Hamza Ali Abassi seems to know nothing about "Ahmedis"

[shaikh]

It is a pity that our newer generation and not so new generation has failed to grasp some basics and know nothing of real political history of Pakistan.

This Ramazan season is seeing some of the worst violations of overall piety and sanctity of Ramazan with some private channels not taking into account Ramazan somberness . These days typically a religious programme would in its break have people men and women dancing like sikhs in advertisements . Then there is phenomenon of Geo TV /Jang chief performer who makes fun into anything , for him every thing can be converted to a mela.

The worst of all has been a psycho looking Hamza Ali Abassi picking up Ramzan for making a case for ahmedis in the form of opening question answers about them . Amazingly Lead Misguiders and papers like DAWN did have the "jurat" of reporting support for that confused chap or rather acting confused to earn from some Anti islam lobby.

Ahmedis were even before legislation in 1974 not considered Muslims by most Muslims as they had a prophet cum jesus reborn of their own (Mirza Ghulam Ahmed) and their doctrine was that those who do not believe in that jesus reborn or rather "Maseeh Mahood" were themselves non Muslims .

Since they were slow in revealing their true views of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and their stated beliefs did not crystallize till nearly late 1930's so early on Iqbal 's father too supported them. Illama Iqbal himself appointed their Khalifa to help in jammu muslim refugee relief in the 1920s but later he realized that they are not what they showed and probably sidelined them . Ahmedis therefore did not like Iqbal.

Though this is not the main reason , but one reason for jinnah's failure in curbing influence of Sheikh Abdullah in Kashmir and indirectly loss of kashmir to Pakistan was his not removing a Qadiani as representing Muslim league as head in Kashmir before partition . People objected to this which was not heeded . On the other hand Sheikh Abdullah had an excellent voice and rose to prominence in the 1920s in public gatherings because of Naats etc.This made for a contrast. Abdullah seems influenced by his somewhat prowest ideas wife who had peculiar background. These are best described in book by mother of late Salman Taseer,

Hamza Ali Abassi has actually hurt the sentiments of Muslims in trying to legitimize the discussion of some thing which is a closed transaction , that it is 100% true that Ahmedis are not Muslims , they have not muhammedans , they are Mirzais followers of mirza Ghulam Ahmed

PMLN government and PEMRA has done correct thing by banning this man from media .

The situation is well explained by Orya Maqbool

 

[lurker]

1400 years later... Muslims are still debating who is a muslim and who is not. Incompetency of the highest order. Belief systems of governance are so weak.

 

[Respect]

It would have been better for sound scholar to come on TV and explain to Hamza Abbassi the situation, I am sure he wud have understood inshallah.

 

[fawad ali]

I fully support Hamza Abbassi. These Mullahs claim that Ahmedi's are 'wajib ul Qatal'. I have seen Dr. Israr's video where he claims Ahmedis should be killed. I have seen another video of Orya Maqbool jan where he says it is fine to rape women after winning a battle. These ideologies have no place in today's world.

 

[_Dictator_]

جب معاشرے میں قحط الرجال ہوجائے تو اوریا بدبودار جیسے فارغ الشعور لوگ قوم کے واعظ بن جاتے ہیں۔

 

[shaikh]

I fully support Hamza Abbassi. These Mullahs claim that Ahmedi's are 'wajib ul Qatal'. I have seen Dr. Israr's video where he claims Ahmedis should be killed. I have seen another video of Orya Maqbool jan where he says it is fine to rape women after winning a battle. These ideologies have no place in today's world.

To support Hamza Abassi means you either do not understand the issue or you are getting yourself out of Islam altogether. Ahmedis have a prophet of their own and khalafat of their own , they do not consider us Muslims . About Wajib ul Qatl I do not know but Dr.Israr was no small scholar and he was a major Islamic ideologue of our times.

Ahmedis especially Rabwah brand believe that Mirza was Jesus reborn . I must remind you that Jesus reborn or jesus's return is a mainly Christian theme very popular in Churches. Ahmedis call him Maseeh Mahood .

