Religion, Atheism And Secularism

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)
By Ram Puniyani10 August, 2013
Countercurrents.org

Last three decades have seen an unprecedented presence of religion in social and political space. Somewhere the acts of terror, somewhere communal violence and somewhere the political influence of religious right on society and political processes, all these phenomenon have overshadowed the deeper inequities in the society, the aspirations of people for dignity and rights amongst others. Now comes a book which predicts that religions will become a minority vis a vis the practice of secularism in the decade of 2040s. The book is Why Atheism will replace religion: The triumph of earthly pleasures over pie in the sky written by Nigel Barber. This book relates the rise/fall of the religion with economic power and makes an observation that atheists are much more in developed countries.

The book is based on the study of 137 nations conducted by the author and concludes that in the countries; more developed the welfare system; higher is the number of atheists. The books crunch line is, in countries where distribution of income is even, lesser is the number of religious people. The author is a prominent psychologist. He makes a prediction that people will feel lesser need of supernatural beliefs when the tangible world is providing them for their real needs. Also in a survey conducted in America 20% people identified themselves as Atheists.

There is some terminological confusion here to begin with, while the study is a very reasoned one, and links the lack of security with the belief in god and practice of religiosity. Surely many a religions themselves have atheism as a component of their structure. Some streams of Hinduism like Charvak deny the existence of God. Jainism and Buddhism also do not talk of a supernatural power, but its another matter that followers of these religions converted the prophets of these religions themselves as Gods and are worshipping them. In the broad umbrella of Hinduism there are many traditions, Brahminism, Nath, Taantra, Bhakti, Siddh etc. In Hinduism itself the concept of God is also very diverse, from the polytheism with multiple Gods and Goddesses, tri-theism (Brahma Vishnu Mahesh) to the single God; Ishwar and then to the concept of formless power all these concepts are coexisting together merrily today.

In India thee atheist tradition starting from Charvak, in present times it found a strong articulation amongst communists the epitome of which has been Bhagat Singh with his famous tract, Why I am an Athiest. Also radical social reformers like Periyar Ramsamy Naicker gave the atheist movement a powerful lift. The rationalists association is nurturing the same to a great extent.

Other religions, where there is a single God, the concept of God keeps varying between the God with form and body to the formless power. Many decades ago a plethora of books debated about the existence of God. But last three decades in particular have seen a very different phenomenon i.e. gross abuse of religions identity by the political forces of status quo. Earlier to this, one saw in the beginning of 20th century, in the decade of 1920s, Christian Fundamentalism was a response of the conservative sections of society to the process of social change brought about by the process of industrialization and education due to which Africa-Americans and women started coming to social space. Islamic fundamentalism makes a political appearance with the regime of Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Here it was the politics related to oil and the high handed politics of Western powers which foiled the popular revolution and brought in a cleric as the head of the state. It was during this period that conservative versions of Islam were promoted by some of the rulers who were scared of popular urges for democracy. Salafi version of Islam is one such which was used in Saudi Arabia to keep a tight leash over the popular aspirations so that the Saudi oil can keep flowing in to the tankers of oil companies controlled by US-UK giants.

It is the same Salafi version of Islam which was brought in to the service of US hegemonic interest to control the oil in the region. This version was taught in the Madrassas in Pakistan. These Madrassas were set up with US instigation, money and syllabus, through which the Mujahedeen, Taliban Al Qaeda emerged and played into the hands of US designs of throwing away Soviet army from Afghanistan. In India, the insecurity of the section of middle classes in the face of rising presence of dalits and women in social space in the decade of 1980s led to the political abuse of religions identity by BJP when it took up the issue of Ram temple.

While the author of the book is talking about the release of the hold of religiosity and God with rising affluence, today sitting in South Asia the scenario seems to be the other way around. In Pakistan the hold of Mullahs on the social affairs is a big obstacle to the firm rooting of democracy there. In Sri Lanka again thousands of Tamils were butchered while attacking LTTE, lately one is seeing an attack on Christians and Muslims there. Not to be left behind, in Myanmar, the retrograde political forces are attacking poor Rohingya Muslims in the name of Buddhism.

