Azaad Alfaaz
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Muslims, Free Speech & The Right To Offend- Debate - Channel 4 Dispatches TV Program
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Transcript of the above Video:
0:04
last week
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tony blair called for a national debate on the place of muslim culture
0:10
in british society
0:13
amid the controversies ranging from the wearing of availed to protests against
0:16
comments made by the pope
0:19
tonight on dispatches
0:20
we explored arguments that underlies much of the debate
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the apparent conflict between the traditional british values of free
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speech
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over the bounds of this country's muslim population tonight we ask
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is free speech under threat in britain
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here
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frog uh...
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the evidence is that the clash between freedom of speech and muslim
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sensibilities
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is becoming a major fault line
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we conducted our own survey for tonight's program to test the opinion of
0:56
the population as a whole using the polling company populous
1:01
we asked if they agree to that
1:03
people in britain are afraid of speaking out on issues involving muslims
1:07
for fear of causing offence
1:09
seventy three percent said they agreed
1:12
only eighteen percent disagreed
1:15
but a previous channel four polled by j_f_k_ aneta p found very different
1:20
opinions and britain's muslim community
1:23
passed with a very supportive free speech
1:25
even if the defense religious groups thirty thirty one percent said yes
1:30
sixty-two percent exactly double sedna
1:34
now in recent months works of art films newspapers and public figures of old
1:37
come under fire
1:39
in holland a provocative film about women in islam led to the murder two
1:43
years ago of its director
1:45
and earlier this year violent protest erupted over the publication of a series
1:49
of cartoons in denmark which satirize the prophet muhammad
1:54
danish embassies in syria and lebanon was set on fire
1:57
anima deaths in nigeria libya pakistan and afghanistan
2:02
at least a hundred and thirty nine people died in the protest worldwide
2:06
in london and across britain angry demonstrators took to the streets
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then last month
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a speech by the pump sparked protest again
2:16
pope benedict the sixteen th quoted lines from a medieval emperor who had
2:20
said that the prophet mohammed as the source of things only evil and inhuman
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this again lead to mass protests in many countries
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i was linked to the murder of a nun in somalia
2:32
the pope's representative swiftly apologized
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it was certainly not to be a patron of the holy father of two offended since he
2:39
needed to use of a muslim state for
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tonight dispatchers will explore these issues with the help of two people with
2:45
opposing views on freedom of speech
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they'll be joined by some of the key people involved in some of the most
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significant flashpoints on this issue
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first is kennan mallik
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and intellectual and writer on theories of human nature
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and the meaning of race
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is also a passionate supporter of unfettered free speech driven uh... y
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freedom of speech
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is the bedrock often open democratic society
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and it must include the right to defend
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many people suggest that because we lived in a plural society
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so we need greater limits on free speech
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the opposite is true
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hit delete this society such as hours
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is is that inevitable and important that people offender sensibilities of others
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inevitable
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because what different beliefs on deeply-held
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clashes that on avoidable
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and we should deal with this clashes
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in the open rather than suppress them
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important
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because any kind of social progress means offending some deeply-held
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sensibilities
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it liberty means anything george orwell once said it meets the right to tell
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people what they do not want to hear
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free speech
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is good for minorities
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from muslims unfit society as a whole
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that's why we should defend it
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thank you can imagine
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party
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is the law behind the steven laurenson zahid mubarek
4:27
campaigns and often defends individual suspected or accused of terrorism
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to the right to freedom of speech include the right to a friend of hers
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unafraid to say
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this debate is not
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despite what anyone else might say tonight
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about some abstract nation were free speech
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but simply and unadulterated unambiguous
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massive attack on a minority in the west
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it's under tight
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lol
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the media
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and even from names in the streets
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one of the bandits would receive a low
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under which this attack takes place
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is a completely unrestrained right to free speech
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we will see you tonight i'm sure
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with a free speech
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of the type practiced by the western media
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really leaps
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the marginalization
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the crew was a sham
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and the demonization
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one minority section
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of our population
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thank you very much
5:39
we would start by asking where the angry protests in the muslim community do pose
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a serious threats to freedom of speech
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our first guest has been at the sharp end of this debate
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here's alleged abu louboutin
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the whole controversy of the danish cartoons would not exist without double
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la bottom
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he is one of the two day mission moms who kick started the process
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against the derogatory cartoons of the prophet mohammed
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by bringing them to the attention of the global muslim community
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their income your questions for abu lavin
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uh...
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this use paypal which is just a handful of gration to denmark
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no doubt that you don't spose phone is the because the newspaper and the market
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was leading the continued immigration
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and the anti islamic abroad and uh... there can be in for almost atv's
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continuous years with the right to say the publication of these cultures lead
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directly to a tax on muslims in denmark
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yes no doubt it was in my opinion the climax or for the whole depression
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and most of the clinton denmark is it a powerful community doesn't have a good
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big voiced his palette equal voice to the newspaper
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no will be reality is that
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we have no access to media whatsoever
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synthase publication wasn't meant to open up to debate
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or was it to attack muslims
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which was a matter of provocation
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trying to in some even the editor in chief he wrote in his editorial got most
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limbs in this country should be trained to upset the humiliation
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decided imran khan afraid that uh...
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concludes
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y'all time there
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kennan mallik
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your questions from abu
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the call to controversy is not really religious matter
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but about people like you exploiting the issue
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for your own
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political ends
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as you know evening denmark
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door protest by muslims against your campaign muslims who want to live in a
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secular society and think the religion is a private issue between them and talk
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why should we ignore such most invoices and only listen to yours
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because it we are a part of this democracy we are very i have the right
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to be respected in this community
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uh... we we have been locked all the time we have been disparate asking for
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the arnold and debate we have been marginalized et cetera et cetera into
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asking to respect
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yes your asking could be the if you are saying that
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newspapers
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in denmark in this country the rest of us can only tape
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what you think is acceptable
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being official
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to its origin and context we talk all the time to make conferences and debates
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about
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islam or for beer
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work most limbs have been bed profile and islamic behavior in the most
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negative where you all the time if you are in our position or feel it your
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feelings and attitude would be completely different
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have a lot on thank you very much indeed
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time next guest is carolyn for dressed she is a french intellectual with the
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track record
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for courting controversy
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in the course of free speech once the danish cartoons protest it started she
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took part in the decision to republish the cartoons
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in a french magazine
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kind of medical questions to carolyn fareast
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what was important he republish occult eating problems
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festival in it was important info
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that could be convenient because as journalists
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i cannot imagine to judge
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the senate's alphabetic ideas without showing what is the center of the panic
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and secondly it was important because my newspaper a is a very
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auctiva systems people is also very sick and at least one
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we made all the time captains about the book
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and we cannot imagine and yes you know to refuse to do these two sentences but
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not
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mohammed even if it's the perfect at this time
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i must say at this point steps reading we are making it clear
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distinction between
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the criticize of the region president immediately g andy criticize of
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misleads as individual this is why i'm seeking beds for example of the world
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legislative phobia
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it's really cool world was making a confusion between do see clearest
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approach
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and the rest is the pros and which was the cigarette smoke
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never with the label is on the photo yet
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is often used
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not to highlight racism
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but to silence critics of islam
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definitely
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ann and i think it is in the center of the debate here because
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we'll link you to leave in there
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part of the world where
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we have the right
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exam says the spirit of criticism about tradition
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many many many campaigns
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i'm not in the same case
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and many many people are pending
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from the muslim world
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to leave in europe because of these spirits a few duty
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we are you need international context would have been better here is not
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between civilization i do not believe in that is not between west any slam
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destroyed india is between fundamentalists and monday honest
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if we choose
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to intimate alta costume adem used even in europe
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not criticize religion
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then going to lose and it will be our forms
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critics suggest that they did not for free speech is really an attack on
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minorities to accept that
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if someone is saying alrighty that for example
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misleads off form
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that violent people
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just because they are misled us
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yes i would say it is addressed is the props
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that this is very different
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x x saying for example that's islam can out some traditional well
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aunty feminist sexist on the phone x
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and this amazed just thinking there is and so we have to be very clear there
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of course stresses the pros is not acceptable
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that turned a defense groups
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are trying to do with a is jennifer meow
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to avoid a blessing not stresses
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and i'm sampled the rights took off and i'm supporting the right
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to continue to make the skinny because this is an d n
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the only way to build communities
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in front of event for that that is
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panoramic thank you very much to drill questions their account your opportunity
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to cross-examine fluoresce com
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do you accept that everybody's entitled committee
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do you believe that every house liberty
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no i think there's many missions countries where
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women for example i have no an awfully good to see the western minority commute
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is not have the same liberty as a majority
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white communities icing the minorities in the west are can be discriminated
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tonight fighting against this this relation they don't have the same
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liberties that you say that everybody should have gives there is a difference
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between the trees and discrimination
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for example in some instances countries even on the new live in
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people have no december idea talking about january which and i'll be
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finishing line in the west will unit was formed
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at least we have on the same rights that's
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daily on the ground there is this commission well against these equity on
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the facts
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some people have more power than on the people q except that
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yes yes
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is the most of the mass media strobe lights find one or two
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same murdoch
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who really put some free speech and aged
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is dot was intrigued to suppress barriers who control the media bacon flu
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sick whichever way they could
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as journalists i cannot accept dot blot
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conspiracy explanation was that you see any 'cause yet
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i have some cramped that we try to extend the debt
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diminishing the captains
