Probable Reason behind IK/PTI's recent frustration

[Kavalier]

As long as there was some backing form Establishment, specially military, it was seen that PAT/PTI/IK/Sheikh Rasheed etc were following a definite path and were also trying to look hopeful from some quarters. Even then was IK and PTI giving immature statements, but stil they were not looking frustrated and hopeless. I guess they had high hopes from Raheel Shareef and his team. Raheel and army played sensibly and cleverly, as they mostly do by using such pressure groups, and kept not only their grip tight on most of fhe matters but also tried to pose army as the all time Saviour etc. They used all their machinery for propaganda, either in media or on streets. General got the much needed publicity for himself and his institution and PTI/PAT supporters were jumping everwhere on social media along with estab planted anchors who gave dates and fake news every day by twisting the facts.

Now it can be seen that NS has a firm grip on matters and estab aka army also seems to be relatively neutral at the moment, so parties like IK are not findind any hints, any signals etc. With the present set-up, there is no doubt that in 2018 PMLN and PPP based governments will be all over the country and in center too. Immature politics plus clever tactics of PPP/PMLN/JUI etc has sidelined electoral reforms aside and also PTI didnt focus on KPK govt. There was always a carrot from other parties thus diverting PTI concentration and efforts in false and useless things. I highly doubt some of IK's accomplices, specially Qureshi etc, who are fully involved to divert PTI from real path.

Now that there is very less time left for next elections ,once again these accomplices are giving false ideas to an already immature, self centered chairman who has this strange feeling that other than him all are wrong. It is a different PTI than thart which had Justice Wajih, Omer Cheema, Hamid Khan , Naseem zahra, Admiral Javed etc. Those brains were mature and had a newer look at changing the political culture. What do you people think that people like Qureshi, Aleem Khan, Tareen and Qasori/Raja Riaz etc will change our political culture? No they won't because they are all produced from this system and they only know how to exist in this system. This is the reason that IK is turning very quickly to 90's politics of PMLN and PPP and SHiekh Rasheed types are making it sure that IK even lose whatever he has at the moment. With this speed, I have no doubt that PTI will not even manage half the votes it got in 2013.

This is my personal view, please refrain from bad mouthing me. If you have a different view , you can share it decently, otherwise better move to next thread praising IK's hair style and his heroics in 1992 world cup.

 

[sab_tamasha_hai]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Lol stopped reading this BS after 5 lines. For your information, Raheel Shareef did not got famous because there were fake news. He brought terrorism 70% down in the country. He brought peace to bloody streets of Karachi, and people loved him for his service. Get your facts straight before you post crap.

 

[Munawarkhan]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

My view PTI are waiting for SC results. I always believe that IK was never looking at Raheel Sharif, he didn't even exist as a name when IK gained popularity.

The reason Army and govt didn't clash is because the govt didn't have the balls to intervene in Army's decision - be it Zarb-Azab, Ranger Karachi operation or the current operation. Nothing was done with the approval of the parliament or by briefing the govt. They just did what they thought was right for Pakistan. Only if every govt dept (NAB, ECP, FIA, SEC, PEMRA, OGRA and others) did the same thing, NS would be out within a year of coming into power.

In my view the current govt has failed in governance and improving the system for long run. They have survived due to low oil prices and huge amount of loans that they acquired. This money gave them prospect to announce multiple things, but unless they fix the system nothing good can come out of any department. Because they had a huge strength in the parliament, they did what they though was better for their party to survive rather than for Pakistan.

Good short term strategy, but not good for the country in long run.

The only one in loss will be us (the people of Pakistan)

 

[Will_Bite]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Lol.
Personal views are in abundance these days. If you want to be fair in your assessment, then being fair means being fair. You cant act partisan, and then say that oh, it was my unbiased opinion. At least be honest about it.

Im trying to see where PTI seems frustrated. As a matter of fact, in the Panama case proceedings, PTI has done a very good job, working with the circumstantial evidence that they had. It seems like NAwaz Sharif knew that his tangible evidence wont be able to defeat PTI's circumstantial evidence, which is why he never bothered to show a single piece of tangible evidence. The frustration was when the likes of Saad Rafiqu and Talal Ch. stood there and indirectly threatened the SC to give a judgment in their favor. We are not kids.