Ahmedis with superficial appearances of a Muslim but with no belief in finality of prophethood of Muhammed is their hallmark .

If you care to study their latest pronouncements by their khalifa on you tube , it becomes clear they are not islamic folks , they have this concept of all saintly people or ascetics or even philosophers be they completely outside Islam or even other Abrahamic faiths of having been blessed with some thing like prophethood. So Guru Nanik is also eligible if not declared so by them and so can any other hindu of later day , might even declare Gandhi as prophet in future years . They have that flexibility.

Prophet hood of Islam especially main stream Sunni islam is a great office bestowed by Allah . But Modern day Christians do not have that lofty concept of prophethood , they tend to trivialize prophethood and Mirza Ghulam seemed to get this infection from them.

In summary Ahmedis are negation of Muhammedanism or Islam and resemble more a generic spiritualist of some type and were heavily supported by western powers from day one . Their main focus of mischief in Black Muslim Africa where they have a patchy presence.

I feel that Hamza Abassi is putting Qadianis in physical risk again by discussing them . For Muslims prophet and his greatness and last prophet is more dear than his own parents so Admedis are basically negating that.

Were he not of younger age , Hamza Ali Abassi could actually have been killed for his stupid view , he knows that and has retracted it but he is danger in my view .

The producer who allowed this boy actor to talk on sensitive and emotional aspects of religion also need to be booked and put behind bars .

 

[shaikh]

1400 years later... Muslims are still debating who is a muslim and who is not. Incompetency of the highest order. Belief systems of governance are so weak.

You are wrong on that count. There is no real debate . Every thing is settled .


There were isolated places enclosed by nature or some other reason where correct views of things in Islam could not reach. This along with interaction with other religions produced some bizarre concepts. Then there was whole body of spiritualists , jugglers , Yogis , Ascetics , philosophers , and Munafakeen who had to be dealt with , some declaring prophethood of their own , some trying to modify Islam in order to magnify themselves.

So from time to time these wild plants had to be sorted and separated out .

Before they were declared non muslims Ahmedis were coming nearer and nearer to power and taking over Pakistan one day , now they are dying breed.

 

[lurker]

Let's take your analogy to other major religion of the world. A Christian can say the same thing about Islam that you have said about Qadiyanism/Ahmedism. One can say Islam is a derivative of Christianity which is a derivative of Judaism which is probably a derivative of something else.

Derivatives of Islam will exist and many already do exist. Babism is a derivative of Shiite Islam. ZenSunnism is a Derivative of Sunni/Buddhism. Qadiyanism/Ahmedism is another derivative of Sunni Islam.

You can argue all you want that these derivatives are NOT Islam, but they are derived from Islam. That much is certain is it not?

You are wrong on that count. There is no real debate . Every thing is settled .


There were isolated places enclosed by nature or some other reason where correct views of things in Islam could not reach. This along with interaction with other religions produced some bizarre concepts. Then there was whole body of spiritualists , jugglers , Yogis , Ascetics , philosophers , and Munafakeen who had to be dealt with , some declaring prophethood of their own , some trying to modify Islam in order to magnify themselves.

So from time to time these wild plants had to be sorted and separated out .

Before they were declared non muslims Ahmedis were coming nearer and nearer to power and taking over Pakistan one day , now they are dying breed.

 

[shaikh]

Let's take your analogy to other major religion of the world. A Christian can say the same thing about Islam that you have said about Qadiyanism/Ahmedism. One can say Islam is a derivative of Christianity which is a derivative of Judaism which is probably a derivative of something else.

Derivatives of Islam will exist and many already do exist. Babism is a derivative of Shiite Islam. ZenSunnism is a Derivative of Sunni/Buddhism. Qadiyanism/Ahmedism is another derivative of Sunni Islam.

You can argue all you want that these derivatives are NOT Islam, but they are derived from Islam. That much is certain is it not?