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was to be pops of the bush administration
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american
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conspiracy against the mistreatment
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america and george bush was strongly against the dedication of the captain's
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because they are not from my point of view
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and that's a chemist
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i am a feminist and left for some
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and i'd be pleased of capsules my feminism and bicycle arisen
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without nobody had done so on the question that because i know i'm going
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to run out of time
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possibly could free speech
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would you say it was wrong if somebody complains about say
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an article which said that nazis have the right to say the jews sacrificed
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christian children
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toward a pita follows for the rights in the sex with children has been sent
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hearing it you're trying to do exactly what i know he's already pesky and
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asking division between your consumption a freedom of speech and mine local
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agents
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wednesday two divisions is
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from the for example in my newspaper when we met her
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and jobs
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or you know about colonization slavery all discrimination you not like sizing
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for less please let me go we are existing free speech about
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all religions idea made ones you sent me do you think that would you will see
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some of them isn't mailing list but you know publish
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those things in the newspaper i meant to give you an example of what you call the
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guitars all the time and they cut down on the show all the time published
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thousand article not known as the cup let me finished we asks no not know
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museums on the internet users is here so let me put it on making confusion
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between
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again you making expansion going to make a confusion library safety i think
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you're trying to continue to use twenty i think if i think apprentices for your
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last answer carolinians for example enact tough opponent of the cat in the
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house and that's the u_n_ personnel was
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and very heavy
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haiti about missus because the p_b_s_ the captain's against
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and mohammed that they want to eat about jewish this same tetanus we did the
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muhammad with the bulb detectable we've at the symbol of israel
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on its two denounce what's is going on with the palestinian and we are
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completely completely reedy to finish deductions onto simi teach that's that
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i've read press establishing to denounce it's we support freedom of speech we
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don't see but eight karen
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however in order to judge the degree of offense we should show the cartoons
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themselves
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onto a there freely available on the internet i've brought copies they
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depicts the prophet mohammed in range of guises
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from a character in a police edited parade
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to one of a terrorist with a bomb structures have
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uh... i want to ask the advocates should we show the cartoons
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efficient
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we are having a debate about free speech
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when we ask in the audience on the viewers to make up their minds seems
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reasonable that bull to descend them with the evidence the call teens and let
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them decide right they've grown up enough
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to have a vote
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they've grown up enough
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to look at the cartoons
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the rest
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on the decision the cultures that simply exercise john gingrich used his
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television
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his offending for the sake of offense
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showing the cultures because you have the power to show them is the same is
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embarrassing distant on big brother
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it's simply reduces the dignity of all the fuss right he does nothing to japan
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falls the debate that we're having today
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petrenko well now that's what
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we turn draw studio audience which we've tried to make his representative a cross
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section of british society as possible
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you've heard the arguments
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i'd like you please to vote on whether we should show these cartoons
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in this program
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should the danish cartoons be shown
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third one for yes
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if you think we should not show the lindbergh to format
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one for yes to find out
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vote now please
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after the break when film director tivo engulfed depicted seven naked women
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with correct texts
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he paid with his life
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we're joined by the film's producer
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and of course we shall have the results
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of all that
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parent
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welcome back to the dispatches debate we're discussing muslims and free speech
18:32
down before the break
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we are still rodeos to vote on whether we should showed the danish cartoons the
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down through the prophet mohammed in provoked worldwide protest
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here are the results
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and they are an overwhelming yes sixty nine percent yes thirty one percent no
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so
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i have in this invalid a statement from channel four on whether we can show the
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cartoons all
19:01
travel full previously broadcast images which included the cartoons
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as part of our news reporting of the controversy
19:09
earlier in the year
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we are aware that the cartoons are designed to be delivered to provocative
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that have caused significant offense to muslims
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they should therefore be shown on television
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only if there is an overriding editorial justification
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we do not believe there is such justification for their use
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in the debate
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i want to bring us onto another case another very important question
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does the concept of freedom of speech include the rights to be offensive is
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that ever justification for deliberately provoking
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a reaction
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this is what the makers of the dutch television film submission set out to do
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the film is about the alleged subjugation of women in islam
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and uses highly controversial images of this is from the koran inscribed on a
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woman's body
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images which we are not showing
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films director tab and golf
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was murdered
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and mutilated by outrage muslim man after was broadcast
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unloads condemning the film was pinned to his chest
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our next guest is high stand out west lockton who was the producer of this
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film a friend and colleague of terror vendor off
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generality
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your questions types
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what do you think would happen if we have to censor every comments
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ad-free image
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but somebody found offensive
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we just at the new show you didn't show the crucial seems to know
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from submission
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to do the job
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worst thing that can happen is self censorship
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that's exactly what just happened
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room and feel
20:52
on what you think the impact will be on the democratic process
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brooks beginning of the end of democracy
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anna for your kind of freedom
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many people have suggested that submission
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is a racist film
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in fact it was written by
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a muslim woman
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who relates
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and her experiences
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do you think it's racist for a muslim woman to say
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these are the lessons are trough from my experiences as a woman
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living in islamic societies are not at all mister personal thing
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shopping revolutionary about it
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why do you think that people
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think of it as racist
21:30
in her case
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too too long
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and sees a heretic she's an inferno on that's probably the worst termination
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form
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democratic also directs
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and hugs
21:42
morbid of terrifying gulf
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made other filmmakers and writers think twice about
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tent acting the question of islam or other controversial issues
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absolutely
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i haven't heard
21:55
anything uh... an endorsement
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rightly so
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it's very sensible for the people not
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to try and save the things that they are set
22:06
arianna geology
22:10
thank you very much heat kevin mallika imran khan it's not your questions to
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house
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surrender
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let's lock 'em believe in democracy yes
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jews in the debate
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about the position of women is and faults by featuring
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nuns in point graphic films
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then it'll be better to go up cores are so it would be
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please ask question do you think the debate about the position of women in
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society is
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advanced by such a thing
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how that could be because it could be the away to want to uh... and also be
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buried and force it and ah...
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return on that
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yeah if we don't debate
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see you did it involves a rights of women is that right
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obviously but i've been in making a film producer
22:58
is that right between the bosnian
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the before both for another see obviously a vocal was exactly to do that
23:05
dot wilson at school since they do you believe in
23:07
the freedom of speech four
23:10
anti women violent not perfect
23:12
i believe in freedom of speech for everybody within the boundaries of law
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but time
23:21
after classes g believe in freedom speech for and two women
23:25
pornography
23:27
exam within the boundaries of the more sadat goes that's fine with it
23:31
this if it's a good within the boundaries of the law
23:33
so for example
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did you consider would you do you think
23:37
the reaction of muslim women standing up for their rights investor cited you
23:40
gauge their reaction to that and holds their ability
23:44
participates in the democratic process in holland
23:48
there was a it was a debate for instance with arianna c_r_t_ uh... and which
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islamic women
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uh...
23:53
where half of them you could say returns and hardware
23:57
majority are you bitter nobles from the american roots when women uh...
24:02
saying no to the film
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basically but there was a big knows listing all about what did it move
24:08
to give the rights to women in holland absolutely and give rights when homes
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welcome to put it on the map
24:15
as we progress and to give whites wanted involves a debate
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did it increase democratic process
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absolutely
24:21
before he was rising
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everything that they've just been to dome image and uh...
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and hans is the the democratic pros
24:34
door allotted time thank you very much
24:37
thank you very much indeed
24:38
uh... guys
24:39
uh... by the west lapd
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take different views on whether or not freedom of speech implies a right to
24:50
offend
24:51
but is also a right to be protected from offense
24:55
and defects including islam
24:57
have a right to special protection
25:00
our next guest
25:01
is abraham okra
25:02
here's the chair of the moms and lost for the muslim council britain
25:07
he has spoken out for the muslim community on many of these recent
25:10
controversies
25:12
their income your questions to at the moment
25:16
when her insults about islam and when jack stroll
25:20
tony blair demand
25:22
false that women remove the fans country what effect
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doesn't achchi hai
25:28
uh... on the streets in was in communities
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it's very uh... unfortunate that uh...
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does very sections of our communities
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that have been labeled as
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the voice this community
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uh... the
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bottom off the
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ladder
25:44
sections of our communities
25:46
uh... that silent section of our committees those women
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have been
25:50
attacked and have been set upon
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uh... by somebody who wishes to
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uh... promote staircase
25:57
well this has led to is actually at for the marginalize issue of this very small
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number of uh... women who we were hoping to bring into
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if you like mainstream life
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uh... it has added to the demonization
26:09
off the muslim communities
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there has been and increase on attacks on veiled women something that we never
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had before
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in a big way as such as these
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uh... and these women have been attacked specifically because no waiting avail
26:22
when you have these headlines
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that we see in the press regularly
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wise uh... how does the media portrayed
26:30
mostly into these headphones houses affected
26:33
there is a drip drip uh...
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programs or efforts in
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trying to create a picture as if muslims uh... misfits there's more space for
26:43
muslims in a democratic
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pluralist society
26:46
we want to make space for ourselves and we expect the british public to
26:49
accommodate us as we are as long as we are biding by the rules of the land we
26:54
do not wish to change anybody's way of life we do not wish to plan impose
26:57
always of always apply for anybody
26:59
all you want is to live in the state
27:01
with one another
27:03
uh... when you leave newspaper headlines a c muslim cabbies refuses to candy a
27:08
guy bill on
27:10
why does the headline have to be muslim can't be widely not have been london
27:13
cabbie
27:14
i know them and have become one
27:22
your questions for phil gramm laga
27:24
he considered important to you consider the rights of minorities
27:29
the real price of the kind of censorship you talking about
27:33
will be paid by the most vulnerable groups including the most vulnerable
27:36
groups
27:37
within muslim societies
27:39
i don't believe that because if you look at society as a home
27:42
in infect people in new york business and your trade is the is always the case
27:46
of self-censorship
27:47
they are things that
27:49
uh... you regulate yourself you make sure that are you making a an editorial
27:52
judgment or a judgment as to have a full have done and i applaud applaud you for
27:56
the decision of not showing the cartoons
27:59
uh... we have other laws in our country that prevent you from saying exactly
28:03
what you want to say for example we have uh... libel laws
28:06
we have rescission legislation
28:08
we have lost commandos
28:10
uh... we have so many other laws that make sense to ship was there
28:13
prevent you from st
28:15
exactly what you said that does not mean that minority groups will suffer any
28:18
worse than majority groups is not about minority and majority but my point is
28:23
the such censorship
28:25
mostly effect
28:27
book most vulnerable that were police access to power which includes uh...