One must add that there is no contradiction between secularism and religion. The author of this book is not clear on this. With secularization process, the role of clergy was relegated to the private sphere of society but religion as such was there. God was there. Its now that with prosperity going above the critical levels that more people are feeling less need to call upon God to help them live a secure life. In South Asian countries a complex process had been witnessed all through. While people with great amount of religiosity and belief in God like Mahatma Gandhi and Mualan Abul Kalam Azad stood for secular state, the non practicing Muslim like Jinnah led the movement for a state in the name of Islam and an atheist Savarkar, was the ideologue of Hindu nation. Many a leaders of Hindu national politics may not be so religious but in the political arena, they create mass hysteria in the name of religion and God.

One wishes to agree with the authors prediction. Hope it is not restricted just to Western countries. What is more important is to realize is that mass spectacles of religiosity are an expression of deeper social insecurities, which are being cashed in by the politicians of status quo, who are deliberately using this religious identity to ensure that social distribution of resources to weaker sections is stalled. Today in India one can see a clear cut battle between those who stand for social welfare, and struggle to bring in measures go in that direction on one side. On the other are those political forces that resort to polarize the communities along religious lines, around identity issues. The latter have a social base amongst the socially insecure middle classes and the backing of section of big corporate houses. Seeing the pains of this battle between two paths, one turns pessimistic at times whether if at all, South Asia can get over the imposition of God-Religion in political arena and focus on improving prosperity with equitable distribution in society. In many a propaganda-claims being made for development the factor of equitable growth is missing and thats where the real definition of development lies. The bluff of development by communal forces has to be countered and the emphasis on the growth with concern for equity, affirmative action for the victim religious minorities and dalits-adivasis is the core around which the battle against the blind religiosity and assertions of politics in the name of religion has to be taken forward.

Western countries though far from the ideal in prosperity and growth, at least do not have the baggage of politics of religions identity in such a strong way as is prevalent in post-colonial states; that is dogging South, West Asia in particular. This book gives the hope as far as prosperity and equity is concerned one hopes that this applies to the troubled countries where abuse of religions identity is playing havoc with the concept of human rights and survival of large sections of society.
Ram Puniyani was a professor in biomedical engineering at the Indian Institute of Technology Bombay, and took voluntary retirement in December 2004 to work full time for communal harmony in India. He is involved with human rights activities from last two decades.He is associated with various secular and democratic initiatives like All India Secular Forum, Center for Study of Society and Secularism and ANHAD.

http://www.countercurrents.org/puniyani100813.htm
 

lurker

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I got nothing against a religious order of government, but first you gotta make one and then make it work. If you cannot make it work in a smooth fashion it is time to think of something else. You cannot change the hearts and minds of people. But you can give them peace. For places like Pakistan, Secularism is the medicine that is needed. Not the halfass version of it, but the full fledged one. It is time to put religion squarely in its place, not because that is what is ideal, but it is because the religious orthodoxy has failed to give us an Islamic Pakistan in all accords. And We, The muslims of Pakistan have failed to accept Islam in all accords. Perhaps in another era, you can think of bringing Islam back into the republic. For now you need to heal the wound that has been festering. For now you need a bandage called Secularism. Otherwise you will continue to hemorrhage. I am sure God will forgive you for bringing peace for now at the expense of Islam for later.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Atheists, agnostics and no religion group now makes up the third largest group after Christianity and Islam with one billion in this group with high income and prosperous life when compared with religious groups. It is a very peaceful group with outstanding human rights record.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You have no authority to refute the ideology of Pakistan which is ISLAM and ONLYa Governance Model which Enforces Shariah and Islam is acceptable in Pakistan according to the OBJECTIVE RESOLUTION in the Constitution of Pakistan (bigsmile)

your secular dream is almost done now with democracy taking a big beat and you will see it being completely replaced in the future :lol:

General Zia and several of our boys have done a wonderfull job !

