How Reliable is The story of Nooruddin Zengi?

Pakistani1947

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)

(Qur'an 5:67) يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ ۖ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ​
O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.
اے رسول جو تجھ پر تیرے رب کی طرف سے اترا ہے اسے پہنچا دے اور اگر تو نے ایسا نہ کیا تو اس کی پیغمبری کا حق ادا نہیں کیا اور الله تجھے لوگوں سے بچائے گا بے شک الله کافروں کی قوم کو راستہ نہیں دکھاتا

The story of Noor Uddin Zengi appeared first in the Book Wafa AlWafa written 500 years after the alleged incident, without mentioning any "isnad" (references). This is sufficient enough to describe it as baseless story.


I will just write what Imam Ibn Hajr (a Shafa’ii scholar) said concerning the issue from the perspective of the madhabs, fuqaha and muhaditheen. What we wish to dispute is the common and innovated (u will see why, as ibn hajr noted) notion that seeing the Prophet ‘alahi salam in a dream means you saw him *actually*, whereas that is not the case.

It is an image from Allah in a dream. If the Prophet (‘alahi salam) tells us of something in a dream which is about to happen, it does not mean he knows the unseen actually. It means that the dream will be true and its contents would come to pass. I will just present the translation which I rendered: [Ibn Hajar’s explanation is briefly mentioned here , here and here, but we will expand it with further excerpts]

Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani (Al-Shafa’ii) said (commenting on hadith no 6748 in fath al-bari):


Imam Al-Qurtubi (aMaliki scholar, author of the famous Tafsir Al-Qurtubi) said: “There are different opinions about the explanation of this hadith ( “Whoever sees me in a dream will see me when he is awake; the Shaytaan cannot take my shape”).

Some people said they would take the literal meaning, that whoever sees him in a dream sees him actually, and hence seeing him in a dream is the same as seeing him while awake. But this is an opinion which is so baseless (fasid) that even basic intellect is enough to know it is wrong. This opinion necessitates that anyone who sees him (in a dream) will see him in the form he died in and also that two persons should not be able to see him at two different places if they dream at the same time.

This opinion also means that he pbuh is alive, leaves his grave, walks about in the markets, speaks to people and they speak to him. It also entails that his grave does not contain his body, and hence his grave is empty and those visiting are just going to just (an empty) grave and say salam (greetings) to someone who is not there, since (according to this claim) he can really be seen at anytime of the day (in a dream) in places other than his grave. Anyone who has the least grip on his senses will not hold on to such ignorance.”

Ibn Battal (author of an earlier explanation of Sahih Al-Bukhari) said: “The hadith ‘ will see me when he is awake’ means that the dream is true and will come to pass. It does not mean that he will see him on the Day of Judgment, since there everyone would be able to see him, whether they saw him in a dream or not. ”

Al-Maziri said, “it may mean that it is specific to the people of his time, that if they see him in a dream, they will see him while awake after they meet him by doing hijra (emigration). This was sign which he was told by Wahi (revelation)”

Al-Qadhi (Al-‘Iyadh) said: “It means that he will soon find the dream to be true and it will come to pass when he is awake.”

About some reports that some Salihoon (pious people) saw him in dreams and then saw him pbuh while awake too and asked him of various things, I (Ibn Hajar) say: “This is very problematic (muskil jiddan). If it were really like that, then these people would have been Companions (sahabah), and it would be possible that there would be Companions (Sahabah) right until

the Day of Judgment! What unsettles this claim is that numerous people saw him in dream, but never reported seeing him when awake, but the news given by the truthful (i.e. the Prophet ‘alaihi salam) does not remain unfulfilled. As we mentioned earlier, Al-Qurtubi was very severely against the notion that seeing him in a dream means seeing him really (haqeeqatahu).”

END OF QUOTES from Fath Al-Bari of Ibn Hajar.

Source
 
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Imran Siddiqi

Minister (2k+ posts)
When Christians lost jerusalem they were debating about the Food Jesus Ate in his last supper.
Some of these discussions are like that when Ummah faces serious challenges.
I am not questioning the intention of posting this thread. Apart from having a misleading title I think we should avoid putting emotions into arguments.
Even though I agree with the notion that Prophet Muhammad has actually died and has left us and we will meet on the day of Judgement. It is true that what we see is an image from Allah SWT. We also see bad dreams and they are from Shaiytan. This is why the hadith about Seeing the prophet SAW in the dream should be explained for the masses. This hadith that mentions that if someone sees prophet muhammad SAW in a dream it means that he really saw him" should be qualified with the explanation that The description of prophet Muhammad's SAW appearance that is in Ahadith should also match. I have heard cases where people saw a clean shaved person in a dream and they were claiming that to be Prophet Muhammad. Clearly that is a dream from Shaiytan.
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
whatever coincides with salafi beliefs is reliable rest is rubbish.
Isn't it?

