Pakistani cousin marriage genetic disorders in UK

[Vitamin_C]

 

[pti4pakistan]

So sad, I could not watch the video.
Ya Allah make it easy for these people. We don't deserve Your justice and instead ask for Your forgiveness.

 

[Encounter]

agar yeh na krain tou Pakistan say apnay cousin ka visa kaisay lagwain gay

 

[aliahmad297622]

Awarnace awarnace need to be in pakistan so many ways not impossible

 

[Vitamin_C]

Few months ago some Pakistani brothers were arrested in Canada, they married their own sisters to get them visa. This seems to be a problem in the society why we have so many wrong numbers.

agar yeh na krain tou Pakistan say apnay cousin ka visa kaisay lagwain gay

 

[Cobra]

Pakistan Is " Not ' The The Only Country Where People Do Strange Things For A Opportunity. Every Country Have People Who Will Go To Extreme For A Personal Gain. I Don't Know Your Motives Behind Bashing Pakistan Only!!!!!!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Should we stop raising awareness about issues in our societies that are ruining lives and is absolutely preventable because in your personal opinion that is bashing Pakistan?
Pakistani newborns in UK are 30 times more likely to have genetic disorders than other children. That is mostly preventable if you raise awareness.
If I raise awareness about Aids in Pakistan and how to avoid it, is it bashing Pakistan.
I know its good to close your eyes and be ignorant about what is going on because it helps your emotion, but we are not here to baby sit your emotions, there will be kids born in the future with severe disabilities with no fault of their own.

Pakistan Is " Not ' The The Only Country Where People Do Strange Things For A Opportunity. Every Country Have People Who Will Go To Extreme For A Personal Gain. I Don't Know Your Motives Behind Bashing Pakistan Only!!!!!!

 

[Temojin]

I have a few reasons to strongly disagree with this theory.

1- This is also a theory like "Theory of Evolution", which has allegedly been confirmed and we are sons and daughters of chimpanzees.

2- If it was such an issue, it wouldn't be allowed in Islam (That is of course if one believes in Islam and its teachings at all)

3- I have witnessed many villages here that are the lineage of just one grandfather and the whole village comprises of population as a result of cousin marriages since generations upon generations throughout centuries. A few examples are Ldhay vala Virkan, Bhattianvala (where in fact due to cousin marriages, all men and women are exceptionally well-built, tall and strong). Jaliana where my friend resides and there are three villages comprised of the descendants of just one grandfather intermarrying each other and none of them has any defects, in fact they are also very strong, agile and famous for their fighting skills. And all these villages by no means have little population but as a result of cousin marriages throughout centuries, comprise of thousands of residents.

My maternal side of the family which is baloch almost always marries within cousins and I haven't seen any disorders when it comes to them, in fact, almost all are well-built, strong, sharpest of features and fairer just like kurds (their ancestors). All are exceptionally intelligent as well. Agile to the maximum.

In fact, the issue arises when certain families carry certain diseases and ailments which then get transferred from both sides due to being cousins in a marital relationship and the children become more likely candidates for carrying and exhibiting the characteristics of the disease. If they marry within other families, the chances reduce as other genome interferes with the fabric of the former and creates another pattern.

 

[Captain Safdar]

English people have higher rate of these kind of abnormalities in kids.....they dont do cousin marriages....dont they?

 

[نادان]

میں خود اس تھیوری پر یقین نہیں رکھتی ...ورنہ یہاں امریکہ میں ایک بھی امریکی ابنارمل نہ ہوتا ....
کیا الله اپنے ہی بندوں کو آپس کزن میں شادی کی اجازت دے کر مسلمانوں کو ابنارمل پیدا کرنا چاہتا ہے ؟؟؟؟؟؟..
یہ سو سال تک ایک تھیوری پر کام کرتے ہیں پھر یو ٹرن لے لیتے ہیں ..بے شمار مثالیں موجود ہیں ..ہمارے لئے قرآن ہی اول ..قرآن ہی آخر

 

[Vitamin_C]

Mainstream Christianity prohibits first cousin marriage and its considered incest.
Ancient Egyptian pharaohs committed incest and you see genetic disorders in their mummies. I think English Royal family has the same issues due to inbreeding within the family.
Amish people in USA also do first cousin marriage in USA, they have similar results of genetic disorders as Pakistanis. Not saying that normal couples dont have kids that have genetic disorders, what I am saying is that cousin marriage leaders to a significantly higher chance of genetic disorders. Dont you think being 30 times more likely to have a genetic disorder is significant number to raise eye brows on this topic?