We know PMLN's history with the institutions. The only thing I fear is that they will find a weak spot in the judiciary, and be able to blackmail their way to a judgment that exonerates them. PMLN's history is littered with such incidents. The attack on Supreme Court and call to Justice Qayum were a part of it.

PTI never needed the help of the establishment.
If the establishment wants to prop someone up, they know how to get the job done. They were able to gather a rag tag group of minion parties in the late 80s and create IJI, and make it win.
They were able to create a 'winner' out of the Chaudhry family, and make PMLQ the winner in 2002. So its surprising that the establishment hasnt been able to prop up PTI in all these years. BS

Lets wait for the Panama verdict. That will determine the direction of the country. The current wave of anti Imran sentiment using 'phateechar' as an argument is just plain old stupid, and is limited to the sad old species known as patwaris.

 

[Kavalier]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Yar iss saray ka topic say kiya talluq hay?

Nooray butt Fouji Zia ke Sp... saay paiday huway aur kabhi ISI Nay fund Kiya aur Kabhi IJI bana karr BB ko hata karr hakoomat dilai kyonkeh abb Nooray Butt ko Raw ke agent bharvay aur Paid kaloo khanzeeeri Ki himayat hasil hai aur Kalooo khanzeeeri woh Bharva hai Jo India jaa karr Pakistan ki tashkeel ko Blunder kehta hai aur Pakistan Murdaa baad kehta hai aisaay Khanzeeer nassal ke Mulk Dushman saay iss waqt Nooray Butt ke taanay banay millay huway hain aur Raw bhi kabhi jindall aur kabhi Rabway ke tawasoot saay Nooray Butt ko bachanay ki Naakaam koshish karr rahi hai aur abb to RAW kaa Kaloo khanzeeer bhi uski himayat karr raha hai

 

[Kavalier]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Do you really think that the karachi menace was without backing of the establishment? If you create certain groups and use them for your own benefits, they are bound use that for their own interests as well. it is just a little change in strategy, how come Pak Sar Zameen are all angels and others who did nt join are all bad guys?

Lol stopped reading this BS after 5 lines. For your information, Raheel Shareef did not got famous because there were fake news. He brought terrorism 70% down in the country. He brought peace to bloody streets of Karachi, and people loved him for his service. Get your facts straight before you post crap.

 

[dingdong]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Yar iss saray ka topic say kiya talluq hay?

Topic Punjab fouj hai

 

[Kavalier]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Thanks for a reasonable reply, there are too less here.... :)

I did nt praise and will never like the kind of politics PMLN/PPP (one with Zardari as its head) and other such traditional small parties. But at the same time, I expect something betrer for the alternative and not the same old style politics of bad language, cashing in on others' faults and trying to gain political margin even when it comes to some national event/interest.

On your point about RS and his team using PTI, I would say that PTI was already in touch with estab through Gen Pasha and Gen Zaheer etc who obviously acitng on an institutional policy created a pressure group which was later used by fouj during RS reign.

My view PTI are waiting for SC results. I always believe that IK was never looking at Raheel Sharif, he didn't even exist as a name when IK gained popularity.

The reason Army and govt didn't clash is because the govt didn't have the balls to intervene in Army's decision - be it Zarb-Azab, Ranger Karachi operation or the current operation. Nothing was done with the approval of the parliament or by briefing the govt. They just did what they thought was right for Pakistan. Only if every govt dept (NAB, ECP, FIA, SEC, PEMRA, OGRA and others) did the same thing, NS would be out within a year of coming into power.

In my view the current govt has failed in governance and improving the system for long run. They have survived due to low oil prices and huge amount of loans that they acquired. This money gave them prospect to announce multiple things, but unless they fix the system nothing good can come out of any department. Because they had a huge strength in the parliament, they did what they though was better for their party to survive rather than for Pakistan.

Good short term strategy, but not good for the country in long run.

The only one in loss will be us (the people of Pakistan)

 

[Kavalier]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Pakistani fouj, correct yourself. Look at the population distribution of country, when Punjab has like 65% population it is quite obvious that everywhere they will be in majority.

Now coming to your point, fouj acts as an institution. Give you an example of chiefs, Musharraf = Muhajir who gave free hand to Altaf bahi, Zia = Muhajir who created MQM under Altaf Hussain, Aslam Beg = Muhajir who pampered Nawaz shareef over BB, Hamid gul, Asad DUrrani = Pashtoon who were main roles in ISI scandels, , Kakar = Pashtoon who supported NS by sending the then president home too along with NS. Before these all, there were Ayub Khans, Yayha Khans etc who were also not Punjabi. This all bull crap is mentioned here to show that fouj acts as an institution and they want their hold on things.

