Moses crossing of red Sea explained by scientists

Unicorn

Banned
It must have taken a long time for this natural phenomenon to occur so that nearly one million can cross.

Noah managed to to carry over 17,000 mammals and million tons food in a 45 feet wooden boat at the altitude of nearly 30,000 feet.

Biblical stories and science is at odds.
 

sarbakaf

Siasat.pk - Blogger
It must have taken a long time for this natural phenomenon to occur so that nearly one million can cross.

Noah managed to to carry over 17,000 mammals and million tons food in a 45 feet wooden boat at the altitude of nearly 30,000 feet.

Biblical stories and science is at odds.

well you keep on believing in mahabaharat stories , who said you should believe in biblical stories .
Secondly if science was to judge religion than hinduism was the first one to vanish........think over it
 

Unicorn

Banned
well you keep on believing in mahabaharat stories , who said you should believe in biblical stories .
Secondly if science was to judge religion than hinduism was the first one to vanish........think over it

You are absolutely right they are so ridiculous that they don't even deserve to be placed on scientific table. A women having 99 children some have tried to explain scientifically it was quite pathetic.Most end up believing the scientist . Same scientists are unable to replicate it today to prove their claim.
 
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behzadji

Minister (2k+ posts)
Why do we need to go for an explanation for any miracle. I think that a miracle is a miracle which can't be understood by the human discretion.That's why it is called as mojeza(aqal ko aajiz ker daynay wala). Simply say I believe whatever is mentioned in the Quran and the Ahadith of our beloved Prophet Sallalaho Alehye wasallam and that's it. That tongue can never say any thing wrong as it is guarded by the Allah Almighty.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It must have taken a long time for this natural phenomenon to occur so that nearly one million can cross.

Noah managed to to carry over 17,000 mammals and million tons food in a 45 feet wooden boat at the altitude of nearly 30,000 feet.

Biblical stories and science is at odds.

Thank you dear Unicorn for your response. If you are thinking that historical records are not trustable at all then I am afraid I disagree but if you are trying to tell me that some records might have been misinterpreted then yes that is always a possibility. However in that case it is better to have the original information and see if it can be interpreted others ways as well that make better sense. This is how scientific method works.

If you cannot explain clues or evidences that does not mean you throw away the evidences or clues. It means one should carry on the search and keep on exploring and hopefully one day things will make sense.

Religious scriptures do carry truth in them but yes, they have been covered up by made up stories and that is the real problem.

You can think of things people invented or built long time ago, they are there but information as to how people did those thing is lost eg how pyramids were exactly build. Likewise ancient sacred texts carry very interesting true information in them but we need to be able to rediscover that information to se what it exactly was rather than throwing away the scriptures.

This is why we need to work together if we wish to discover truth about things and use our brains instead of deciding not to bother.

As for story of prophet noah and his people and the ark that is true as it is in the quranic context and becaue it can be understood from the quran in quranic context it is possible to correct jewish and christian cholars as well.

Noah did not build a boat but a state according to guidance of Allah. People of noah are people who were in the same boat ie in the same situation and circumstance who joined forces to set up a separate place for themselves. Think of pakistan and why muslims created it. Think of israelites why they had to leave egypt.

THis is what all the messengers of Allah did. When their kings and chiefs mesed up their people some stood up to them and either fought back or left the place for another place.

This is the problem with people who do not try to understand scriptures as to what is real story. It is same story even today.

This is why people of noah took all they had with them when they shifted from one place to the other that they chose for themselves.

ARK=BOAT=same situation circumstance wise or place wise or time wise etc etc.

You now read bible with this in mind and you will have less problem accepting the text.

regards and all the best.
 
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Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Why do we need to go for an explanation for any miracle. I think that a miracle is a miracle which can't be understood by the human discretion.That's why it is called as mojeza(aqal ko aajiz ker daynay wala). Simply say I believe whatever is mentioned in the Quran and the Ahadith of our beloved Prophet Sallalaho Alehye wasallam and that's it. That tongue can never say any thing wrong as it is guarded by the Allah Almighty.

Thank you dear behzadji for giving me opportunity to explain my point of view.

[FONT=&quot]When one reads the quran one will find that it is not a book of magical stories but actual facts. It starts, this is the book without possibility of doubt, for in it is sure guidance for those who want to be consistent with Allah and the mankind.

Those who accept its forecast on the basis of rational judgement therefore strive to implement the prescribed divine system in it and keep open what Allah has given them for the benefit of others.