میں خود اس تھیوری پر یقین نہیں رکھتی ...ورنہ یہاں امریکہ میں ایک بھی امریکی ابنارمل نہ ہوتا ....
کیا الله اپنے ہی بندوں کو آپس کزن میں شادی کی اجازت دے کر مسلمانوں کو ابنارمل پیدا کرنا چاہتا ہے ؟؟؟؟؟؟..
یہ سو سال تک ایک تھیوری پر کام کرتے ہیں پھر یو ٹرن لے لیتے ہیں ..بے شمار مثالیں موجود ہیں ..ہمارے لئے قرآن ہی اول ..قرآن ہی آخر

English people have higher rate of these kind of abnormalities in kids.....they dont do cousin marriages....dont they?

 

[نادان]

Mainstream Christianity prohibits first cousin marriage and its considered incest.
Ancient Egyptian pharaohs committed incest and you see genetic disorders in their mummies. I think English Royal family has the same issues due to inbreeding within the family.
Amish people in USA also do first cousin marriage in USA, they have similar results of genetic disorders as Pakistanis. Not saying that normal couples dont have kids that have genetic disorders, what I am saying is that cousin marriage leaders to a significantly higher chance of genetic disorders. Dont you think being 30 times more likely to have a genetic disorder is significant number to raise eye brows on this topic?

آمیش کا تو مجھے نہیں پتا ..لیکن یہاں عام گوروں میں کیوں ہے ....مت کہنا شراب نوشی یا ڈرگ کی وجہ سے ..پھر تو زیادہ تر ابنارمل ہوتے ...
میرے نزدیک مسلمان کی حثییت سے الله کا فرمان زیادہ قابل قبول ہے

 

[Vitamin_C]

Dear Nadan, nowhere does the documentary say that non cousin couples cannot have children with genetic disorders, it says that Pakistani couples are 30 times more likely to have offsprings that have genetic disorders in UK and over 55% of Pakistani couples are first cousins.
Also many other things are permitted under Islam. Slavery is not haram in Islam. Do you think its a good thing to practise today? I want your opinion on it.

The same arguments were coming couple decades ago in favour of slavery from Islamic countries that it is allowed in Islam as you argue that first cousin marriage is. Eventually after diplomatic arm twisting by the West and the UN, Saudi Arabia was finally forced to officially ban slavery around 1967, eventually the rest of the middle east countries banned it in the 1970s, it is another thing that they still practise it in many MiddleEast countries under their system such as having a Kafil etc

میں خود اس تھیوری پر یقین نہیں رکھتی ...ورنہ یہاں امریکہ میں ایک بھی امریکی ابنارمل نہ ہوتا ....
کیا الله اپنے ہی بندوں کو آپس کزن میں شادی کی اجازت دے کر مسلمانوں کو ابنارمل پیدا کرنا چاہتا ہے ؟؟؟؟؟؟..
یہ سو سال تک ایک تھیوری پر کام کرتے ہیں پھر یو ٹرن لے لیتے ہیں ..بے شمار مثالیں موجود ہیں ..ہمارے لئے قرآن ہی اول ..قرآن ہی آخر

With all respect the Holy Quran is not a book of science and should not be treated as such. At best its a book about ethics, Arabic literature, society, poetry and spirituality. If there is a scientific consensus about a scientific subject such as genetic disordered, it makes the hair on my forearms stand up in shock when I see that people would give preference to their personal interpretation of their religious scriptures over scientific findings and facts. Its not only dangerous its irresponsible.

I have a few reasons to strongly disagree with this theory.
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the [FONT=arial, sans-serif]scientific-method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[/FONT]
In other words, you simply cannot disagree with a theory because it is regarded by scientific community as a fact. Facts are not a matter of personal opinion, you have to disprove them using the same scientific methods that were used to prove them in the first place.

1- This is also a theory like "Theory of Evolution", which has allegedly been confirmed and we are sons and daughters of chimpanzees.
Evolution is not a theory its a fact. A theory is a scientifically accepted method that explains a fact. It is a fact that life forms have been changing on Earth(Evolution) and Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selections explains the fact of evolution how life forms change.
Also this is one of the most common misunderstanding people have with human evolution who have less understand of the subject, that humans evolved from Chimpanzee!
We did not evolve from Chimpanzee!.... I repeat we did not evolve from Chimpanzee... Chimpanzee and Homo-Sapeins both evolved from a shared ancestor who was neither a chimp nor a human.

2- If it was such an issue, it wouldn't be allowed in Islam (That is of course if one believes in Islam and its teachings at all)
Cousin marriage is allowed in Islam, Islam does not say cousin marriages are obligatory, you can chose not to if it is harmful, same as eating beef you are allowed eat it does not mean its good for you when you reach a certain age.