Only one sahih hadees can tear apart all of your rants but i am in no mood to argue with a jaahil
 

PakArt

Citizen
Besides this extremely simplistic and almost silly explanation that two people can't see the Prophet (May peace be upon him) at the same time, have you ever heard of quantum mechanics? A quantum physicist will debunk this silly argument in a flash let alone a sane person with basic religious knowledge.
 

30-Maar Khan

Senator (1k+ posts)
whatever coincides with salafi beliefs is reliable rest is rubbish.
Isn't it?

Only one sahih hadees can tear apart all of your rants but i am in no mood to argue with a jaahil

Hehehe....And you will not share that Sahi Hadith because you are not in the mood. If that was case then who had forced you to do this post then?...

I know the reason that you have nothing to say because all your group has lost the plot based on Daleel. You people are just living on emotions, traditions and self explantions (which is mostly full of lies) of Quran and Hadiths.
 

Zesh Zeshu

Senator (1k+ posts)
I have nothing to do with this debate my concerns are My Prayers ,Believing Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as last prophet and fullfulling the rights of People ,
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Hehehe....And you will not share that Sahi Hadith because you are not in the mood. If that was case then who had forced you to do this post then?...

I know the reason that you have nothing to say because all your group has lost the plot based on Daleel. You people are just living on emotions, traditions and self explantions (which is mostly full of lies) of Quran and Hadiths.

ok go and pick sahih bukhari if you have one.
Search the hadees of an old sahabi Seeing Rasool Ullah on the time of martyrdom of Imam Hussain.
Rasool Ullah Saww was sad, beard was in dust.
Was collecting the blood of Imam Hussain and followers.

Go search for it.
If you cant find it out of your misery.
Come back.
I will give the reference
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Besides this extremely simplistic and almost silly explanation that two people can't see the Prophet (May peace be upon him) at the same time, have you ever heard of quantum mechanics? A quantum physicist will debunk this silly argument in a flash let alone a sane person with basic religious knowledge.

woahhhh Quantum mechanics?
You arr talking blasphemy,.

Work of satan.
Say kalma again you infidel.
 

cheetah

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Important thing is follow the teachings of Islam rather than going for arguments on non issues
 

30-Maar Khan

Senator (1k+ posts)
ok go and pick sahih bukhari if you have one.
Search the hadees of an old sahabi Seeing Rasool Ullah on the time of martyrdom of Imam Hussain.
Rasool Ullah Saww was sad, beard was in dust.
Was collecting the blood of Imam Hussain and followers.

Go search for it.
If you cant find it out of your misery.
Come back.
I will give the reference



I know this Hadith. U don't need to give me the resference for it. He was Hazrat Abdullah ibne Abbas RA, the cousin of Aap pbuh. But what are you trying to prove from it?
 

Pakistani1947

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I know this Hadith. U don't need to give me the resference for it. He was Hazrat Abdullah ibne Abbas RA, the cousin of Aap pbuh. But what are you trying to prove from it?

Hadith: Sayyidah Salmaa reported that she went to Sayyidah Umm Salamah (RA) and found her weeping. She asked her what made her weep. She said: I saw Allah’s Messenger (salallaho alaihi wasalam) in my dream. There was dust on his head and beard. I asked him, What is wrong with you, O Messenger of Allah?. He said: I have just witnessed Husayn’s murder [Sunnan Al Tirimdhi Hadith No. 3796] – Imam Tirimdhi declared this Hadith as (hasan)
gharib.
source

Also, Its weak as per Albaani and Ahmed Shakir in their verification of this hadith.

 
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30-Maar Khan

Senator (1k+ posts)

Hadith: Sayyidah Salmaa reported that she went to Sayyidah Umm Salamah (RA) and found her weeping. She asked her what made her weep. She said: I saw Allah’s Messenger (salallaho alaihi wasalam) in my dream. There was dust on his head and beard. I asked him, What is wrong with you, O Messenger of Allah?. He said: I have just witnessed Husayn’s murder [Sunnan Al Tirimdhi Hadith No. 3796] – Imam Tirimdhi declared this Hadith as (hasan)
gharib.
source

Also, Its weak as per Albaani and Ahmed Shakir in their verification of this hadith.