So it is clear that the purpose of divine message is to guide people regarding life in this world. This means one who wants to guide others must know how this world works otherwise one cannot guide. The world works the way it does regardless we like it or not. So the guide must show how to live in this world within the ways and means of this world. It will be silly if Allah told man to do something that is impossible for him to do.

If a prophet is sent to guide people, he has to live like other people and use same ways and means what other have at their disposal to do what he wants them to do. If a prophet did things magically by power that is not available to people then what kind of guidance will that be?

This is why so called miracles are not miracle but made up stories to cover up the real stories of the prophets. It is nothing less than a great miracle that a messenger comes to a down trodden people and lifts them to heights.

The quran is full of stories of the prophets and no where it tells the prophets solved problems people faced miraculously. These stories are stories of great struggles by the prophets and those who followed them.

The lesson given in these stories is that if you ever fall in these situations then how to get out of them using whatever is available to you.

The quran is not free of miracles but they are prophecies or predicted outcomes. Allah has made known to people what is going to happen if they did certain things in certain ways.

Allah does not change a nation till it changes itself or that Allah helps those who help themselves. These like verses in the quran tell us don't wait for miracles and saviors rather do what you need to do as a nation to be successful in this life.

One needs to realise what was the problem with earlier people that Allah decided to send the quran. The problem was those people believed in magical solutions to their problems and they repeatedly asked the prophet to show us miracle but Allah said, it is up to me to [/FONT]guide and for you to follow.

Allah kept telling his messenger stories of the past prophets and people to encourage him and his followers to do things to change their situation for the better.

The quran is very clear that each prophet worked very hard to give people the right mindset and attitude to bring about a better human society. This is what the test is all about for which Allah has created man. Allah only helps people by his direct guidance and by raising thoughts in peoples' minds and bringing things to their attention. The rest is up to people to take it or leave it. If they take it they themselves will have a great life and if they leave it then pain and suffering will continue and will keep getting worse. This is what is made clear in the start of 2nd surah.

IMAAN BIL GHAIB=believing in the result Allah has already foretold, accepting this as a fact and implementing the divine world order and getting the foretold result is the point of revelation of the quran.

Today we have made a habbit to read the quran without any understanding looking for swaab=benefits. How can one benefit from a message that one does not bother to understand? If I send a person a message to do something for me and he does not bother receiving it or receives it but does not bother reading it or reads it but does not bother understanding it, how would he carry out what I am asking him to do?

The message is as important as its purpose. Not fulfilling the purpose of the message is same as never received the message.

The quran is a miracle because it contain such information as could only and only come from divine source. There was never any miracle from Allah for any prophet other than the prophecies ie messages from Allah.

There are a lot of people who believe in made up stories of karamaaat as well this is why they run to saints and what not. The quran was sent to such superstitious people but the prophet managed to turn them round.

People have invented stories about angels, demons, satan etc etc. If we want to follow the quran, we need to get rid of this mindset that makes us dependent on our make beliefs which causes us to lose the track of real world and life in it. That is a recipe for disaster. The quran was sent by Allah to make people rational and logical and scientific.

One can see how the quran explains natural phenomena verse after verse instead of mumbo jumbo that ignorant people talk about. This is proof enough that the quran wants people to be sensible not unreasonable.

The Prophet could have taken advantage of these foolish people by telling them more of what they used to believe but instead he decided to work hard on them for 23 long years to change them from those silly ideas and practices. He did this not for himself but for them. This is why he cannot be a false prophet because false prophets do things for themselves not others.

Hope this helps. regards and all the best.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Thank you dear Unicorn for your response. If you are thinking that historical records are not trustable at all then I am afraid I disagree but if you are trying to tell me that some records might have been misinterpreted then yes that is always a possibility. However in that case it is better to have the original information and see if it can be interpreted others ways as well that make better sense. This is how scientific method works.

If you cannot explain clues or evidences that does not mean you throw away the evidences or clues. It means one should carry on the search and keep on exploring and hopefully one day things will make sense.

Religious scriptures do carry truth in them but yes, they have been covered up by made up stories and that is the real problem.

You can think of things people invented or built long time ago, they are there but information as to how people did those thing is lost eg how pyramids were exactly build. Likewise ancient sacred texts carry very interesting true information in them but we need to be able to rediscover that information to se what it exactly was rather than throwing away the scriptures.

This is why we need to work together if we wish to discover truth about things and use our brains instead of deciding not to bother.

As for story of prophet noah and his people and the ark that is true as it is in the quranic context and becaue it can be understood from the quran in quranic context it is possible to correct jewish and christian cholars as well.