I got nothing against a religious order of government, but first you gotta make one and then make it work. If you cannot make it work in a smooth fashion it is time to think of something else. You cannot change the hearts and minds of people. But you can give them peace. For places like Pakistan, Secularism is the medicine that is needed. Not the halfass version of it, but the full fledged one. It is time to put religion squarely in its place, not because that is what is ideal, but it is because the religious orthodoxy has failed to give us an Islamic Pakistan in all accords. And We, The muslims of Pakistan have failed to accept Islam in all accords. Perhaps in another era, you can think of bringing Islam back into the republic. For now you need to heal the wound that has been festering. For now you need a bandage called Secularism. Otherwise you will continue to hemorrhage. I am sure God will forgive you for bringing peace for now at the expense of Islam for later.
 
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modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
agnostics, atheists are not ONE monolithic group and they definitely dont have ONE ideology as each one of them has a seperate ideology based on their perception with tilts to existing religions :lol::lol:

First ascribe to a moral code and then come and talk to any religion :lol::lol:

Atheists, agnostics and no religion group now makes up the third largest group after Christianity and Islam with one billion in this group with high income and prosperous life when compared with religious groups. It is a very peaceful group with outstanding human rights record.
 

Unicorn

Banned
agnostics, atheists are not ONE monolithic group and they definitely dont have ONE ideology as each one of them has a seperate ideology based on their perception with tilts to existing religions :lol::lol:

First ascribe to a moral code and then come and talk to any religion :lol::lol:

Congratulations (clap)(clap)(clap) for the first time your brain fired up. You are correct we are not one monolithic group. We are the people who have lots of questions with very few answers that makes us a diverse group. You on the other side are people with lots of answers and very few questions and that also make you a diverse group.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
When you dont have knowledge of something then you shouldnt engage in a conversation involving it otherwise you have seen the humiliation you have had to face (bigsmile)

Congratulations for the first time your brain fired up. You are correct we are not one monolithic group. We are the people who have lots of questions with very few answers that makes us a diverse group. You on the other side are people with lots of answers and very few questions and that also make you a diverse group.
 

Unicorn

Banned
When you dont have knowledge of something then you shouldnt engage in a conversation involving it otherwise you have seen the humiliation you have had to face (bigsmile)

Last I knew you were so humiliated that you had to take 3 days off.

People of knowledge have only questions its the people without knowledge who live a ritualistic life .
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dont hate us soo much Joghini that you have to remind us of how many days you took off when you lost got your back whooped [hilar][hilar][hilar]

How can one live a ritualistic life without knowledge ?? ...Again dumb comments are not going to help.

Remember what Katju said right ?? ...90 % of Indians are what ?? [hilar][hilar][hilar]

Last I knew you were so humiliated that you had to take 3 days off.

People of knowledge have only questions its the people without knowledge who live a ritualistic life .
 

Unicorn

Banned
Dont hate us soo much Joghini that you have to remind us of how many days you took off when you lost got your back whooped [hilar][hilar][hilar]

How can one live a ritualistic life without knowledge ?? ...Again dumb comments are not going to help.

Remember what Katju said right ?? ...90 % of Indians are what ?? [hilar][hilar][hilar]

I have seen you commenting on rituals that you find stupid (yapping)(yapping)(yapping)
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
And how does this prove that the people performing them dont have any knowledge of why it is so ?? ..The logic of that knowledge maybe dumb but that doesnt mean they dont have a dumb argument !(bigsmile)

I have seen you commenting on rituals that you find stupid
 

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)
Atheists, agnostics and no religion group now makes up the third largest group after Christianity and Islam with one billion in this group with high income and prosperous life when compared with religious groups. It is a very peaceful group with outstanding human rights record.

