Science and Religion: a relationship described by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhai
- Thread starter Sisyphus
- Start date
The real question is, what is knowledge? Before we could answer this question we need to know whether we are talking about mere existence of knowledge itself or we are talking about its acquirement and its use.
Knowledge exists or not matters not if it has nothing to do with human beings. Only if we relate knowledge to human beings that it becomes important. Knowledge was there before our birth and it will be there after we are dead. It did not matter for us before our birth and it does not matter for us after we are dead.
Knowledge only and only matters for us if we relate it to ourselves. When we relate knowledge to ourselves then knowledge only matters for us in the sense it matters ie it helps our existence and survival. Otherwise we would not have learned it at all. So it is clear that knowledge is information that helps us exist. For example, to exist we must have what we need to exist eg clean air, clean water, good food, shelter, reproduction etc etc. All this needs information, not just information but information that makes sensible so that we could use it to benefit from it. Any piece of information that makes no sense cannot be used to benefit from.
From human point of view our original sources of knowledge are our brains and senses. Or whatever we come to know is stored in our brains and it all comes only and only from our senses. This is what we call life time experiences in form of memories. Knowledge not only what we see and hear but what we make of it ie brain after getting information from outside works on its and expands its store of knowledge accordingly. For example, we do not just sense things but we know what colour they are, how near or far they are how light or heavy they are, how small or large they are etc etc. Just having a little bit of information we have capability of building on it a big picture. This all scientific knowledge because it makes sense. Information that does not make sense is mere information and not knowledge in strict sense of knowledge because knowledge is something we know in some sense or another.
Only after our human experience we come to realise that we need more information than we already have to explain to ourselves our origin and purpose. It is at this stage we search for information that we cannot have through our senses and brain alone no matter how hard we try.
At this stage we have people who have that information and they are looking for people to share it with and at the same time we have people who are also looking that information. As they meet the two semi-circles become one complete cycle.
At this stage question also arises how did those special people come to get that knowledge in the first place? This is explained in surah 53 al najam. All we can say is something happens in such peoples' brains ie we do not yet know what or how it happens and we may never know but we know it happens because the message they serve out to humanity and call it divine carries its own authority within itself.
Thus we end up with two independent sources of information a)the information we gain through our own life experience and b)the divine information. However, just as information even through our own very experience is useless till we make sense of it, so is information based upon divine revelation. The way we make sense of our own self collected information the very same way we must make sense of information through divine revelation so that we could use it for our benefit. It is like books are only useful if we make use of them otherwise they can lie on the shelf and collect dust.
So information plus our knowledge of it plus its use brings results or fulfils the goal.
Our problem as a nation is most of us are not bothered even to collect information, even if some do, many of them are not bothered to make sense of it and even if few of us do that yet hardly any of us bothers to make use of it. The result almost zero progress.
The next question is, why we have become a dead nation? I think some of the reasons explained in videos make sense and we can add to them.
I would disagree with dr parwez sb that the quran is to blame for holding back our progress because had that been the case muslims ought not to be an advance civilisation at all ever. I do not see anything wrong in the actual quranic text though I would say that I do not see much right with quranic translations and interpretations. However since this nation does not derive its knowledge from study of the quran directly rather they learn the quran through faulty translations and interpretations therefore fault lies in that ie lack of proper study of the quranic text. This has been already explained by sir syed and iqbal etc in great detail generations back. Even dr israr explains the same thing in the video above. Therefore blaming quran is not right at all and target should be mullahism and secularism based on imperialism and capitalism of ruling elite instead.
I also disagree with dr israr sb marhoom that laws of nature can be suspended by Allah. Allah never plans things haphazardly that he traps himself and then he has to go back on his plan. He simply put, never needed to interrupt working of universe. The natural world was setup by Allah to keep going the way it does. If word could be interrupted once it could be interrupted any number of times. The idea that Allah can do anything at any time is dangerous idea and anti islam because if a being is able to act like this then no promise of such being can be trustable at all. We therefore must accept that Allah is bound by his promises and plans once he has committed himself to them. The matter of power of rules over God only becomes a problem if some one else had forced Allah into doing those things by his rules. If it is Allah's own choice to do things in a certain way why there has to be a problem? How does it take away power of Allah? Allah has created this world, has Allah now the choice to go back to state in which he was before creation of this world? It would seem silly to think like this because what is done is done and it was done out of choice by Allah.
So sir syed's contention is solid as rock and mullahs have no choice but to accept that he was right all along. The idea of mojizaat and karamaat in sense of supernatural events is not islamic at all but borrowed from other religions to fight back their ignorance of divine will. Islam is based upon divine revelations and divine inspirations not on supernatural events. There is no proof whatsoever that any supernatural event ever took place or is taking place anywhere in the world even today. Such stories are myths not miracles that actually disprove claims not prove them.