3- I have witnessed many villages here that are the lineage of just one grandfather and the whole village comprises of population as a result of cousin marriages since generations upon generations throughout centuries. A few examples are Ldhay vala Virkan, Bhattianvala (where in fact due to cousin marriages, all men and women are exceptionally well-built, tall and strong). Jaliana where my friend resides and there are three villages comprised of the descendants of just one grandfather intermarrying each other and none of them has any defects, in fact they are also very strong, agile and famous for their fighting skills. And all these villages by no means have little population but as a result of cousin marriages throughout centuries, comprise of thousands of residents.
I would need some more evidence on this, even if its not a very credible source such as newspaper then please do share as I would be interested.

My maternal side of the family which is baloch almost always marries within cousins and I haven't seen any disorders when it comes to them, in fact, almost all are well-built, strong, sharpest of features and fairer just like kurds (their ancestors). All are exceptionally intelligent as well. Agile to the maximum.
Both my parents are Baloch, my father family tree traces back to Aleppo Syria during the time of Caliph Ali(R.A). Cousin marriages in my father's family is a taboo and they are strictly against it, my paternal Grandfather lived to his 90s, my paternal grandmother is now in her late 90's virtually disease free and health. My Mother family was a very wealthy and large family, they have been indulging in first cousin marriages for generations. I as an outsider can be a honest witness can observe from outside their family and say that almost each and every male has some form of genetic disorder and atleast half of the females, they will never admit it even though its clear to me, but its human nature that its hard for one to see their own flaws but easier for an outsider to see. When I am trying to de-bug my computer code it takes me hours but when I show it to a fellow programmer he finds my mistakes almost instantly, and I find his.

In fact, the issue arises when certain families carry certain diseases and ailments which then get transferred from both sides due to being cousins in a marital relationship and the children become more likely candidates for carrying and exhibiting the characteristics of the disease. If they marry within other families, the chances reduce as other genome interferes with the fabric of the former and creates another pattern.

I think I have to agree, the disorder have to be in the parents in the first place to be carried forward to the next generations, but that does not in anyway argue against the documentary as what it is saying that if one person is carrier of a problem gene, the chances of that gene being carried into both parents are higher when that gene is being circulated within the same family. It just proves the point.
Many of the things written in religious scriptures such as Holy Bible, Holy Quran, Old Testament are metaphorical and not taken literally, for example the story of Adam and Eve, the great flood of Noah, the story of Lut and his city of Sodom, the exodus of the jews from Egypt etc... Most educated Jews, Muslims, Christians believe it to be such and even the vatican has changed its official stance evolution and now accepts it as fact among many other scientific findings that they did not previously accept as it conflicted with their interpretations of holy scriptures.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Sister, again, the documentary does not say non-cousin couples cannot have offsprings with genetic disorders. All it says it that cousin couple offsprings are significantly more likely to have genetic disorders than non cousin couples. In the case if Pakistanis in UK, they are 30 times more likely to have genetic disorder than non Pakistani newborns.

آمیش کا تو مجھے نہیں پتا ..لیکن یہاں عام گوروں میں کیوں ہے ....مت کہنا شراب نوشی یا ڈرگ کی وجہ سے ..پھر تو زیادہ تر ابنارمل ہوتے ...
میرے نزدیک مسلمان کی حثییت سے الله کا فرمان زیادہ قابل قبول ہے

 

[Vitamin_C]

Sister, here are some short newspaper on Amish genetic disorders for your knowledge. Also Amish are very interesting people I would recommend you to discuss them with your friends in USA. It is believed that Amish come from Germany few hundred years ago and all the Amish today are totally descended from a group of around 100 people who migrated from Germany.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/genetic-disorders-hit-amish-hard/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/amish-gene-mutation-mental-retardation-developmental-delay-445578

آمیش کا تو مجھے نہیں پتا ..لیکن یہاں عام گوروں میں کیوں ہے ....مت کہنا شراب نوشی یا ڈرگ کی وجہ سے ..پھر تو زیادہ تر ابنارمل ہوتے ...
میرے نزدیک مسلمان کی حثییت سے الله کا فرمان زیادہ قابل قبول ہے

 

[نادان]

Sister, again, the documentary does not say non-cousin couples cannot have offsprings with genetic disorders. All it says it that cousin couple offsprings are significantly more likely to have genetic disorders than non cousin couples. In the case if Pakistanis in UK, they are 30 times more likely to have genetic disorder than non Pakistani newborns.