28:32
winning lesbians and gays willingness in communities which is why women's
28:36
organizations lesbian gay organizations within the sentiments are opposed to the
28:40
bombing of offensive states if we reflect on what missus troy has done
28:44
that's exactly what he has done he has
28:47
target of a small group of out british community
28:50
and his marginalize them by refusing them the very right
28:54
freedom to choose that we'd today are debating here
29:01
the it's made out to us
29:03
and anybody else has the right to say there were all
29:06
to wear and it is wrong to help the bail in dot flushing
29:09
do not see markets friends say for islam the phobic about saying that nobody has
29:14
said that missus tro does not have a right to say i don't like this and i
29:18
don't feel uncomfortable on that
29:20
the amenities on one count of about
29:22
which i would wish to express but for the greater good
29:26
to enhance the cohesion and the respect and holly that we or desire for a
29:31
comedian i'd choose to sacrifice might
29:35
uh... right to exercise what i'd be what i believe is my freedom to say and i
29:39
don't think so i don't behave in a selfish way
29:42
uh... but i are your brother at the end the greater good
29:45
and swallow my pride or swallow my edge to say what i believe in say to enhance
29:50
the case for confusion in our communities together
29:59
thank you very much indeed
30:09
a man who has led u_k_ protests against the pope's remarks about my habit last
30:13
month
30:14
but first
30:14
let's take a break
30:16
anna
30:17
welcome back to the dispatches debate where exploring tensions between muslims
30:21
and free speech
30:23
in a speech last month the pope quoted from a medieval theologian using these
30:27
provocative words
30:29
shammi just what muhammad brought but was new and there you'll find things
30:34
only evil and inhuman
30:36
such as his commands to spread by the sword
30:39
the faith he preached
30:41
well the results was another round of furious protests in many countries
30:45
including britain
30:46
our next guest is touch it was tough he is a london-based representative
30:51
of the islamic group has put tarea
30:53
which loudly condemned the pope for what he said
30:56
whose material is a controversial group within the muslim community and the
31:00
government is threatened in the past about it
31:02
m income
31:03
your questions
31:05
is agreeing to sue us for like a thing called people here that the
31:09
hope is a very influential individual
31:12
absolutely the world statesman whose every word calories significance
31:16
now in terms of his comments
31:19
i have no problem with debates would dialogue
31:21
with individual people
31:23
but why did you have to choose
31:25
and hide behind
31:27
the words of a fortune century improve described this man as well just
31:30
interviewed by john snow in a provocative meant to say and i
31:33
discovered nothing ball
31:34
evil an inhuman things so falsely that was the insult it was such a furor and i
31:39
think rightly so in my opinion and lead to a lot of a peaceful demonstration
31:42
across the world
31:43
but it came in the context this is a world where bush is talking about a
31:48
stumble fascist blair
31:50
is talking about
31:51
prospects of a stumbling evil ideology india war until rhetoric i think that
31:56
frame came the pull
31:58
talked-about islam being evil
32:00
unsafe they're easy to understand how this incendiary comments view out
32:04
assigned this added fuel to the war on terror propaganda leavin bushe blair to
32:08
carry on with their lives those walls
32:10
killing of a million people
32:12
on the wall focuses on
32:14
just rolls comments
32:16
these ridiculous comments about without the pokemon is insulting comments rather
32:20
than the real crimes which have been committed in ogden age set have those
32:24
comments being made
32:28
companies com is being made in a different context
32:31
would have been the sense of objection muslims have no problem with all of my
32:35
old as asian globally distributed a challenger league flat
32:38
approach a little poll
32:39
you want to discuss the suspected issues islamabad as this will go chris dodd to
32:43
volunteer for the papacy which has a very bloody issued a license of of a
32:47
crusade
32:48
land
32:50
does the discussion what muslims will not accept
32:55
i want to know human beings muslim emotion except
32:58
protrude just this sort of other believes that they do anything did to
33:01
them
33:01
don to provoke
33:03
not to debate is a lot of weight aka george sister souljah statement
33:07
along with his speech the whole of which i have read
33:10
he led a one-sided analyses that somehow
33:13
chris hedges with good reason
33:14
it's not misleading violence in front of him was talking about violence in
33:19
religion in front of at least four and a going to iraq to spread by the gun he's
33:23
very believes the liberal democracy
33:25
why did you analyzed i can tell the people using violence to spread the
33:29
bodies
33:30
what the court itself
33:31
notes if you would like to put a place for them
33:36
of public global war on terror
33:38
and muslims will not accept the vilification and i think all the people
33:41
should be a wetsuit is one last question one last question because we've heard
33:44
there is no such thing as a summer phobia
33:47
they'd doesn't exist is made up of people hide behind it
33:50
you know which accused people of racism
33:53
and to stop for inspiration
33:55
in your opinion your experience
33:58
is there arises from doesn't exist
34:00
what does it mean
34:01
well let's look at the last two weeks chuck strolls collins
34:05
jewelry followed in your muslim parents children all to the where is your kids
34:08
in the threat bruce cutler muslim schools protectionism we've done that in
34:12
the back of that
34:13
mostly women been attacking george discusses this issue was arrived at all
34:16
take nothing gov dot said so what is this this is p_r_ evidence that the
34:21
incendiary comments all politicians are leading to attacks by not diverted
34:25
people from portals politicians to account about their marriage was walls
34:29
on policies which is the all of us to be onsite so definitely on the ground
34:33
evidence parts of the fact
34:35
these comments
34:36
have a huge impacting committee cohesion of relations between all of us and
34:40
regulation
34:45
tonight
34:46
no questions
34:48
coming we become too touchy-feely about everything
34:51
the pope makes
34:53
in an off-hand way quite some medieval emperor
34:56
uh... in a speech in makes no-fly islam but about the relationship between
35:00
science and religion everybody jumps on it
35:03
just make sure that people just wanting to get offended
35:08
the bulls cupboards were largely about it's not a list of all it would be ok
35:11
milestone in which a hero i and i don't know where you're going to be a hub the
35:14
i'm going to speak if you can't wait to see how to let you speak about his
35:17
relative eyes on this part of our respect
35:19
was about the relationship between religion
35:22
uh... and side so why does he said that i was twelve but i know that there was
35:26
an offhand remark unite
35:28
uh... about at v
35:30
at was that islam
35:32
and approaching and the people and pora the point i'm making is that people
35:36
awaiting to get offended but those kinds of issues really afraid that if i told
35:41
your mom of course of the other reasonable rational human being
35:44
are expected to perform the job security any of us here
35:47
does that give me the right to a sociable gratuitously of course the
35:50
religious imposing so when you do you say things they do cause offence
35:54
the pope shelves
35:56
why hide behind the words of a fourteen sent you walk this is a professor of
36:00
theology caudill rhapsody but now the pool
36:03
because it does a man i don't want things to say
36:05
in this project
36:06
more intelligent causation of muslims across europe
36:10
dot to view mister paul
36:13
it's hard to irresponsible
36:14
to calm with such quote
36:16
ashanti he'll pull people should know better
36:26
leaders islamic organizations including yourself exactly known for their
36:29
progressive views about
36:31
days
36:33
jews and so on
36:34
is the spectacle of you accuse ng the pulpit of doc would be is a bit like
36:38
donald trump accusing bill gates of having too much money asserted that the
36:42
structure
36:45
physically cut off
36:47
the reality is what
36:49
people have the right when they are offenders to say so
36:53
but you haven't got a friend
36:55
do you expect went to modify let's i would say designs but it would have put
36:59
the point is that
37:00
arctic spine also except the right to the enemy to let them know what's not to
37:04
let you know demanded the freedom to itself
37:08
does the vote which is not about the things you want to let the freedom to
37:12
seoul
37:12
inaudible identified talking to people to insult me i don't think a lot of
37:16
course i don't think people should have arrived
37:21
had
37:23
should people let's have the right to sort all this
37:25
generational result as processional resulted
37:27
american muscle anybody else
37:29
should not have to live in a society where by the news unsalted will not lead
37:33
to holiday will not only to tensions
37:35
so it's very irrational illogical a nonsensical
37:39
decides opted to go on a soldier one another tied to a server thank you very
37:42
much
37:50
dynamometer we want to give our audience a final vote on where they stand on
37:54
muslims of free speech but fast
37:56
our final best is sharma chakravarty
38:01
she's group puts it
38:05
campaigns to protect
38:06
freedom of speech
38:08
your questions
38:09