If you say that NS, MQM etc are created and backed by fouj, you must also admit that PTI is and has been supported by fouj. Same is the case with Pak Sarzameen Party...

Topic Punjab fouj hai

 

[Kavalier]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Thanks for a detailed reply.

Come on, lets call a spade a spade, who does not know that PTI has been propped up by establishement as pressure group.... Look at the inclusions, look at their moves and strategies which change with a change in estab stance. Even a blind can see that whenever there is something against the estab, PAT/PTI are the first ones to pounch the opportunity and even before ISPR tweet they start backing them. I mean they should know that it is fouj who is problem, not civilians. System can be bad due to poor options in political parties (which basically goes again to the fact that fouj never allowed to develop any political environment) but this is the only system to move ahead. It will rectify itself it allowed to prosper but then who will give a damn to fouj who is the custodian of their masters' interests.

I am no fan of PMLN or the present PPP and I know their history, as you rightly pointed out is littered with indecent incidents. But this gives me no excuse to praise poor politics and immature statements of PTI.

Lol.
Personal views are in abundance these days. If you want to be fair in your assessment, then being fair means being fair. You cant act partisan, and then say that oh, it was my unbiased opinion. At least be honest about it.

Im trying to see where PTI seems frustrated. As a matter of fact, in the Panama case proceedings, PTI has done a very good job, working with the circumstantial evidence that they had. It seems like NAwaz Sharif knew that his tangible evidence wont be able to defeat PTI's circumstantial evidence, which is why he never bothered to show a single piece of tangible evidence. The frustration was when the likes of Saad Rafiqu and Talal Ch. stood there and indirectly threatened the SC to give a judgment in their favor. We are not kids.

We know PMLN's history with the institutions. The only thing I fear is that they will find a weak spot in the judiciary, and be able to blackmail their way to a judgment that exonerates them. PMLN's history is littered with such incidents. The attack on Supreme Court and call to Justice Qayum were a part of it.

PTI never needed the help of the establishment.
If the establishment wants to prop someone up, they know how to get the job done. They were able to gather a rag tag group of minion parties in the late 80s and create IJI, and make it win.
They were able to create a 'winner' out of the Chaudhry family, and make PMLQ the winner in 2002. So its surprising that the establishment hasnt been able to prop up PTI in all these years. BS

Lets wait for the Panama verdict. That will determine the direction of the country. The current wave of anti Imran sentiment using 'phateechar' as an argument is just plain old stupid, and is limited to the sad old species known as patwaris.

 

[akmal1]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Thanks for a detailed reply.

Come on, lets call a spade a spade, who does not know that PTI has been propped up by establishement as pressure group.... Look at the inclusions, look at their moves and strategies which change with a change in estab stance. Even a blind can see that whenever there is something against the estab, PAT/PTI are the first ones to pounch the opportunity and even before ISPR tweet they start backing them. I mean they should know that it is fouj who is problem, not civilians. System can be bad due to poor options in political parties (which basically goes again to the fact that fouj never allowed to develop any political environment) but this is the only system to move ahead. It will rectify itself it allowed to prosper but then who will give a damn to fouj who is the custodian of their masters' interests.

I am no fan of PMLN or the present PPP and I know their history, as you rightly pointed out is littered with indecent incidents. But this gives me no excuse to praise poor politics and immature statements of PTI.

بھائی یہ جملہ آج کل بہت چل رہا ہے کہ میں پی پی پی اور نون کے حق میں نہیں ہوں لیکن تحریک انصاف بھی غلط ہے. جناب جب آپ سٹیٹس کو کے خلاف لڑنے والی واحد پارٹی کے خلاف ہی مائکرو سکوپ لے کر بیٹھے رہیں گے تو فائدہ سٹیٹس کو کا ہی ہوگا. ظالم اگر مظلوم کو مار رہا ہے اور مظلوم صرف گالیاں دے رہا ہے تو اسکی گالیوں کو غلط کہنا بظاھر تو ٹھیک ہے لیکن اس سے ظالم کا ظلم نہیں روکتا

 

[Munawarkhan]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Thanks for a detailed reply.