ٹھیک ہے سائنسی تحقیقات کی ایک جگہ ہے ...لیکن ضروری نہیں سب ہی ٹھیک ہو ..میں الله کے فرمان کے آگے ان کو ذرا کم نمبر دیتی ہوں ..ہمارے ہاں بچے کو پیدا ہوتے ہی شہد کی گٹھی دی جاتی ہے ،،یہاں بوتل پر لکھا ہوتا ہے کہ ننھے بچوں کو نہ دیں ..جب کہ شہد کی افادیت مسلم ہے ...سو سال تک کہتے رہے انڈے نہ کھاؤ ..کولیسٹرول بڑھ جائے گا ..اب کہتے ہیں ایک تو کھالو ..ریڈ میٹ کے خلاف بولتے رہے ..اب کہتے ہیں اس میں بھی آپ کے فائدے کی چیز ہے ...بات ساری اعتدال کی ہے ..
شادی کی اجازت الله نے دی ہے تو دی ہے

:)

 

[Temojin]

See my friend, I can't present you with evidence until you decide to visit and I take you to those villages. If you have relatives here, they must know bhattianwala and jaliana people are famous for their strong blokes and "dushmani". There was once this video about bhattianwala as well about that masjid where every fiqh offers namaz at once.

About your family, as you have not seen many cousin marriages there, I think I have more evidence at this side as I have seen it a lot. Cousin marriage is never discouraged among Balochs, your clans might carry some different family traditions. I have relatives from Quetta till Taunsa Sharif and I am just quoting what I have experienced, your is different as told by you. Ages as you have mentioned are also longer than average among them.

About cousin marriage in Islam, it has not been discouraged and we know mohkamaat in Islam do carry a medical side to them as well. For example, about liquor that it has more harm than benefits etc. or not to eat pork (which isn't liked at all among fitness professionals throughout the world).

We certainly don't share ancestors with chimps, Quran has mohkamat about Adam A.S which are not metaphorical at all. And throughout the known history of man, no considerable evolutionary changes have been documented, black slaves could at the least grow another pair of hands or start growing them. Apart from difference in muscular balance which one can develop by staying at a certain terrain for some amount of time, no change has ever been documented. Blacks have the same physical characteristics since the beginning and they haven't got more athletic or stronger than before. The discussion can go on but according to my humble opinion and what I have witnessed throughout my life, I don't see any particular effects with cousin marriage, especially in a society like ours which has a whole society built upon it.

Thank you for presenting the videos. It has a few different aspects but I think the discussion might go wayward from now onward.

 

[Night_Hawk]

ٹھیک ہے سائنسی تحقیقات کی ایک جگہ ہے
...لیکن ضروری نہیں سب ہی ٹھیک ہو
..میں الله کے فرمان کے آگے ان کو ذرا کم نمبر دیتی ہوں ..ہمارے ہاں بچے کو پیدا ہوتے ہی شہد کی گٹھی دی جاتی ہے ،،یہاں بوتل پر لکھا ہوتا ہے کہ ننھے بچوں کو نہ دیں ..جب کہ شہد کی افادیت مسلم ہے
...سو سال تک کہتے رہے انڈے نہ کھاؤ ..کولیسٹرول بڑھ جائے گا ..اب کہتے ہیں ایک تو کھالو ..ریڈ میٹ کے خلاف بولتے رہے ..اب کہتے ہیں اس میں بھی آپ کے فائدے کی چیز ہے ...بات ساری اعتدال کی ہے ..
شادی کی اجازت الله نے دی ہے تو دی ہے

:)

Jazak Allah Khair for your comments.

 

[Night_Hawk]

I was searching if cousin marriages are prohibited in Christianity.
Scripture does not prohibit marriage between first-cousins. Yet, there are several things to consider. First, it would be a serious error to say more than what scripture has said or to add to scripture. Second, we are assuming that when you married in the United States, you did not violate any of the laws in the state in which you were married. If you are not sure, we would encourage you to check with a lawyer in that state. Here is a general summary of United States law regarding marriage from Law Connect!™, but it is important to remember that the laws vary from one state to another.