imran khan
38:12
why shouldn't we
38:14
exercise restraint on freedom of speech
38:18
in the present moment
38:20
i think it's important on if i may say sadness
38:22
very sexy television polarize the bank to make a distinction
38:27
between
38:27
yours right
38:29
you legal right to be a free society uh... of free speech not on facts it
38:33
because we don't want to open up a fee an insight into her decision
38:37
there's always something of interest some
38:39
necessary and proportionately intentions on free speech
38:43
let's separate
38:44
your legal rights the type of defense to the death actually
38:49
went back on some moral echo sensible
38:51
sensitive
38:52
polite individual human being you cheese on a given day in a given format to say
38:57
this or that that's really important you have a right and of free speech
39:03
but it's not duty
39:04
took always and to say the most offensive
39:15
and i might add
39:16
that free speech is under attack in this country
39:19
that not from newsstands all christians or or just people effect date from big
39:24
brother politicians could be a guest
39:32
right uh... he wasn't given affixed penalty notice
39:35
he and the burning what thomas st mary's friend
39:38
his friend said what did you do it that weekend and he said
39:43
you can work out what the what the missing work gloves
39:46
say yes free speech is under attack it's a bit of a shame that we're talking
39:49
about it as if it's just from listening to this mail
39:52
philibosian
39:53
what
39:56
have helped
39:58
there's no such thing as a attacks on the simpson that that business listings
40:02
this rise in his home phone
40:04
i don't aboard he was just a six but
40:07
just from your expertise your experts as an organization
40:11
working in this field
40:12
what is the status of
40:14
attacks on muslims in this country was you
40:17
they get the idea that the protective
40:19
that mister ames
40:20
in the current climate haven't been under attack
40:23
is if you pardon my french buzzcocks
40:27
dot let me say this or in one quite passionately defended free speech is all
40:32
the little bunnies freedom of expression is incredibly important so what we need
40:36
by example
40:37
we want to say it's it's it's a miss linens as a slightly we in solidarity in
40:42
friendship that the every offended by thank all teens
40:45
fight sticks and stones a break here but it is
40:48
cult scenes if we want to say that and why should we be safe offended by women
40:52
he achieves to wear a heads gulf or haiti or anything else hiroko thank you
40:57
very much
41:04
dole questions to charger about it
41:08
i agree with you to the right
41:09
to free speech does not include a_t_t_ to offend
41:13
just as the right to people's does not mean that we all have to get divorced in
41:17
the morning that's right
41:18
but the rights to free speech must include the right to give if that's just
41:23
like the right to divorce means that we can get divorced in the morning they
41:26
agree without eight absolutely as a
41:28
legal rights because we will disagree about what is the fences and and what is
41:32
that you just look at the house as an eagle rights
41:35
we cannot have peace nationalize action of personal ethical specs satish either
41:40
because their threats of violence or threats of prosecution we can't have
41:44
conversations the combo rep along together but what we need is to be
41:48
individual moral ethical beings sensible people which actually in this country
41:53
for said hundreds of years we've broadly how often and make these individual
41:57
decisions about what to say somewhere to sing it
42:01
free speech is often seen as the enemy of minorities
42:04
do you agree with that
42:06
outsole
42:07
everybody isn't cycles of the human rights but sometimes in a democracy it's
42:12
its minorities he needs to be rights protection than last
42:15
know the woods
42:19
another was a real problem is not free speech is sought but the failure to
42:23
apply it universally what we need is more free speech not less
42:28
resettling and even-handed application so as i say free expression and
42:33
conscience means
42:34
sometimes you get to where what you like as friends say what you like
42:37
but also i i have to say
42:39
that economic talking about there was
42:42
there's no such thing any democracy in our imagination or in history that has
42:47
on the fact it's free speech look at the importance of child pornography
42:50
incitement to measure uh... and some other
42:53
necessary
42:54
a proportionate restrictions anal
43:09
porter audience think i want to bring this to a final vote you've got to
43:12
consider
43:13
all the arguments you've had
43:15
to visit right sacrifice freedom of speech to avoid causing offence to
43:19
muslims
43:20
canandaigua stroll final words to the audience
43:23
within the constitution of because of hostilities we sell was protect muslims
43:28
print too much free speech
43:31
i believe that he exaggerates extends about hostility not because it doesn't
43:36
exist it certainly does but because it does make this to the extent that talks
43:40
about and the idea of islam a phobia is all too often use poseidon critics of
43:46
this law
43:47
but even if it was trade-up britain is a deeply summer for the two nations ascii
43:51
selfless
43:52
who is it that most
43:53
benefits from censorship
43:55
not powerless in the political thorough that that those that boat possessed both
43:59
the power to sense that and then necessity to do set
44:03
free speech is the friend
44:05
yelping enemy of minorities including muslims
44:08
we should defend it
44:09
the bedrock of that open died this democratic society
44:23
i wrote on your final workers
44:27
i think what we're seeing tonight
44:29
is rich
44:31
danish newspapers mccann spots one too
44:35
and not started to print
44:37
i think we've seen it a defense of the rights of pornographers not those who
44:41
support women's rights things in the media
44:44
buyers from top to bottom
44:46
owned by the rich and powerful
44:48
defending itself
44:50
under this banner a free speech
44:53
things the right of st free speech
44:55
hands will very few
44:58
all the more reason
45:00
while alarm bells should bring when one community one single community
45:05
he singled out for a systematic offense
45:08
muslims a being vilified
45:10
twice
45:12
firstly to the publication of offensive material
45:15
and second
45:16
for excise the democratic right to purchase
45:20
to paraphrase
45:21
steve biko
45:23
the south african black nationalists
45:26
not only aldayt kicking ***
45:28
and telling us how to react to being kicked
45:32
isn't that
45:33
what's really
45:42
well they're ugly advocates arguments you've heard the before we come to the
45:46
vote let's uh... hear from some of you
45:49
uh... some of you have kind of made up their minds for your update i'm
45:52
wondering whether
45:54
with changed any of them
45:56
were you on this issue
45:58
i think you can have freedom of speech but it's going to have fun and saying
46:01
this responsibility and respect
46:03
and it's okay to have a job with iran can in time
46:06
and yet haha
46:08
uh... what about you
46:10
i think that uh... too much is made and sent them the muslim
46:14
feelings
46:15
and i think that consider this as the lawrence instead
46:19
uses christine country
46:21
basically
46:22
and
46:23
senate blame it on the ues
46:26
going to be a head
46:27
victimized
46:29
there is too much time spent on the muslim problem
46:33
thank you very much uh...
46:35
uh... i don't agree with any of them
46:41
kekeke
46:43
i think fritos pieces in the details
46:46
uh... but i think
46:47
what we need right now is a dialogue between those cultures
46:51
and at the way you produce these being used
46:54
it's driving both sides of the extremes
46:56
uh... so how can you expect reasons to integrate when you're in something that
47:00
symbols
47:02
however i don't think that in legislation of the arms thank you very
47:05
much and uh... what i do
47:09
on monday insolvent
47:11
and that means a lot of people
47:13
stereogum unfettered free speech pretty much a
47:17
thank you very much
47:19
uh... that's the moment then that we want u
47:23
uh...
47:24
are muslims threatening freedom of speech
47:28
beaudoin for yes
47:30
but to folder
47:32
please vote
47:34
yeah
47:47
well the result is in our studio audience has voted
47:51
let's take a look at what their findings were all muslims threatening freedom of
47:55
speech
47:59
very interesting p extraordinarily close at a tremendous tribute to both or other
48:04
kids
48:05
fall this very interesting votes
48:07
to the question are muslims threatening freedom of speech
48:10
that result clearly seems to indicate that in a multicultural society
48:15
there is too high a price to pay for unfettered free speech freedom for the
48:19
fence is an equally important right for all to enjoy
48:23
very interesting finding it a very interesting opening salvos
48:27
for your national debate prime minister
48:29
that's it from us thank you very much for watching dispatches it's back again
48:33
on monday same time
48:41
passes self-made millionaire businessman that how much
48:45
five-year-old
48:57
the now
0:04
last week
0:05
tony blair called for a national debate on the place of muslim culture
0:10
in british society
0:13
amid the controversies ranging from the wearing of availed to protests against
0:16
comments made by the pope
0:19
tonight on dispatches
0:20
we explored arguments that underlies much of the debate
0:24
the apparent conflict between the traditional british values of free
0:27
speech
0:28
over the bounds of this country's muslim population tonight we ask
0:32
is free speech under threat in britain
0:35
here
0:40
frog uh...
