have superb stealth and electronic capabilities. In war games, conventional Western submarines have routinely sunk US aircraft carriers while avoiding detection. The latest generation of French sonars on British submarines is able to acoustically detect every single ship leaving New York harbour thousands of kilometres away.


While submarines are not cheap, they are much cheaper than aircraft carriers, play to Indias strength and meet our requirement set in a much more affordable, versatile and sustainable way.


In the final analysis, if India wants to change the current situation where it punches far below its weight, a shift to air-centrism is the only answer. However, an ill-planned, operationally inadequate and economically catastrophic air-centrism of the Indian Navy variety will do far more damage to Indian interests, with gains being illusory at best.


Being a serious player requires the ruthless culling of deadweight. And the bellwether for Indian seriousness will be decisions that the countrys strategic managers take on the future of aircraft carriers in lieu of realistic and affordable goals (read frigates, submarines and helicopters) that yield true bang for the buck in the short to medium term.

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/itCxLclcVmVqEu3rbEMaSO/The-problem-with-Indias-naval-buildup.html

Source http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/itCxLclcVmVqEu3rbEMaSO/The-problem-with-Indias-naval-buildup.html
 
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RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

I don't understand what the "wishful thinking" means in the title of thread.
It is just and analysis done by someone about its own Naval Capabilities and its pitfalls. It does never say it is going nose down.
Please don't undermine India on its capabilities. That will be the wishful thinking on our Pakistanis, If we do so.
 

RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

One thing that we always forget or deliberately do not bring into equation is that, the conventional might India carries compared to us, is huge. And with our staggering and dragging economy, we will not be able to equate it at all. All we have is the suicide bomber type capability of Nukes. But mind it, May Allah protect us, whoever will start it will end in massing destructions on both sides. With the depth that India has, it is quite possible that India will emerge up again. But looking at the geography, India has capability to cut us like a saw. And after it all ends, we will be vanished completely as a single country.
In this case it is even vital that we establish stronger economic and strategic ties with china so that China keeps its interests in Pakistan, whether as being our trustworthy friend or to protect its stacks.
 

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

I don't understand what the "wishful thinking" means in the title of thread.
It is just and analysis done by someone about its own Naval Capabilities and its pitfalls. It does never say it is going nose down.
Please don't undermine India on its capabilities. That will be the wishful thinking on our Pakistanis, If we do so.

India for one cannot sustain those aircraft carrier if in case of sending out in war zone for for more than two weeks.
Second I have great value in India Navy for which we Pakistani lack the will to create one.
Thirdly a lot of Pakistan Navy officers have said if a battle between any aircraft carrier fleet in mid east is required, the Pakistan forces can operate from West most geographic part of Iran Pakistan border and deploy it's aircraft on the go from land covering Tel Aviv.
 

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

One thing that we always forget or deliberately do not bring into equation is that, the conventional might India carries compared to us, is huge. And with our staggering and dragging economy, we will not be able to equate it at all. All we have is the suicide bomber type capability of Nukes. But mind it, May Allah protect us, whoever will start it will end in massing destructions on both sides. With the depth that India has, it is quite possible that India will emerge up again. But looking at the geography, India has capability to cut us like a saw. And after it all ends, we will be vanished completely as a single country.
In this case it is even vital that we establish stronger economic and strategic ties with china so that China keeps its interests in Pakistan, whether as being our trustworthy friend or to protect its stacks.
I totally disrespect this statement by you, for suicide bombers! First it is india who is utilizing suicide bombers targeting inside our country? Please confirm your alliances first here?
You are looking at it one sided that is from Indian gossips point of view, god knows what propaganda you are reading, but in factual analysis it was Pakistan Army soldiers who infiltrated and kicked out Indian soldiers from kargil war and managed with least amount of casualty of a rate of 10,000 per 150 soldiers in our favour?? India dare attack us from front, but suicide bombings have quadruple those figures now. India doesn't look eye to eye do you know that???
 

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Lastly I don't think the answer lies BTW Pakistan or India establish a string economic ties after TRUMP elections, look at the grim realities, there should be at least a small conventional war to speak about grim realities, but that is my opinion as strategist.
 

RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

No please don't take my world of suicidal bomber as literary as I said. I meant that once nuclear war triggers it will not stop until the total destruction on both sides.
2ndly the India's aircraft carriers are not so valuable against Pakistan, because if they want to wage the war they have such a huge border to start any where, why on the sea only.
3rdly. Please correct your figures on Kargil. And I would not like to get going on at as it is too late and I am tired from whole day. Just know this that our Chooha Musharuf did not have any plan how to retrieve under attack. He had plans to retrieve under ceasefire only. And as a result of it we lost almost a division when we they started kicking our @22. We left the corpses of our Jawans laying there for week and did not go to pick them up.
Be factual and accept please. (and dont put me on the india's side after reading this).


I totally disrespect this statement by you, for suicide bombers! First it is india who is utilizing suicide bombers targeting inside our country? Please confirm your alliances first here?
You are looking at it one sided that is from Indian gossips point of view, god knows what propaganda you are reading, but in factual analysis it was Pakistan Army soldiers who infiltrated and kicked out Indian soldiers from kargil war and managed with least amount of casualty of a rate of 10,000 per 150 soldiers in our favour?? India dare attack us from front, but suicide bombings have quadruple those figures now. India doesn't look eye to eye do you know that???
 