Come on, lets call a spade a spade, who does not know that PTI has been propped up by establishement as pressure group.... Look at the inclusions, look at their moves and strategies which change with a change in estab stance. Even a blind can see that whenever there is something against the estab, PAT/PTI are the first ones to pounch the opportunity and even before ISPR tweet they start backing them. I mean they should know that it is fouj who is problem, not civilians. System can be bad due to poor options in political parties (which basically goes again to the fact that fouj never allowed to develop any political environment) but this is the only system to move ahead. It will rectify itself it allowed to prosper but then who will give a damn to fouj who is the custodian of their masters' interests.

I am no fan of PMLN or the present PPP and I know their history, as you rightly pointed out is littered with indecent incidents. But this gives me no excuse to praise poor politics and immature statements of PTI.

Ok, look at it from this perspective.

Army as an institution functions properly. They work on their objective and they achieve their objective. There is no concept of missing a single meeting there. They have groomed themselves in this manner that their sole objective is to serve the country ( of course there are bad apples everywhere). Just imagine for a single moment that Army was managed by the Parliament. We will not have this country.

Now look in comparison the other side; our so called democracy. Less than 1/5th of members attend the session. the head of parliament (PM) doesn't attend the core sessions. This parliament manages all the system to make the country operational. The reason of army intervention in history comes from the mere fact that our parliament doesn't work.

Coming to the other point about PTI and generals.
As an army general if I have lived all my life serving Pakistan and now I have retired. What should I do. It is in the blood to serve the country and make a difference. They will of course try to create a structure or support a structure that wants to fight against the corrupt and wrongdoers. Is it something wrong? Is this what you call establishment?

If you really believe that PTI was backed by the establishment than my dear just look at the history. You will see that establishment never fails. If your assumption is right, then it means that establishment is weak and they can't even make their party win elections or SC results or any other matter.

 

[Will_Bite]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Thanks for a detailed reply.

Come on, lets call a spade a spade, who does not know that PTI has been propped up by establishement as pressure group.... Look at the inclusions, look at their moves and strategies which change with a change in estab stance. Even a blind can see that whenever there is something against the estab, PAT/PTI are the first ones to pounch the opportunity and even before ISPR tweet they start backing them. I mean they should know that it is fouj who is problem, not civilians. System can be bad due to poor options in political parties (which basically goes again to the fact that fouj never allowed to develop any political environment) but this is the only system to move ahead. It will rectify itself it allowed to prosper but then who will give a damn to fouj who is the custodian of their masters' interests.

I am no fan of PMLN or the present PPP and I know their history, as you rightly pointed out is littered with indecent incidents. But this gives me no excuse to praise poor politics and immature statements of PTI.

The urge to forcibly create a link between PTI and establishment came about because of the following reasons.
1. Imran Khan was an MNA while Musharraf was in power.
2. Dr. TUQ has tried to piggy back IK and PTI every chance he got, and he of course has support from the agencies.
3. PMLN has a sullied history. Its roots are in establishment, and it owes 3 election victories to them. Because of that, they try hard to cast PTI in the same stone, so that they have a 'partner in crime'.

Now if you look at the facts, during the dharna, it was PMLN that called army for help..not IK. And as I said in my last post, if the establishment wanted to prop up IK, they wouldnt need so many years to do so.

I agree that the political system has to correct itself, and for that, the institutions have to start doing their job. The institutions fail, which is why the army has to step in. This is a failure acknowledged by civilians themselves. Just look at the military courts issue. Our civilian courts cant even sentence a cheapskate model like Ayan Ali, who was caught red handed with half a million. Mushtaq Raisani is caught with quarter of a billion rupees cash at home, and is known to have stolen 40 billion..and NAB lets him go after a 2 billion deal.
The problem is that the status quo parties are not interested in touching the subject of corruption, because it will hit them directly. That is what IK has been fighting against, and look at the opposition he has come across.

 

[sab_tamasha_hai]

Re: Probable Reason behind IL/PTI's recent frustration

Do you really think that the karachi menace was without backing of the establishment? If you create certain groups and use them for your own benefits, they are bound use that for their own interests as well. it is just a little change in strategy, how come Pak Sar Zameen are all angels and others who did nt join are all bad guys?

Do you really think that every criminal hitting the street of Karachi was backed by the establishment ? In your mind does changing of heads of institution means nothing ?