0:45
the evidence is that the clash between freedom of speech and muslim
0:49
sensibilities
0:50
is becoming a major fault line
0:53
we conducted our own survey for tonight's program to test the opinion of
0:56
the population as a whole using the polling company populous
1:01
we asked if they agree to that
1:03
people in britain are afraid of speaking out on issues involving muslims
1:07
for fear of causing offence
1:09
seventy three percent said they agreed
1:12
only eighteen percent disagreed
1:15
but a previous channel four polled by j_f_k_ aneta p found very different
1:20
opinions and britain's muslim community
1:23
passed with a very supportive free speech
1:25
even if the defense religious groups thirty thirty one percent said yes
1:30
sixty-two percent exactly double sedna
1:34
now in recent months works of art films newspapers and public figures of old
1:37
come under fire
1:39
in holland a provocative film about women in islam led to the murder two
1:43
years ago of its director
1:45
and earlier this year violent protest erupted over the publication of a series
1:49
of cartoons in denmark which satirize the prophet muhammad
1:54
danish embassies in syria and lebanon was set on fire
1:57
anima deaths in nigeria libya pakistan and afghanistan
2:02
at least a hundred and thirty nine people died in the protest worldwide
2:06
in london and across britain angry demonstrators took to the streets
2:10
then last month
2:11
a speech by the pump sparked protest again
2:16
pope benedict the sixteen th quoted lines from a medieval emperor who had
2:20
said that the prophet mohammed as the source of things only evil and inhuman
2:25
this again lead to mass protests in many countries
2:29
i was linked to the murder of a nun in somalia
2:32
the pope's representative swiftly apologized
2:34
it was certainly not to be a patron of the holy father of two offended since he
2:39
needed to use of a muslim state for
2:41
tonight dispatchers will explore these issues with the help of two people with
2:45
opposing views on freedom of speech
2:48
they'll be joined by some of the key people involved in some of the most
2:51
significant flashpoints on this issue
2:55
first is kennan mallik
2:57
and intellectual and writer on theories of human nature
3:00
and the meaning of race
3:02
is also a passionate supporter of unfettered free speech driven uh... y
3:08
freedom of speech
3:10
is the bedrock often open democratic society
3:14
and it must include the right to defend
3:18
many people suggest that because we lived in a plural society
3:22
so we need greater limits on free speech
3:26
the opposite is true
3:28
hit delete this society such as hours
3:32
is is that inevitable and important that people offender sensibilities of others
3:37
inevitable
3:39
because what different beliefs on deeply-held
3:42
clashes that on avoidable
3:43
and we should deal with this clashes
3:45
in the open rather than suppress them
3:49
important
3:50
because any kind of social progress means offending some deeply-held
3:54
sensibilities
3:56
it liberty means anything george orwell once said it meets the right to tell
4:00
people what they do not want to hear
4:04
free speech
4:05
is good for minorities
4:07
from muslims unfit society as a whole
4:10
that's why we should defend it
4:12
thank you can imagine
4:22
party
4:23
is the law behind the steven laurenson zahid mubarek
4:27
campaigns and often defends individual suspected or accused of terrorism
4:33
to the right to freedom of speech include the right to a friend of hers
4:39
unafraid to say
4:41
this debate is not
4:43
despite what anyone else might say tonight
4:46
about some abstract nation were free speech
4:49
but simply and unadulterated unambiguous
4:53
massive attack on a minority in the west
4:56
it's under tight
4:57
lol
4:59
the media
5:00
and even from names in the streets
5:03
one of the bandits would receive a low
5:06
under which this attack takes place
5:09
is a completely unrestrained right to free speech
5:13
we will see you tonight i'm sure
5:16
with a free speech
5:17
of the type practiced by the western media
5:20
really leaps
5:21
the marginalization
5:23
the crew was a sham
5:25
and the demonization
5:27
one minority section
5:29
of our population
5:31
thank you very much
5:39
we would start by asking where the angry protests in the muslim community do pose
5:44
a serious threats to freedom of speech
5:47
our first guest has been at the sharp end of this debate
5:50
here's alleged abu louboutin
5:55
the whole controversy of the danish cartoons would not exist without double
5:58
la bottom
5:59
he is one of the two day mission moms who kick started the process
6:03
against the derogatory cartoons of the prophet mohammed
6:06
by bringing them to the attention of the global muslim community
6:10
their income your questions for abu lavin
6:13
uh...
6:15
this use paypal which is just a handful of gration to denmark
6:19
no doubt that you don't spose phone is the because the newspaper and the market
6:24
was leading the continued immigration
6:27
and the anti islamic abroad and uh... there can be in for almost atv's
6:32
continuous years with the right to say the publication of these cultures lead
6:36
directly to a tax on muslims in denmark
6:39
yes no doubt it was in my opinion the climax or for the whole depression
6:44
and most of the clinton denmark is it a powerful community doesn't have a good
6:47
big voiced his palette equal voice to the newspaper
6:51
no will be reality is that
6:53
we have no access to media whatsoever
6:56
synthase publication wasn't meant to open up to debate
7:00
or was it to attack muslims
7:03
which was a matter of provocation
7:05
trying to in some even the editor in chief he wrote in his editorial got most
7:12
limbs in this country should be trained to upset the humiliation
7:17
decided imran khan afraid that uh...
7:20
concludes
7:20
y'all time there
7:22
kennan mallik
7:23
your questions from abu
7:27
the call to controversy is not really religious matter
7:31
but about people like you exploiting the issue
7:33
for your own
7:34
political ends
7:36
as you know evening denmark
7:38
door protest by muslims against your campaign muslims who want to live in a
7:43
secular society and think the religion is a private issue between them and talk
7:48
why should we ignore such most invoices and only listen to yours
7:53
because it we are a part of this democracy we are very i have the right
7:57
to be respected in this community
7:59
uh... we we have been locked all the time we have been disparate asking for
8:04
the arnold and debate we have been marginalized et cetera et cetera into
8:08
asking to respect
8:09
yes your asking could be the if you are saying that
8:13
newspapers
8:14
in denmark in this country the rest of us can only tape
8:17
what you think is acceptable
8:25
being official
8:27
to its origin and context we talk all the time to make conferences and debates
8:32
about
8:32
islam or for beer
8:34
work most limbs have been bed profile and islamic behavior in the most
8:40
negative where you all the time if you are in our position or feel it your
8:44
feelings and attitude would be completely different
8:47
have a lot on thank you very much indeed
8:57
time next guest is carolyn for dressed she is a french intellectual with the
9:01
track record
9:02
for courting controversy
9:04
in the course of free speech once the danish cartoons protest it started she
9:08
took part in the decision to republish the cartoons
9:11
in a french magazine
9:14
kind of medical questions to carolyn fareast
9:18
what was important he republish occult eating problems
9:22
festival in it was important info
9:24
that could be convenient because as journalists
9:27
i cannot imagine to judge
9:29
the senate's alphabetic ideas without showing what is the center of the panic
9:34
and secondly it was important because my newspaper a is a very
9:38
auctiva systems people is also very sick and at least one
9:42
we made all the time captains about the book
9:45
and we cannot imagine and yes you know to refuse to do these two sentences but
9:50
not
9:51
mohammed even if it's the perfect at this time
9:55
i must say at this point steps reading we are making it clear
9:58
distinction between
10:00
the criticize of the region president immediately g andy criticize of
10:06
misleads as individual this is why i'm seeking beds for example of the world
10:11
legislative phobia
10:12
it's really cool world was making a confusion between do see clearest
10:16
approach
10:17
and the rest is the pros and which was the cigarette smoke
10:20
never with the label is on the photo yet
10:23
is often used
10:24
not to highlight racism
10:26
but to silence critics of islam
10:28
definitely
10:29
ann and i think it is in the center of the debate here because
10:34
we'll link you to leave in there
10:36
part of the world where
10:37
we have the right
10:40
exam says the spirit of criticism about tradition
10:44
many many many campaigns
10:46
i'm not in the same case
10:47
and many many people are pending
10:49
from the muslim world
10:51
to leave in europe because of these spirits a few duty
10:56
we are you need international context would have been better here is not
11:00
between civilization i do not believe in that is not between west any slam
11:05
destroyed india is between fundamentalists and monday honest
11:09
if we choose
11:11
to intimate alta costume adem used even in europe
11:16
not criticize religion
11:18
then going to lose and it will be our forms
11:28
critics suggest that they did not for free speech is really an attack on
11:31
minorities to accept that
11:34
if someone is saying alrighty that for example
11:38
misleads off form
11:40
that violent people
11:42
just because they are misled us
11:43
yes i would say it is addressed is the props
11:46
that this is very different
11:49
x x saying for example that's islam can out some traditional well
11:54
aunty feminist sexist on the phone x
11:57
and this amazed just thinking there is and so we have to be very clear there
12:01
of course stresses the pros is not acceptable
12:04
that turned a defense groups
12:06
are trying to do with a is jennifer meow
12:09
to avoid a blessing not stresses
12:12
and i'm sampled the rights took off and i'm supporting the right
12:16
to continue to make the skinny because this is an d n
12:19
the only way to build communities
12:21
in front of event for that that is
12:23
panoramic thank you very much to drill questions their account your opportunity
12:26
to cross-examine fluoresce com
12:29
do you accept that everybody's entitled committee
12:33
do you believe that every house liberty
12:36
no i think there's many missions countries where
12:39
women for example i have no an awfully good to see the western minority commute
12:43
is not have the same liberty as a majority
12:45
white communities icing the minorities in the west are can be discriminated
12:49
tonight fighting against this this relation they don't have the same
12:52
liberties that you say that everybody should have gives there is a difference
12:56
between the trees and discrimination
12:59
for example in some instances countries even on the new live in
13:03
people have no december idea talking about january which and i'll be
13:07
finishing line in the west will unit was formed
13:10
at least we have on the same rights that's
13:12
daily on the ground there is this commission well against these equity on
13:16
the facts
13:17
some people have more power than on the people q except that
13:21
yes yes
13:22
is the most of the mass media strobe lights find one or two
13:25
same murdoch
13:27
who really put some free speech and aged
13:29
is dot was intrigued to suppress barriers who control the media bacon flu
13:33
sick whichever way they could
13:40
as journalists i cannot accept dot blot
13:43
conspiracy explanation was that you see any 'cause yet
13:50
i have some cramped that we try to extend the debt
13:53