 

[Night_Hawk]

Marriage between first cousins Renowned UK doctors certify this practice to be medically perfect​ Note: These articles are not intended to either encourage or discourage marriage between close relatives. They are intended to just dispel many myths spread by "others" with regard to the subject matter. ​ Marriage among Relatives: Answer from Islamic scholar (Mufti)​ Marriage is not allowed to all relatives: it is banned to whom?​ (A) Dr. Imteyaz Ahmad Khan​ These medical reports are nonsense. You are quite right in saying that "I also believe that whatever our religion preaches cannot be unhealthy". Absolutely true. I am so pleased to read this sentence from you . This must be the belief (Eiman) of every Muslim. If it was harmful enough to cause such serious complication as congenital deformities, Allah would not have permitted it and made it "Halal" unreservedly. You know very well that when Allah has prohibited "Sharab" ( Khamr) in Quran, He says that there are benefits in it and harm (evil) in it and its evils and harm are greater than its benefit , so don't go near it. I think to be congenitally deformed is far far more serious than being intoxicated , if it were to be the result of marriage between close relatives, Allah would not have permitted it. ​

Secondly Allah says to Muslims in Quran that for you the best example is in the "Uswa of Rasoolallah SAS " (life and deeds of Prophet SAS). And Prophet SAS got his most beloved daughter Fatima RA (the head of ladies of Jannah) married to his own first cousin Hazrat Ali (R.A.). And Rasoolallah SAS himself married his own first cousin Zainab (RA) after her divorce from Hazrat Zaid. In fact Allah Himself performed Prophet's Nikah to Hazrat Zainab in the heaven. Do we think that Allah Who is the ultimate source of all the knowledge in the universe would go along a potentially and inherently harmful act for His most beloved prophet and do his Nikah to a close relative? Certainly not.

That was the religious and also most important consideration which outweighs and supersedes any worldly knowledge that turn out to be faulty, times and again, and get ultimately discarded at later stages.

Now let us look examine some facts and figures. The highest number of congenital deformity and very serious ones (involving brain) is found in Western people where there e is no marriage between cousins and close relatives. I have attended thousands of deliveries in operation theatre in UK and first question the mother asks " Is he/ she OK and normal"? I used to be surprised by this question , then I was told that there are frequent incidences of abnormal births in Caucasians. The incidence is far fewer amongst Muslims, married to close relatives or outside. Hindus don't get married to relatives and they have fair number of children born with congenital abnormalities.

I am married to first cousin. Alhamdolillah , I have 4 children and none of them have any physical , mental or intellectual disability, Alhamdolillah. There are quite a few friends of mine who are married to first cousins and their children have ended up in Oxford and Cambridge and are in top positions and have no abnormality. On the other hand I also know couple of other Muslim friends who were married totally outside ( not even a distant genetic link) and unfortunately they had child without any brain. The genetic medical theory is not backed up by facts on the ground.

(B) Dr. Khalid Khan, one of the youngest doctors to become a consultant in UK, writes

I will confine myself purely to the scientific side of the issue in general terms. Clearly the appropriateness of a given rishta is something only you and Aunty are in a position to judge. Furthermore, as a basic premise that which is permitted and done by our beloved Nabi (saw) cannot and is not harmful or undesirable.

1. 75% of the genes between first cousins are unique to them and not shared between then.
2. Most individuals carry one very serious genetic mutation in their bodies and thus nearly all couples related or unrelated will have abnormal genes in them but by the amazing process Allah has ordained for babies, these rarely manifest themselves.
3. The vast majority of serious abnormalities in pregnancies do not progress very far. Approximately 75% conceptions never go beyond the first 6-8 weeks of pregnancy. These usually have very serious some developmental problem that Allah does not allow to proceed. Remember that the birth of a normal baby is a scientifically and spiritually amazing process.
4. Most of the genetic or congenital abnormalities that do arise are from new mutations in eggs/sperm/embryo or development problems in utero e.g. Downs syndrome, heart defects etc they have no correlation with consanguity (close relationship between parents)
5. Many classically inherited disorders e.g. cystic fibrosis (the most common) invariably happen with unrelated parents as the underlying disorder is carried frequently (1:20) in everyone.
6. There are certain disorders such as haemophilia or thallassaemia that do run in families and where two individuals are known to carry this disorder (related or unrelated) then an increased risk of this disorder in the child exists here counseling is important. Even here having further children is not prohibited in the modern medical world. In the Mediterranean where this is common quite commonly 2 unrelated individuals will carry the gene it does not stop marriage etc.
7. Historically in the Royal Families of Europe over the last few centuries, marriage was invariably between 1st cousins to build bridges and maintain/propagate dynasties. Other than haemophilia in the Russian Royal family, there are little or no record of disorders arising in the many princes and princesses born.

I have summarized a few salient points that I hope you find helpful in your understanding and decision making. Most of the people who raise concerns over consanguity have little understanding of gentics and the risks and causes of congenital (majority not inherited), hereditary and developmental disorders which leads to a lot of confusion and misunderstanding as well as creating undue anxiety. ​