Brother the Hadith I was quoting was from Masnad-e-Ahmad #2165 (Vol. 1, Page 242) with the reference of Hazrat Ibne Abbas RA and that is Sahi Hadith but I am still wondering that what he wants to prove from it?
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)

Hadith: Sayyidah Salmaa reported that she went to Sayyidah Umm Salamah (RA) and found her weeping. She asked her what made her weep. She said: I saw Allah’s Messenger (salallaho alaihi wasalam) in my dream. There was dust on his head and beard. I asked him, What is wrong with you, O Messenger of Allah?. He said: I have just witnessed Husayn’s murder [Sunnan Al Tirimdhi Hadith No. 3796] – Imam Tirimdhi declared this Hadith as (hasan)
gharib.
source

Also, Its weak as per Albaani and Ahmed Shakir in their verification of this hadith.


Every hadees against salafi belief will be termed weak.

this is how weak you are in your arguments
 

Pakistani1947

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Every hadees against salafi belief will be termed weak.

this is how weak you are in your arguments

It is not me Imam Tirmdhi himself declared this Hadith as "Ghareeb".

I do not associate myself with any sect as it is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam.

The Glorious Qur'an says :

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ ۚ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْعَلُونَ
Yusuf Ali 159: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. [Al-Qur'an 6:159]
جنہوں نے اپنے دین کو ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر دیا اور کئی جماعتیں بن گئے تیرا ان سے کوئی تعلق نہیں اس کا کام الله ہی کے حوالے ہے پھر وہی انہیں بتلائے گا جو کچھ وہ کرتے تھے


My thread and comments were towards main stream Muslims!

I never got any reasonable answers from a Shia regarding following questions yet:


Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?

Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?

Please make sure you give the explicit (clear) verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It is not me Imam Tirmdhi himself declared this Hadith as "Ghareeb".

I do not associate myself with any sect as it is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam.

The Glorious Qur'an says :

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ ۚ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْعَلُونَ
Yusuf Ali 159: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. [Al-Qur'an 6:159]
جنہوں نے اپنے دین کو ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر دیا اور کئی جماعتیں بن گئے تیرا ان سے کوئی تعلق نہیں اس کا کام الله ہی کے حوالے ہے پھر وہی انہیں بتلائے گا جو کچھ وہ کرتے تھے


My thread and comments were towards main stream Muslims!

I never got any reasonable answers from a Shia regarding following questions yet:


Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?

Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?

Please make sure you give the explicit (clear) verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

I ask u where is the doctrine of imamat of a normal namaz even in Quran?
Where is the doctrine of the Mullah in Quran
 

Ali raza babar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It is not me Imam Tirmdhi himself declared this Hadith as "Ghareeb".

I do not associate myself with any sect as it is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam.

The Glorious Qur'an says :

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ ۚ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْعَلُونَ
Yusuf Ali 159: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. [Al-Qur'an 6:159]
جنہوں نے اپنے دین کو ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر دیا اور کئی جماعتیں بن گئے تیرا ان سے کوئی تعلق نہیں اس کا کام الله ہی کے حوالے ہے پھر وہی انہیں بتلائے گا جو کچھ وہ کرتے تھے


My thread and comments were towards main stream Muslims!

I never got any reasonable answers from a Shia regarding following questions yet:


Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?

Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?

Please make sure you give the explicit (clear) verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

O and by mainstream you mean Muslims that dont even know the Abjad of Quran.
. Sorry i aint that mainstream
 

Pakistani1947

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
O and by mainstream you mean Muslims that dont even know the Abjad of Quran.
. Sorry i aint that mainstream

Thanks for the response. I was not expecting any answer for the basic Question 12er Shia Immamat Doctrine anyway. No Shia has ever given me any satisfactory answer to Immamat questions I raised, they would either put forward a counter question or just try beat around the bushes. Such a fragile pillar of faith on which whole Shia Immamat Doctrine is standing!
 

karachiwala

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
ok go and pick sahih bukhari if you have one.
Search the hadees of an old sahabi Seeing Rasool Ullah on the time of martyrdom of Imam Hussain.
Rasool Ullah Saww was sad, beard was in dust.
Was collecting the blood of Imam Hussain and followers.

Go search for it.
If you cant find it out of your misery.
Come back.
I will give the reference


why quote Bukhari when you people DO NOT believe in Hadith? you believe in the sayings of your Imams which 99% fabricated.