diminishing the captains
13:55
was to be pops of the bush administration
13:58
american
13:59
conspiracy against the mistreatment
14:02
america and george bush was strongly against the dedication of the captain's
14:07
because they are not from my point of view
14:09
and that's a chemist
14:11
i am a feminist and left for some
14:13
and i'd be pleased of capsules my feminism and bicycle arisen
14:17
without nobody had done so on the question that because i know i'm going
14:20
to run out of time
14:21
possibly could free speech
14:23
would you say it was wrong if somebody complains about say
14:27
an article which said that nazis have the right to say the jews sacrificed
14:31
christian children
14:33
toward a pita follows for the rights in the sex with children has been sent
14:38
hearing it you're trying to do exactly what i know he's already pesky and
14:42
asking division between your consumption a freedom of speech and mine local
14:46
agents
14:47
wednesday two divisions is
14:48
from the for example in my newspaper when we met her
14:52
and jobs
14:53
or you know about colonization slavery all discrimination you not like sizing
14:57
for less please let me go we are existing free speech about
15:00
all religions idea made ones you sent me do you think that would you will see
15:04
some of them isn't mailing list but you know publish
15:07
those things in the newspaper i meant to give you an example of what you call the
15:11
guitars all the time and they cut down on the show all the time published
15:14
thousand article not known as the cup let me finished we asks no not know
15:19
museums on the internet users is here so let me put it on making confusion
15:23
between
15:24
again you making expansion going to make a confusion library safety i think
15:28
you're trying to continue to use twenty i think if i think apprentices for your
15:32
last answer carolinians for example enact tough opponent of the cat in the
15:36
house and that's the u_n_ personnel was
15:39
and very heavy
15:41
haiti about missus because the p_b_s_ the captain's against
15:45
and mohammed that they want to eat about jewish this same tetanus we did the
15:49
muhammad with the bulb detectable we've at the symbol of israel
15:54
on its two denounce what's is going on with the palestinian and we are
15:59
completely completely reedy to finish deductions onto simi teach that's that
16:05
i've read press establishing to denounce it's we support freedom of speech we
16:09
don't see but eight karen
16:20
however in order to judge the degree of offense we should show the cartoons
16:25
themselves
16:28
onto a there freely available on the internet i've brought copies they
16:31
depicts the prophet mohammed in range of guises
16:34
from a character in a police edited parade
16:37
to one of a terrorist with a bomb structures have
16:40
uh... i want to ask the advocates should we show the cartoons
16:47
efficient
16:48
we are having a debate about free speech
16:51
when we ask in the audience on the viewers to make up their minds seems
16:54
reasonable that bull to descend them with the evidence the call teens and let
16:58
them decide right they've grown up enough
17:00
to have a vote
17:01
they've grown up enough
17:03
to look at the cartoons
17:04
the rest
17:11
on the decision the cultures that simply exercise john gingrich used his
17:15
television
17:16
his offending for the sake of offense
17:19
showing the cultures because you have the power to show them is the same is
17:23
embarrassing distant on big brother
17:26
it's simply reduces the dignity of all the fuss right he does nothing to japan
17:31
falls the debate that we're having today
17:34
petrenko well now that's what
17:37
we turn draw studio audience which we've tried to make his representative a cross
17:41
section of british society as possible
17:44
you've heard the arguments
17:45
i'd like you please to vote on whether we should show these cartoons
17:49
in this program
17:50
should the danish cartoons be shown
17:53
third one for yes
17:55
if you think we should not show the lindbergh to format
17:58
one for yes to find out
18:00
vote now please
18:13
after the break when film director tivo engulfed depicted seven naked women
18:18
with correct texts
18:20
he paid with his life
18:22
we're joined by the film's producer
18:24
and of course we shall have the results
18:26
of all that
18:27
parent
18:28
welcome back to the dispatches debate we're discussing muslims and free speech
18:32
down before the break
18:34
we are still rodeos to vote on whether we should showed the danish cartoons the
18:38
down through the prophet mohammed in provoked worldwide protest
18:42
here are the results
18:45
and they are an overwhelming yes sixty nine percent yes thirty one percent no
18:51
so
18:53
i have in this invalid a statement from channel four on whether we can show the
18:59
cartoons all
19:01
travel full previously broadcast images which included the cartoons
19:06
as part of our news reporting of the controversy
19:09
earlier in the year
19:10
we are aware that the cartoons are designed to be delivered to provocative
19:14
that have caused significant offense to muslims
19:17
they should therefore be shown on television
19:19
only if there is an overriding editorial justification
19:23
we do not believe there is such justification for their use
19:26
in the debate
19:34
i want to bring us onto another case another very important question
19:38
does the concept of freedom of speech include the rights to be offensive is
19:43
that ever justification for deliberately provoking
19:47
a reaction
19:48
this is what the makers of the dutch television film submission set out to do
19:53
the film is about the alleged subjugation of women in islam
19:57
and uses highly controversial images of this is from the koran inscribed on a
20:01
woman's body
20:02
images which we are not showing
20:05
films director tab and golf
20:07
was murdered
20:08
and mutilated by outrage muslim man after was broadcast
20:12
unloads condemning the film was pinned to his chest
20:15
our next guest is high stand out west lockton who was the producer of this
20:19
film a friend and colleague of terror vendor off
20:23
generality
20:24
your questions types
20:26
what do you think would happen if we have to censor every comments
20:30
ad-free image
20:32
but somebody found offensive
20:34
we just at the new show you didn't show the crucial seems to know
20:37
from submission
20:39
to do the job
20:45
worst thing that can happen is self censorship
20:47
that's exactly what just happened
20:50
room and feel
20:52
on what you think the impact will be on the democratic process
20:56
brooks beginning of the end of democracy
20:59
anna for your kind of freedom
21:02
many people have suggested that submission
21:04
is a racist film
21:06
in fact it was written by
21:08
a muslim woman
21:09
who relates
21:10
and her experiences
21:12
do you think it's racist for a muslim woman to say
21:15
these are the lessons are trough from my experiences as a woman
21:18
living in islamic societies are not at all mister personal thing
21:22
shopping revolutionary about it
21:26
why do you think that people
21:28
think of it as racist
21:30
in her case
21:31
too too long
21:33
and sees a heretic she's an inferno on that's probably the worst termination
21:36
form
21:38
democratic also directs
21:41
and hugs
21:42
morbid of terrifying gulf
21:44
made other filmmakers and writers think twice about
21:48
tent acting the question of islam or other controversial issues
21:51
absolutely
21:54
i haven't heard
21:55
anything uh... an endorsement
21:58
rightly so
22:00
it's very sensible for the people not
22:03
to try and save the things that they are set
22:06
arianna geology
22:10
thank you very much heat kevin mallika imran khan it's not your questions to
22:14
house
22:15
surrender
22:16
let's lock 'em believe in democracy yes
22:20
jews in the debate
22:22
about the position of women is and faults by featuring
22:27
nuns in point graphic films
22:29
then it'll be better to go up cores are so it would be
22:32
please ask question do you think the debate about the position of women in
22:35
society is
22:36
advanced by such a thing
22:39
how that could be because it could be the away to want to uh... and also be
22:43
buried and force it and ah...
22:45
return on that
22:46
yeah if we don't debate
22:52
see you did it involves a rights of women is that right
22:56
obviously but i've been in making a film producer
22:58
is that right between the bosnian
23:00
the before both for another see obviously a vocal was exactly to do that
23:05
dot wilson at school since they do you believe in
23:07
the freedom of speech four
23:10
anti women violent not perfect
23:12
i believe in freedom of speech for everybody within the boundaries of law
23:16
but time
23:21
after classes g believe in freedom speech for and two women
23:25
pornography
23:27
exam within the boundaries of the more sadat goes that's fine with it
23:31
this if it's a good within the boundaries of the law
23:33
so for example
23:34
did you consider would you do you think
23:37
the reaction of muslim women standing up for their rights investor cited you
23:40
gauge their reaction to that and holds their ability
23:44
participates in the democratic process in holland
23:48
there was a it was a debate for instance with arianna c_r_t_ uh... and which
23:51
islamic women
23:52
uh...
23:53
where half of them you could say returns and hardware
23:57
majority are you bitter nobles from the american roots when women uh...
24:02
saying no to the film
24:04
basically but there was a big knows listing all about what did it move
24:08
to give the rights to women in holland absolutely and give rights when homes
24:13
welcome to put it on the map
24:15
as we progress and to give whites wanted involves a debate
24:18
did it increase democratic process
24:20
absolutely
24:21
before he was rising
24:23
everything that they've just been to dome image and uh...
24:26
and hans is the the democratic pros
24:34
door allotted time thank you very much
24:37
thank you very much indeed
24:38
uh... guys
24:39
uh... by the west lapd
24:46
take different views on whether or not freedom of speech implies a right to
24:50
offend
24:51
but is also a right to be protected from offense
24:55
and defects including islam
24:57
have a right to special protection
25:00
our next guest
25:01
is abraham okra
25:02
here's the chair of the moms and lost for the muslim council britain
25:07
he has spoken out for the muslim community on many of these recent
25:10
controversies
25:12
their income your questions to at the moment
25:16
when her insults about islam and when jack stroll
25:20
tony blair demand
25:22
false that women remove the fans country what effect
25:26
doesn't achchi hai
25:28
uh... on the streets in was in communities
25:31
it's very uh... unfortunate that uh...
25:33
does very sections of our communities
25:36
that have been labeled as
25:38
the voice this community
25:40
uh... the
25:41
bottom off the
25:43
ladder
25:44
sections of our communities
25:46
uh... that silent section of our committees those women
25:50
have been
25:50
attacked and have been set upon
25:53
uh... by somebody who wishes to
25:55
uh... promote staircase
25:57
well this has led to is actually at for the marginalize issue of this very small
26:01
number of uh... women who we were hoping to bring into
26:05
if you like mainstream life
26:06
uh... it has added to the demonization
26:09
off the muslim communities
26:10
there has been and increase on attacks on veiled women something that we never
26:14
had before
26:15
in a big way as such as these
26:17
uh... and these women have been attacked specifically because no waiting avail
26:22
when you have these headlines
26:23
that we see in the press regularly
26:27
wise uh... how does the media portrayed
26:30
mostly into these headphones houses affected
26:33
there is a drip drip uh...