Noah did not build a boat but a state according to guidance of Allah. People of noah are people who were in the same boat ie in the same situation and circumstance who joined forces to set up a separate place for themselves. Think of pakistan and why muslims created it. Think of israelites why they had to leave egypt.

THis is what all the messengers of Allah did. When their kings and chiefs mesed up their people some stood up to them and either fought back or left the place for another place.

This is the problem with people who do not try to understand scriptures as to what is real story. It is same story even today.

This is why people of noah took all they had with them when they shifted from one place to the other that they chose for themselves.

ARK=BOAT=same situation circumstance wise or place wise or time wise etc etc.

You now read bible with this in mind and you will have less problem accepting the text.

regards and all the best.

There is a Passage in the Bible that states: Satan took thee to the highest mountain in the land had showeth all the kingdoms of the earth than said" all these can be yours if you kneel down and pray to me" He said halt Satan thow shall worship thy lord.

Did this incident really took place ? I say no, if it does than whats the point.

We as humans, at least me, can relate to it in a metaphorical sense. Satan takes all of us to the highest mountain every day and shows us the false kingdoms of greed saying no is the worship to lord.

I admire your humble approach to these matter.
 

Raaz

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
@Mughal 1, U r a good writer, but try to minimize the post.

Too long posts are mostly neglected by the majority.

Just few sentences may be enough if u try. but your style is really nice.

Hope u will not mind. regards.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Its good if you can draw some good in the story of Noah and apply in your daily life.

The staff of Mosses has the power to split the ocean this is the divine gift of the lord also known as Truth- Metaphorically speaking.
 

Raaz

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Why do we need to go for an explanation for any miracle. I think that a miracle is a miracle which can't be understood by the human discretion.That's why it is called as mojeza(aqal ko aajiz ker daynay wala). Simply say I believe whatever is mentioned in the Quran and the Ahadith of our beloved Prophet Sallalaho Alehye wasallam and that's it. That tongue can never say any thing wrong as it is guarded by the Allah Almighty.
U r right and Mughal 1 is not telling the right answer for it.

Is it not strange that they are tlaking about how Mosses crossed the river , but not about the shinning hand. and lot of other stuff.

Definately , True miracles could not be explained by science.

Because science could explain only the usual and every day phenomenons.

Where as Miracles happen by the creator , by bypassing these everyday science.

It is same thing like air technology could not be used as space technology.

flying across the world is different than flying to moon.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Mirza Kazab also used to do the Homeopathic treatment and I know lots of Qayani in Canada who dont give their kids even polio vaccine , because of Mirza said so.

I don't think they can get away from vaccinations in those countries they keep records of vaccinations from birth they are very stricket about it. They wont let children in classes unless records of vaccinations are provided by physicians.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
There is a Passage in the Bible that states: Satan took thee to the highest mountain in the land had showeth all the kingdoms of the earth than said" all these can be yours if you kneel down and pray to me" He said halt Satan thow shall worship thy lord.

Did this incident really took place ? I say no, if it does than whats the point.

We as humans, at least me, can relate to it in a metaphorical sense. Satan takes all of us to the highest mountain every day and shows us the false kingdoms of greed saying no is the worship to lord.

I admire your humble approach to these matter.

Dear Unicorn, word satan has various meanings eg the wicked person, the clever person, the wicked chief or leader, the expert etc etc.

This might as well be story of a king in the land who when he saw jesus succeeding with his movement, decided to entice him. This also happened with prophet of islam that when quraish saw him succeeding then they too offered him position of leadership. You know the saying, if you cannot beat them, join them.

The bible is not in its original text so it is difficult to justify everything it says.

I am only saying, sacred texts do have truth in them in general sense but save the quran there is no book on the face of the earth that makes claim of direct revelation. Other than the quran no other book exists in its original text.

As for leprosy, this is not the case of disease and its miracle cure rather it is case of one people isolating others under their power. I do not accept what people take as miracles as stated in the bible. There exist alternative explanations of these things in their proper historical contexts.

It is due to lack of knowledge that people just take anything into any direction not realizing the consequences.

The laws of nature work the way they do and we will never find them any other way.

People who claim truth of scriptures always fall back on laws of nature themselves. The law of cause and effect is in operation in everything man has become aware of so far and if that is the case so far then there is no reason why it should not be that way in the future.

The truth about things is established in two ways ie direct experience by senses and verification of the same thing by others.

Let say, a person is in the park and he see a tree. He goes and touches it and feels it and makes sure that it is a tree. It is still possible that this may not be true because the person may be experiencing all this in his mind. However if others also experience the very same thing independent of each other then it is yet more likely that it is true that the tree is out there and not just a creation of one's own mind.