Knowledge exists or not matters not if it has nothing to do with human beings. Only if we relate knowledge to human beings that it becomes important. Knowledge was there before our birth and it will be there after we are dead. It did not matter for us before our birth and it does not matter for us after we are dead.
Knowledge only and only matters for us if we relate it to ourselves. When we relate knowledge to ourselves then knowledge only matters for us in the sense it matters ie it helps our existence and survival. Otherwise we would not have learned it at all. So it is clear that knowledge is information that helps us exist. For example, to exist we must have what we need to exist eg clean air, clean water, good food, shelter, reproduction etc etc. All this needs information, not just information but information that makes sensible so that we could use it to benefit from it. Any piece of information that makes no sense cannot be used to benefit from.
From human point of view our original sources of knowledge are our brains and senses. Or whatever we come to know is stored in our brains and it all comes only and only from our senses. This is what we call life time experiences in form of memories. Knowledge not only what we see and hear but what we make of it ie brain after getting information from outside works on its and expands its store of knowledge accordingly. For example, we do not just sense things but we know what colour they are, how near or far they are how light or heavy they are, how small or large they are etc etc. Just having a little bit of information we have capability of building on it a big picture. This all scientific knowledge because it makes sense. Information that does not make sense is mere information and not knowledge in strict sense of knowledge because knowledge is something we know in some sense or another.
Only after our human experience we come to realise that we need more information than we already have to explain to ourselves our origin and purpose. It is at this stage we search for information that we cannot have through our senses and brain alone no matter how hard we try.
At this stage we have people who have that information and they are looking for people to share it with and at the same time we have people who are also looking that information. As they meet the two semi-circles become one complete cycle.
At this stage question also arises how did those special people come to get that knowledge in the first place? This is explained in surah 53 al najam. All we can say is something happens in such peoples' brains ie we do not yet know what or how it happens and we may never know but we know it happens because the message they serve out to humanity and call it divine carries its own authority within itself.
Thus we end up with two independent sources of information a)the information we gain through our own life experience and b)the divine information. However, just as information even through our own very experience is useless till we make sense of it, so is information based upon divine revelation. The way we make sense of our own self collected information the very same way we must make sense of information through divine revelation so that we could use it for our benefit. It is like books are only useful if we make use of them otherwise they can lie on the shelf and collect dust.
So information plus our knowledge of it plus its use brings results or fulfils the goal.
Our problem as a nation is most of us are not bothered even to collect information, even if some do, many of them are not bothered to make sense of it and even if few of us do that yet hardly any of us bothers to make use of it. The result almost zero progress.
The next question is, why we have become a dead nation? I think some of the reasons explained in videos make sense and we can add to them.
I would disagree with dr parwez sb that the quran is to blame for holding back our progress because had that been the case muslims ought not to be an advance civilisation at all ever. I do not see anything wrong in the actual quranic text though I would say that I do not see much right with quranic translations and interpretations. However since this nation does not derive its knowledge from study of the quran directly rather they learn the quran through faulty translations and interpretations therefore fault lies in that ie lack of proper study of the quranic text. This has been already explained by sir syed and iqbal etc in great detail generations back. Even dr israr explains the same thing in the video above. Therefore blaming quran is not right at all and target should be mullahism and secularism based on imperialism and capitalism of ruling elite instead.
I also disagree with dr israr sb marhoom that laws of nature can be suspended by Allah. Allah never plans things haphazardly that he traps himself and then he has to go back on his plan. He simply put, never needed to interrupt working of universe. The natural world was setup by Allah to keep going the way it does. If word could be interrupted once it could be interrupted any number of times. The idea that Allah can do anything at any time is dangerous idea and anti islam because if a being is able to act like this then no promise of such being can be trustable at all. We therefore must accept that Allah is bound by his promises and plans once he has committed himself to them. The matter of power of rules over God only becomes a problem if some one else had forced Allah into doing those things by his rules. If it is Allah's own choice to do things in a certain way why there has to be a problem? How does it take away power of Allah? Allah has created this world, has Allah now the choice to go back to state in which he was before creation of this world? It would seem silly to think like this because what is done is done and it was done out of choice by Allah.
So sir syed's contention is solid as rock and mullahs have no choice but to accept that he was right all along. The idea of mojizaat and karamaat in sense of supernatural events is not islamic at all but borrowed from other religions to fight back their ignorance of divine will. Islam is based upon divine revelations and divine inspirations not on supernatural events. There is no proof whatsoever that any supernatural event ever took place or is taking place anywhere in the world even today. Such stories are myths not miracles that actually disprove claims not prove them.