26:35
programs or efforts in
26:38
trying to create a picture as if muslims uh... misfits there's more space for
26:43
muslims in a democratic
26:44
pluralist society
26:46
we want to make space for ourselves and we expect the british public to
26:49
accommodate us as we are as long as we are biding by the rules of the land we
26:54
do not wish to change anybody's way of life we do not wish to plan impose
26:57
always of always apply for anybody
26:59
all you want is to live in the state
27:01
with one another
27:03
uh... when you leave newspaper headlines a c muslim cabbies refuses to candy a
27:08
guy bill on
27:10
why does the headline have to be muslim can't be widely not have been london
27:13
cabbie
27:14
i know them and have become one
27:22
your questions for phil gramm laga
27:24
he considered important to you consider the rights of minorities
27:29
the real price of the kind of censorship you talking about
27:33
will be paid by the most vulnerable groups including the most vulnerable
27:36
groups
27:37
within muslim societies
27:39
i don't believe that because if you look at society as a home
27:42
in infect people in new york business and your trade is the is always the case
27:46
of self-censorship
27:47
they are things that
27:49
uh... you regulate yourself you make sure that are you making a an editorial
27:52
judgment or a judgment as to have a full have done and i applaud applaud you for
27:56
the decision of not showing the cartoons
27:59
uh... we have other laws in our country that prevent you from saying exactly
28:03
what you want to say for example we have uh... libel laws
28:06
we have rescission legislation
28:08
we have lost commandos
28:10
uh... we have so many other laws that make sense to ship was there
28:13
prevent you from st
28:15
exactly what you said that does not mean that minority groups will suffer any
28:18
worse than majority groups is not about minority and majority but my point is
28:23
the such censorship
28:25
mostly effect
28:27
book most vulnerable that were police access to power which includes uh...
28:32
winning lesbians and gays willingness in communities which is why women's
28:36
organizations lesbian gay organizations within the sentiments are opposed to the
28:40
bombing of offensive states if we reflect on what missus troy has done
28:44
that's exactly what he has done he has
28:47
target of a small group of out british community
28:50
and his marginalize them by refusing them the very right
28:54
freedom to choose that we'd today are debating here
29:01
the it's made out to us
29:03
and anybody else has the right to say there were all
29:06
to wear and it is wrong to help the bail in dot flushing
29:09
do not see markets friends say for islam the phobic about saying that nobody has
29:14
said that missus tro does not have a right to say i don't like this and i
29:18
don't feel uncomfortable on that
29:20
the amenities on one count of about
29:22
which i would wish to express but for the greater good
29:26
to enhance the cohesion and the respect and holly that we or desire for a
29:31
comedian i'd choose to sacrifice might
29:35
uh... right to exercise what i'd be what i believe is my freedom to say and i
29:39
don't think so i don't behave in a selfish way
29:42
uh... but i are your brother at the end the greater good
29:45
and swallow my pride or swallow my edge to say what i believe in say to enhance
29:50
the case for confusion in our communities together
29:59
thank you very much indeed
30:09
a man who has led u_k_ protests against the pope's remarks about my habit last
30:13
month
30:14
but first
30:14
let's take a break
30:16
anna
30:17
welcome back to the dispatches debate where exploring tensions between muslims
30:21
and free speech
30:23
in a speech last month the pope quoted from a medieval theologian using these
30:27
provocative words
30:29
shammi just what muhammad brought but was new and there you'll find things
30:34
only evil and inhuman
30:36
such as his commands to spread by the sword
30:39
the faith he preached
30:41
well the results was another round of furious protests in many countries
30:45
including britain
30:46
our next guest is touch it was tough he is a london-based representative
30:51
of the islamic group has put tarea
30:53
which loudly condemned the pope for what he said
30:56
whose material is a controversial group within the muslim community and the
31:00
government is threatened in the past about it
31:02
m income
31:03
your questions
31:05
is agreeing to sue us for like a thing called people here that the
31:09
hope is a very influential individual
31:12
absolutely the world statesman whose every word calories significance
31:16
now in terms of his comments
31:19
i have no problem with debates would dialogue
31:21
with individual people
31:23
but why did you have to choose
31:25
and hide behind
31:27
the words of a fortune century improve described this man as well just
31:30
interviewed by john snow in a provocative meant to say and i
31:33
discovered nothing ball
31:34
evil an inhuman things so falsely that was the insult it was such a furor and i
31:39
think rightly so in my opinion and lead to a lot of a peaceful demonstration
31:42
across the world
31:43
but it came in the context this is a world where bush is talking about a
31:48
stumble fascist blair
31:50
is talking about
31:51
prospects of a stumbling evil ideology india war until rhetoric i think that
31:56
frame came the pull
31:58
talked-about islam being evil
32:00
unsafe they're easy to understand how this incendiary comments view out
32:04
assigned this added fuel to the war on terror propaganda leavin bushe blair to
32:08
carry on with their lives those walls
32:10
killing of a million people
32:12
on the wall focuses on
32:14
just rolls comments
32:16
these ridiculous comments about without the pokemon is insulting comments rather
32:20
than the real crimes which have been committed in ogden age set have those
32:24
comments being made
32:28
companies com is being made in a different context
32:31
would have been the sense of objection muslims have no problem with all of my
32:35
old as asian globally distributed a challenger league flat
32:38
approach a little poll
32:39
you want to discuss the suspected issues islamabad as this will go chris dodd to
32:43
volunteer for the papacy which has a very bloody issued a license of of a
32:47
crusade
32:48
land
32:50
does the discussion what muslims will not accept
32:55
i want to know human beings muslim emotion except
32:58
protrude just this sort of other believes that they do anything did to
33:01
them
33:01
don to provoke
33:03
not to debate is a lot of weight aka george sister souljah statement
33:07
along with his speech the whole of which i have read
33:10
he led a one-sided analyses that somehow
33:13
chris hedges with good reason
33:14
it's not misleading violence in front of him was talking about violence in
33:19
religion in front of at least four and a going to iraq to spread by the gun he's
33:23
very believes the liberal democracy
33:25
why did you analyzed i can tell the people using violence to spread the
33:29
bodies
33:30
what the court itself
33:31
notes if you would like to put a place for them
33:36
of public global war on terror
33:38
and muslims will not accept the vilification and i think all the people
33:41
should be a wetsuit is one last question one last question because we've heard
33:44
there is no such thing as a summer phobia
33:47
they'd doesn't exist is made up of people hide behind it
33:50
you know which accused people of racism
33:53
and to stop for inspiration
33:55
in your opinion your experience
33:58
is there arises from doesn't exist
34:00
what does it mean
34:01
well let's look at the last two weeks chuck strolls collins
34:05
jewelry followed in your muslim parents children all to the where is your kids
34:08
in the threat bruce cutler muslim schools protectionism we've done that in
34:12
the back of that
34:13
mostly women been attacking george discusses this issue was arrived at all
34:16
take nothing gov dot said so what is this this is p_r_ evidence that the
34:21
incendiary comments all politicians are leading to attacks by not diverted
34:25
people from portals politicians to account about their marriage was walls
34:29
on policies which is the all of us to be onsite so definitely on the ground
34:33
evidence parts of the fact
34:35
these comments
34:36
have a huge impacting committee cohesion of relations between all of us and
34:40
regulation
34:45
tonight
34:46
no questions
34:48
coming we become too touchy-feely about everything
34:51
the pope makes
34:53
in an off-hand way quite some medieval emperor
34:56
uh... in a speech in makes no-fly islam but about the relationship between
35:00
science and religion everybody jumps on it
35:03
just make sure that people just wanting to get offended
35:08
the bulls cupboards were largely about it's not a list of all it would be ok
35:11
milestone in which a hero i and i don't know where you're going to be a hub the
35:14
i'm going to speak if you can't wait to see how to let you speak about his
35:17
relative eyes on this part of our respect
35:19
was about the relationship between religion
35:22
uh... and side so why does he said that i was twelve but i know that there was
35:26
an offhand remark unite
35:28
uh... about at v
35:30
at was that islam
35:32
and approaching and the people and pora the point i'm making is that people
35:36
awaiting to get offended but those kinds of issues really afraid that if i told
35:41
your mom of course of the other reasonable rational human being
35:44
are expected to perform the job security any of us here
35:47
does that give me the right to a sociable gratuitously of course the
35:50
religious imposing so when you do you say things they do cause offence
35:54
the pope shelves
35:56
why hide behind the words of a fourteen sent you walk this is a professor of
36:00
theology caudill rhapsody but now the pool
36:03
because it does a man i don't want things to say
36:05
in this project
36:06
more intelligent causation of muslims across europe
36:10
dot to view mister paul
36:13
it's hard to irresponsible
36:14
to calm with such quote
36:16
ashanti he'll pull people should know better
36:26
leaders islamic organizations including yourself exactly known for their
36:29
progressive views about
36:31
days
36:33
jews and so on
36:34
is the spectacle of you accuse ng the pulpit of doc would be is a bit like
36:38
donald trump accusing bill gates of having too much money asserted that the
36:42
structure
36:45
physically cut off
36:47
the reality is what
36:49
people have the right when they are offenders to say so
36:53
but you haven't got a friend
36:55
do you expect went to modify let's i would say designs but it would have put
36:59
the point is that
37:00
arctic spine also except the right to the enemy to let them know what's not to
37:04
let you know demanded the freedom to itself
37:08
does the vote which is not about the things you want to let the freedom to
37:12
seoul
37:12
inaudible identified talking to people to insult me i don't think a lot of
37:16
course i don't think people should have arrived
37:21
had
37:23
should people let's have the right to sort all this
37:25
generational result as processional resulted
37:27
american muscle anybody else
37:29
should not have to live in a society where by the news unsalted will not lead