This is why we can deny personal experiences of individuals but not universally accepted truths.

If I say the sun exists, I may be wrong but if we all can see that the sun does exist then it is not that likely that we are all seeing things.

This is why any claim to any revelation is only true if it does not contradict self evident reality that is universally accepted as such.

Miracles to prove divine truth are never witnessed by any of us in our daily life this is why any such claims are doubtful at most therefore such claims are likely to be false.

This does not mean that things do not happen in natural world that we cannot explain but that they can be explained as we continue developing techniques to do so.

Once upon a time germs were not known nor were medicines developed and all was left up to magic man. But as humanity made progress things that were not explainable then became well known by now.

So we cannot take things as miracles one day and see the next day that they were not.

A miracle has to be miracle always ie beyond human explanation forever. Not only that but there has to be a solid reason that makes miracles a necessity. So far there is no justifiable reason for any such miracles because such miracle are not really needed.

regards and all the best.
 
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Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@Mughal 1, U r a good writer, but try to minimize the post.

Too long posts are mostly neglected by the majority.

Just few sentences may be enough if u try. but your style is really nice.

Hope u will not mind. regards.



U r right and Mughal 1 is not telling the right answer for it.

Is it not strange that they are tlaking about how Mosses crossed the river , but not about the shinning hand. and lot of other stuff.

Definately , True miracles could not be explained by science.

Because science could explain only the usual and every day phenomenons.

Where as Miracles happen by the creator , by bypassing these everyday science.

It is same thing like air technology could not be used as space technology.

flying across the world is different than flying to moon.

Dear Raaz, thank you for your kind remarks. You are right that posts need to to short but these topics are such that require evidence so length increases even though I do not wish it to be so.

As for miracles, there are many problem with idea of such miracles as are claimed by imperial mullahs and their ignorant or wicked followers.

For example, what is purpose of those miracles? If you say to prove the claim of prophet-hood then my answer is that those miracles even if we accept that they did happen, would be only witnessed by a handful of people present there.

What about the vast number of people that are not there, how would they be able to to believe the prophet-hood of the claimant?

Can you see the problem?

The only answer to that question is, by word of mouth. So if all other people can believe the prophet-hood just by word of mouth then why not the ones who are shown the miracle? The very idea that prophet-hood can be believed by any people without such miracles proves such miracles are unnecessary. Necessary is only that without which something cannot happen.

Since those kinds of miracles are not necessary therefore why should they be made to happen?


The other problem is that such things do not happen usually, so when things that do not happen normally someone talks about them, we do not take that person seriously because we think he is not mentally right.

So if someone tells us that Moses' staff turned into snake or that magicians of Pharaoh were able to turn their ropes into snakes, we will not be able to believe such things because in our understanding of the world these things are highly unlikely to have happened. This opposes our experience of the real world.

This is not question of power of Allah as to what Allah can do or not do but a question of purpose that makes miracles necessity.

Why would Allah choose to prove messenger-ship of his prophet by way of unbelievable things that are not even necessary?

This is why Allah never showed any such miracle ever. He always sent his message to his messengers whereby he proved everything through arguments. This is why the quran is the miracle and so was injeel and toraat and zaboor etc.

The miracle stories were invented by israelite mullahs and muslims borrowed the same stories and they tried to turn the quran into similar story book.

We muslims need to be very careful as to what we accept and what we reject as proof of the prophet-hood of a divine messenger.

This will help explain why atheist reject religions and scriptures. It is because they see no value in them due to these like make up stories that are so obviously false and anti humanity. It is because they look at religions as war machines not values for social justice and compassion.

It is therefore very bad to interpret the quran in a way that makes a mockery of it on one hand and makes it look bad in the eyes of those who can think and need guidance to make this world a better place.

Christianity has lost its value because it teaches Jesus was born in a way that is not possible. He did things that were not possible. Not because God cannot do so but because God does not do things this way in human experience.

Furthermore, how could people know jesus was really conceived this way? So where is miracle in that? Thus claim proves inconsistent with the evident.

This is why I say, people interpret the quran according to their make beliefs without much thought to what they can prove and what they cannot prove.

The quran does not ask people to believe in it blindly but rationally. If one is rational and logical then one needs arguments not miracles to prove the point.

The quran proves it is true by way of clear arguments.