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

No please don't take my world of suicidal bomber as literary as I said. I meant that once nuclear war triggers it will not stop until the total destruction on both sides.
2ndly the India's aircraft carriers are not so valuable against Pakistan, because if they want to wage the war they have such a huge border to start any where, why on the sea only.
3rdly. Please correct your figures on Kargil. And I would not like to get going on at as it is too late and I am tired from whole day. Just know this that our Chooha Musharuf did not have any plan how to retrieve under attack. He had plans to retrieve under ceasefire only. And as a result of it we lost almost a division when we they started kicking our @22. We left the corpses of our Jawans laying there for week and did not go to pick them up.
Be factual and accept please. (and dont put me on the india's side after reading this).
Alright agree in difference , but one thing remains unchanged BTW Indian Army and Pakistan Army, the difference of terming Surgical strike way different in Indian based allegations to Pakistani Kargil deadily Surgical annihilation of 10,000 Dead +soldiers, needless these are the correct figures and I fail to agree we lost a division??? ? There were only 150 soldiers on our side??
 
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Lastly I don't think the answer lies BTW Pakistan or India establish a string economic ties after TRUMP elections, look at the grim realities, there should be at least a small conventional war to speak about grim realities, but that is my opinion as strategist.

I totally disrespect this statement by you, for suicide bombers! First it is india who is utilizing suicide bombers targeting inside our country? Please confirm your alliances first here?
You are looking at it one sided that is from Indian gossips point of view, god knows what propaganda you are reading, but in factual analysis it was Pakistan Army soldiers who infiltrated and kicked out Indian soldiers from kargil war and managed with least amount of casualty of a rate of 10,000 per 150 soldiers in our favour?? India dare attack us from front, but suicide bombings have quadruple those figures now. India doesn't look eye to eye do you know that???

Alright agree in difference , but one thing remains unchanged BTW Indian Army and Pakistan Army, the difference of terming Surgical strike way different in Indian based allegations to Pakistani Kargil deadily Surgical annihilation of 10,000 Dead +soldiers, needless these are the correct figures and I fail to agree we lost a division??? ? There were only 150 soldiers on our side??




giphy.gif



abdali aur ghaznawi ki aulad ? (bigsmile)

abdali aur ghaznawi wale tumhe ura rahe hai bombing me .

tum kargil me apne jawano ki lashen kyo chhor kar bhaag gaye the ?
 

RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Come on now don't show your typical Hindu Brehman Mentality. Bachey don't think the conventional war is the only war we can fight with you. There is lot more that we can stick up in your a22. And you know what I mean.
kargil men yes we did but that was the planning of an Idiot, who we majority here don't take as a General.



giphy.gif



abdali aur ghaznawi ki aulad ? (bigsmile)

abdali aur ghaznawi wale tumhe ura rahe hai bombing me .

tum kargil me apne jawano ki lashen kyo chhor kar bhaag gaye the ?
 

RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

And for your info. This is very unfortunate that in Pakistan we have two poles Military and Civilian, (which you don't have in india). Often our army goes out of hands from the civilians control and this results in the Kargil type incident (which was totally army's action). At that time civilian Govt was not involved completely into it, otherwise we could have achieved quite better results.
The tide turned when Civilian Govt asked the Idiot Musharuf to stop un called for war, otherwise you people ran out like dogs from Kargil.
Go and see the facts

giphy.gif



abdali aur ghaznawi ki aulad ? (bigsmile)

abdali aur ghaznawi wale tumhe ura rahe hai bombing me .

tum kargil me apne jawano ki lashen kyo chhor kar bhaag gaye the ?
 

360turn

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

And for your info. This is very unfortunate that in Pakistan we have two poles Military and Civilian, (which you don't have in india). Often our army goes out of hands from the civilians control and this results in the Kargil type incident (which was totally army's action). At that time civilian Govt was not involved completely into it, otherwise we could have achieved quite better results.
The tide turned when Civilian Govt asked the Idiot Musharuf to stop un called for war, otherwise you people ran out like dogs from Kargil.
Go and see the facts
Another Hindu Indian on forums with fake ID .. all cuss words coming from none other than hateful Hindu on Pakistani forum's...Ha ha my thread proved unable to digest facts from Hindu fiction mythology of everything ha ha !
 
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Come on now don't show your typical Hindu Brehman Mentality. Bachey don't think the conventional war is the only war we can fight with you. There is lot more that we can stick up in your a22. And you know what I mean.
kargil men yes we did but that was the planning of an Idiot, who we majority here don't take as a General.


ha ha ha .................i am rajput (bigsmile)

i hope you know rajputs as your names suggests , so don't tell me bania brahman etc.:)
 
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Another Hindu Indian on forums with fake ID .. all cuss words coming from none other than hateful Hindu on Pakistani forum's...Ha ha my thread proved unable to digest facts from Hindu fiction mythology of everything ha ha !


kyo be hazzam india ke thread banayega ?

jawab sun kar rona shuru kar deta hai ? kargil se kyon bhaga ? ha ha ha ha....................:lol::lol::lol:
 
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RajaRawal111

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: The problem with Indias naval build-up ( they failed manage One aircraft carrier ) wishful thinking !!!

Sorry if i offended you. Dont know your origin but you know we are quite India eccentric here when it comes to the muscle power.
However the relationship of human and cultural connections with India can never be eliminated. Personally i wish peace and friendship, but will always stand under my Flag, if I have to.
And I can understand you also feel same way. Patriotism is one of the traits we all are born with.

ha ha ha .................i am rajput (bigsmile)

i hope you know rajputs as your names suggests , so don't tell me bania brahman etc.:)
 

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