37:33
to holiday will not only to tensions
37:35
so it's very irrational illogical a nonsensical
37:39
decides opted to go on a soldier one another tied to a server thank you very
37:42
much
37:50
dynamometer we want to give our audience a final vote on where they stand on
37:54
muslims of free speech but fast
37:56
our final best is sharma chakravarty
38:01
she's group puts it
38:05
campaigns to protect
38:06
freedom of speech
38:08
your questions
38:09
imran khan
38:12
why shouldn't we
38:14
exercise restraint on freedom of speech
38:18
in the present moment
38:20
i think it's important on if i may say sadness
38:22
very sexy television polarize the bank to make a distinction
38:27
between
38:27
yours right
38:29
you legal right to be a free society uh... of free speech not on facts it
38:33
because we don't want to open up a fee an insight into her decision
38:37
there's always something of interest some
38:39
necessary and proportionately intentions on free speech
38:43
let's separate
38:44
your legal rights the type of defense to the death actually
38:49
went back on some moral echo sensible
38:51
sensitive
38:52
polite individual human being you cheese on a given day in a given format to say
38:57
this or that that's really important you have a right and of free speech
39:03
but it's not duty
39:04
took always and to say the most offensive
39:15
and i might add
39:16
that free speech is under attack in this country
39:19
that not from newsstands all christians or or just people effect date from big
39:24
brother politicians could be a guest
39:32
right uh... he wasn't given affixed penalty notice
39:35
he and the burning what thomas st mary's friend
39:38
his friend said what did you do it that weekend and he said
39:43
you can work out what the what the missing work gloves
39:46
say yes free speech is under attack it's a bit of a shame that we're talking
39:49
about it as if it's just from listening to this mail
39:52
philibosian
39:53
what
39:56
have helped
39:58
there's no such thing as a attacks on the simpson that that business listings
40:02
this rise in his home phone
40:04
i don't aboard he was just a six but
40:07
just from your expertise your experts as an organization
40:11
working in this field
40:12
what is the status of
40:14
attacks on muslims in this country was you
40:17
they get the idea that the protective
40:19
that mister ames
40:20
in the current climate haven't been under attack
40:23
is if you pardon my french buzzcocks
40:27
dot let me say this or in one quite passionately defended free speech is all
40:32
the little bunnies freedom of expression is incredibly important so what we need
40:36
by example
40:37
we want to say it's it's it's a miss linens as a slightly we in solidarity in
40:42
friendship that the every offended by thank all teens
40:45
fight sticks and stones a break here but it is
40:48
cult scenes if we want to say that and why should we be safe offended by women
40:52
he achieves to wear a heads gulf or haiti or anything else hiroko thank you
40:57
very much
41:04
dole questions to charger about it
41:08
i agree with you to the right
41:09
to free speech does not include a_t_t_ to offend
41:13
just as the right to people's does not mean that we all have to get divorced in
41:17
the morning that's right
41:18
but the rights to free speech must include the right to give if that's just
41:23
like the right to divorce means that we can get divorced in the morning they
41:26
agree without eight absolutely as a
41:28
legal rights because we will disagree about what is the fences and and what is
41:32
that you just look at the house as an eagle rights
41:35
we cannot have peace nationalize action of personal ethical specs satish either
41:40
because their threats of violence or threats of prosecution we can't have
41:44
conversations the combo rep along together but what we need is to be
41:48
individual moral ethical beings sensible people which actually in this country
41:53
for said hundreds of years we've broadly how often and make these individual
41:57
decisions about what to say somewhere to sing it
42:01
free speech is often seen as the enemy of minorities
42:04
do you agree with that
42:06
outsole
42:07
everybody isn't cycles of the human rights but sometimes in a democracy it's
42:12
its minorities he needs to be rights protection than last
42:15
know the woods
42:19
another was a real problem is not free speech is sought but the failure to
42:23
apply it universally what we need is more free speech not less
42:28
resettling and even-handed application so as i say free expression and
42:33
conscience means
42:34
sometimes you get to where what you like as friends say what you like
42:37
but also i i have to say
42:39
that economic talking about there was
42:42
there's no such thing any democracy in our imagination or in history that has
42:47
on the fact it's free speech look at the importance of child pornography
42:50
incitement to measure uh... and some other
42:53
necessary
42:54
a proportionate restrictions anal
43:09
porter audience think i want to bring this to a final vote you've got to
43:12
consider
43:13
all the arguments you've had
43:15
to visit right sacrifice freedom of speech to avoid causing offence to
43:19
muslims
43:20
canandaigua stroll final words to the audience
43:23
within the constitution of because of hostilities we sell was protect muslims
43:28
print too much free speech
43:31
i believe that he exaggerates extends about hostility not because it doesn't
43:36
exist it certainly does but because it does make this to the extent that talks
43:40
about and the idea of islam a phobia is all too often use poseidon critics of
43:46
this law
43:47
but even if it was trade-up britain is a deeply summer for the two nations ascii
43:51
selfless
43:52
who is it that most
43:53
benefits from censorship
43:55
not powerless in the political thorough that that those that boat possessed both
43:59
the power to sense that and then necessity to do set
44:03
free speech is the friend
44:05
yelping enemy of minorities including muslims
44:08
we should defend it
44:09
the bedrock of that open died this democratic society
44:23
i wrote on your final workers
44:27
i think what we're seeing tonight
44:29
is rich
44:31
danish newspapers mccann spots one too
44:35
and not started to print
44:37
i think we've seen it a defense of the rights of pornographers not those who
44:41
support women's rights things in the media
44:44
buyers from top to bottom
44:46
owned by the rich and powerful
44:48
defending itself
44:50
under this banner a free speech
44:53
things the right of st free speech
44:55
hands will very few
44:58
all the more reason
45:00
while alarm bells should bring when one community one single community
45:05
he singled out for a systematic offense
45:08
muslims a being vilified
45:10
twice
45:12
firstly to the publication of offensive material
45:15
and second
45:16
for excise the democratic right to purchase
45:20
to paraphrase
45:21
steve biko
45:23
the south african black nationalists
45:26
not only aldayt kicking ***
45:28
and telling us how to react to being kicked
45:32
isn't that
45:33
what's really
45:42
well they're ugly advocates arguments you've heard the before we come to the
45:46
vote let's uh... hear from some of you
45:49
uh... some of you have kind of made up their minds for your update i'm
45:52
wondering whether
45:54
with changed any of them
45:56
were you on this issue
45:58
i think you can have freedom of speech but it's going to have fun and saying
46:01
this responsibility and respect
46:03
and it's okay to have a job with iran can in time
46:06
and yet haha
46:08
uh... what about you
46:10
i think that uh... too much is made and sent them the muslim
46:14
feelings
46:15
and i think that consider this as the lawrence instead
46:19
uses christine country
46:21
basically
46:22
and
46:23
senate blame it on the ues
46:26
going to be a head
46:27
victimized
46:29
there is too much time spent on the muslim problem
46:33
thank you very much uh...
46:35
uh... i don't agree with any of them
46:41
kekeke
46:43
i think fritos pieces in the details
46:46
uh... but i think
46:47
what we need right now is a dialogue between those cultures
46:51
and at the way you produce these being used
46:54
it's driving both sides of the extremes
46:56
uh... so how can you expect reasons to integrate when you're in something that
47:00
symbols
47:02
however i don't think that in legislation of the arms thank you very
47:05
much and uh... what i do
47:09
on monday insolvent
47:11
and that means a lot of people
47:13
stereogum unfettered free speech pretty much a
47:17
thank you very much
47:19
uh... that's the moment then that we want u
47:23
uh...
47:24
are muslims threatening freedom of speech
47:28
beaudoin for yes
47:30
but to folder
47:32
please vote
47:34
yeah
47:47
well the result is in our studio audience has voted
47:51
let's take a look at what their findings were all muslims threatening freedom of
47:55
speech
47:59
very interesting p extraordinarily close at a tremendous tribute to both or other
48:04
kids
48:05
fall this very interesting votes
48:07
to the question are muslims threatening freedom of speech
48:10
that result clearly seems to indicate that in a multicultural society
48:15
there is too high a price to pay for unfettered free speech freedom for the
48:19
fence is an equally important right for all to enjoy
48:23
very interesting finding it a very interesting opening salvos
48:27
for your national debate prime minister
48:29
that's it from us thank you very much for watching dispatches it's back again
48:33
on monday same time
48:41
passes self-made millionaire businessman that how much
48:45
five-year-old
48:57
the now
Imranpak
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I've every right to disagree but not insult the faith of anyone that will certainly cause provocation. Believers of any ideology should not force their views on others either so don't tell me to grow a beard;) I can laugh at the kumbh mela but not insult Hindu dieties or people they hold in high regard, the difference between the two is clear for those who can think!
No one mentioned how denying the holocaust is a crime in many countries simply to protect the Jews. There is a limit to freedom of expression in all things, those who claim that people are free to insult their Mother's must be b@stard's to begin with seeing the lack of respect they have for the one who gave them life.
Frustrated lady in the end claiming for the UK being a Christian country is correct but that does not give them the right to mock other faiths. By that logic we should start taking the crap out of Paul, the Pope and Nun's in Muslim countries.
Power, when used wrongly become abuse!
No one mentioned how denying the holocaust is a crime in many countries simply to protect the Jews. There is a limit to freedom of expression in all things, those who claim that people are free to insult their Mother's must be b@stard's to begin with seeing the lack of respect they have for the one who gave them life.
Frustrated lady in the end claiming for the UK being a Christian country is correct but that does not give them the right to mock other faiths. By that logic we should start taking the crap out of Paul, the Pope and Nun's in Muslim countries.
Power, when used wrongly become abuse!
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