I hope this explains why I have the views that I have about the quran.

my regards and best wishes.
 

behzadji

Minister (2k+ posts)
Dear Mughal1,
I would like to mention here that getting an insight about a miracle is just like try to weigh the himalaya in a jewller's wieghing balance. So limited our discretion and wisdom is. I think we need to adopt the footsteps like Sayyadina Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique (Razi Allah Unho) said upon hearing the Meraj(Assent) of the Holy Prophet pbuh, when the infidels of Makkah told him that your Holy Prophet pbuh has claimed about his journey. You know what was the Hazrat Abu Bakr's (Razi Allah Unho) reply. He said that if He(Our beloved Prophet pbuh) has said so then yes I testify that. He didn't try to mention any logical reason about that and the Almighty said: وَٱلَّذِى جَآءَ بِٱلصِّدۡقِ وَصَدَّقَ بِهِۦۤ*ۙ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡمُتَّقُونَ (٣٣) 39:33 And he who brings the Truth and he who confirms (and supports) it - such are the men who do right.
I don't think we have any better wisdom than these Holy companions.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear Mughal1,
I would like to mention here that getting an insight about a miracle is just like try to weigh the himalaya in a jewller's wieghing balance. So limited our discretion and wisdom is. I think we need to adopt the footsteps like Sayyadina Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique (Razi Allah Unho) said upon hearing the Meraj(Assent) of the Holy Prophet pbuh, when the infidels of Makkah told him that your Holy Prophet pbuh has claimed about his journey. You know what was the Hazrat Abu Bakr's (Razi Allah Unho) reply. He said that if He(Our beloved Prophet pbuh) has said so then yes I testify that. He didn't try to mention any logical reason about that and the Almighty said: وَٱلَّذِى جَآءَ بِٱلصِّدۡقِ وَصَدَّقَ بِهِۦۤ*ۙ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡمُتَّقُونَ (٣٣) 39:33 And he who brings the Truth and he who confirms (and supports) it - such are the men who do right.
I don't think we have any better wisdom than these Holy companions.

Thank you behzadji for raising another point.

Islam as I understand it is fundamentally based on the quran. The quran according to the quran itself is based on logic and rationality. This is why everywhere in the quran Allah give reason for people to believe or do something.

Not only that but there is a verse in the quran that clearly states that the quran is word of Allah this is why it is consistent ie it is free of conflicts within itself as well as regarding things it is talking about 4/82.

There are so many verses in the quran that tell us it is KITAAB that is MUBEEN or that it contains verses that are MUBEEN. In the quran people are challenged to bring a book if what they claim is true. This idea of evidence and proof and proving is mention again and again in the quran.

HAATO BUHAANA KUM IN KUN TUM SAADIQEEN. bring your proof if you speak the truth. The quran is said to be BURHAA NUMMIR RABBIKUM= proof from your lord.

Such verses in the quran cannot be pushed aside no matter what we think. The quran tells us to be people of reason and think rationally to judge the evidences put forth in the quran. People are called YAA OOLIL ALBAAL, OOLIL ABSAAR etc etc. yaqiloon, yashuroon, yalamoon, yatafakaroon, yatazakaroon etc etc like words make it ample clear that the quran is book of knowledge that stops us from being ignorant and irrational.

This tells us that islam is based on reason not miracles and magic stories.

The quran tells us that jesus is not god and then gives reasons why not.

Christians ask, if god can do anything then why can he not become a man? The answer is, is it necessary for god to become a human? The answer is no. So long as necessity of purpose cannot be justified we cannot just believe anything anyone says.

The same is true in case of miracles that they are not necessary.

Just as we judge the quran according to logic and real world for its truth likewise we judge the ahadith reports, if they prove to be logically sound and not against the quran then they too are fine but if they contradict logic and self evident facts or the quran then we must reject them because they are not true. It matters not whether they are reported by bukhari or other collecters of ahadith. What is wrong is wrong no matter who says it.

If we know that Allah does not lie and somebody tells us that Allah told him something that is not true then we must reject that purely on that basis.

Likewise the hadith you quoted is full of problematic stuff, so it is clearly an invention. The point that needs to be clearly understood is this that anyone who tells something that is logically impossible or because it serves no purpose in the scheme of things then the reporter only proves himself a liar.

For example, it is told in the bukhari and muslim and abu dawood etc that the prophet married a six year old, should we accept this true just because it is told in so called saheeh books of ahadith by most authentic scholars? The answer is no, because according to the quran the prophet is a man of grand character.

It is because we do not give importance to logical thinking that we are in deep trouble today. We just believe anything anyone tells us whereas we were supposed to lead the world like bani israel used to do once upon a time.

I hope this explanation is of help. regards and all the best.




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