Ground realities.....Japan is also an atheist majority country and see their progress for all these years. Same's the case with many nations of EU and check their welfare system. God asks his creation to ponder over what's present so it's the job of human beings to conquer whatever is around them and establish a Kingdom of God on this planet rather than praying and do rituals ignoring human suffering and environment getting screwed, spending money on rituals, and at the end of the day thinking that Ah one day I am gonna die and there'll be an ever green life their in Paradise. Did you watch the movie Oh My God by the way, it's a great satire.
 

A.G.Uddin

Minister (2k+ posts)
My personal opinion: Atheism and Mullahism (Extremism) are two extremes, perhaps opposite of each other. One symbolizes the arrogance of human brain against all elements of nature and concept of Makafat e Amal (God's justice and virtue). Whereas, the other signifies the helplessness of human mind and intellect, in front of the authority of a handful of religious clerics/bigots.
 

desicad

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
My personal opinion: Atheism and Mullahism (Extremism) are two extremes, perhaps opposite of each other. One symbolizes the arrogance of human brain against all elements of nature and concept of Makafat e Amal (God's justice and virtue). Whereas, the other signifies the helplessness of human mind and intellect, in front of the authority of a handful of religious clerics/bigots.
Atheism in not an extreme by any stretch.......Atheists don't issue any diktats and nor do they indulge in any violent behaviour to make others believe in their point of view.......and second it is not arrogance as you put it, I will call it rationality of human brain.......;)
 

Unicorn

Banned
Ground realities.....Japan is also an atheist majority country and see their progress for all these years. Same's the case with many nations of EU and check their welfare system. God asks his creation to ponder over what's present so it's the job of human beings to conquer whatever is around them and establish a Kingdom of God on this planet rather than praying and do rituals ignoring human suffering and environment getting screwed, spending money on rituals, and at the end of the day thinking that Ah one day I am gonna die and there'll be an ever green life their in Paradise. Did you watch the movie Oh My God by the way, it's a great satire.

Humans by nature are inquisitive I don't believe that god has anything to do with it even kids who have never read any scriptures or had very little exposure to religion are very inquisitive. The god that I been told of is quite capable and does not require my help in establishing his/her kingdom I am just trying my best to cope with this natural world using all my tools that nature has given me specially power of questioning in witch lies the salvation not in idol or scriptures.
 

Unicorn

Banned
And how does this prove that the people performing them dont have any knowledge of why it is so ?? ..The logic of that knowledge maybe dumb but that doesnt mean they dont have a dumb argument !(bigsmile)

You are the one calling them fools not me. I defend their right to be stupid(bigsmile)
 

lurker

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Is there ANY job in Pakistan since 1947 that ANY Pakistani has ever done wonderfully? lol. Naah man. You had ample time to beat the odds, but you guys are still killing your own women and children all in the name of Islam and a dream of a bygone era which seems really far away as ever from even being accomplished. Where is your Khalifah? Recurring question. ;)

You have no authority to refute the ideology of Pakistan which is ISLAM and ONLYa Governance Model which Enforces Shariah and Islam is acceptable in Pakistan according to the OBJECTIVE RESOLUTION in the Constitution of Pakistan (bigsmile)

your secular dream is almost done now with democracy taking a big beat and you will see it being completely replaced in the future :lol:

General Zia and several of our boys have done a wonderfull job !
 

only_truths

Minister (2k+ posts)
My personal opinion: Atheism and Mullahism (Extremism) are two extremes, perhaps opposite of each other. One symbolizes the arrogance of human brain against all elements of nature and concept of Makafat e Amal (God's justice and virtue). Whereas, the other signifies the helplessness of human mind and intellect, in front of the authority of a handful of religious clerics/bigots.

There is a thin line between arrogance and feeling of superiority. Atheists tend to become extreme only when they try to prove non-existence of God. Religious extremism started only after the advent of Mullahism and this probably is spreading to other religions including the so called peaceful Buddhists. It is interesting to note that strong followers of religion have been great secularists !