Again not right , Islam is a very simple religion devoid of overlays of Jews upon themselves without sanction of God and devoid of trinity of Christianity . Christianity in my view is not a religion at all , jesus was a jews who wanted to reform Jewish religion which jewish clergy was not prepared to accept , ultimately it was separated from Jewish line formally by inventing Trinity . There is no rational explanation of combining new and old testament in bible unless jesus was a prophet and not God or God's son . If he were a God's son then why his book is attached to that of a Man Moses in Bible. These are different classes are they not . So original Christian faith would have been without trinity and it was so .

There is no real Zen Buddhism , the variants of Islam are mostly those with Sufi /Saint tinge carried to extreme unislamic extent by followers .

Admedis are not variant of sunnis , they are variant of Christians as they put all their luck into belief that Mirza was Jesus reborn , Maseeh Mahood , which is primarily a popular belief in Christian churches , "Jesus will come soon" as they say . Christians are some what vague about demise of jesus and Islamic belief that Jesus did not die on the cross are also supported by some Christian scriptures indirectly .

Unfortunately such claims of nearness of GOD is made by many . In 1800 there were three such characters , The Mehdi of Sudan , the odd character of founder of Bahai faith in Iran (Musharaf stuff as some claim) and this Mirza . Mehdi did not live long and so not much legacy . Mehdis however survived for a while.

In the beginning local Muslims mistook Mirza Ghulam Ahmed for a new saint or Guru , but gradually it became clear he is trying to found something closer to a new religion , his followers it seems took it further and by 1930s it had become clear it is not Islam but a synthetic religion using Christian principles and Messiah and using local culture of Punjab. He was trying to hijack Islam and cast it into outer cover of Christianity using British Patronage to prolong empire . A bit like deen Ilahi of Akbar except that in that case Hinduism had to be accommodated.

Finally Mirza followers were formally kicked out of Islam world wide starting with Pakistan and this Christianity variant cooked in Muslim earthen ware pots made its centres in London and Germany.

Mirza reportedly wrote a letter to queen Victoria assuring her of his loyality , may be needed as other Mehdi of Sudan was killing British lest he too is put in hell of bullet .

 

[lurker]

I don't know how you can claim Ahmedism is not an offshoot of Sunni Islam, when it is apparent from Ahmedi texts that they "Plagiarize" heavily from Sunni Islam. Ironically like how many Christians say the same thing about Islam plagiarizing from Christianity and then the Jews saying the same about Christianity and Islam. Islam gets around this by proclaiming that it recognizes every Abrahamic faith before it. Just like again ironically Ahmedis proclaim they recognize ALL Abrahamic faiths including Islam before itself. I know.. if you dig into this you will see the History of religion is filled with marvelous ironies that the devout simply refuse to see.

I am not here to debate the merits of which Religion is sound and which one is a far cry; I am simply stating that Religion is an evolving beast. It has been doing this since the beginning of organized human communion. What do you think happened to the Greek Gods? Roman Gods? Caananite Gods? They didn't just drop off the face of the planet. They were absorbed. Beaten by better Gods.

Today you are dealing with Ahmedis. Perhaps tomorrow you will have to deal with Qandeel Balochis? lol. Nobody comes up with an original Religion; they are all based of some other one.

Again not right , Islam is a very simple religion devoid of overlays of Jews upon themselves without sanction of God and devoid of trinity of Christianity . Christianity in my view is not a religion at all , jesus was a jews who wanted to reform Jewish religion which jewish clergy was not prepared to accept , ultimately it was separated from Jewish line formally by inventing Trinity . There is no rational explanation of combining new and old testament in bible unless jesus was a prophet and not God or God's son . If he were a God's son then why his book is attached to that of a Man Moses in Bible. These are different classes are they not . So original Christian faith would have been without trinity and it was so .

There is no real Zen Buddhism , the variants of Islam are mostly those with Sufi /Saint tinge carried to extreme unislamic extent by followers .

Admedis are not variant of sunnis , they are variant of Christians as they put all their luck into belief that Mirza was Jesus reborn , Maseeh Mahood , which is primarily a popular belief in Christian churches , "Jesus will come soon" as they say . Christians are some what vague about demise of jesus and Islamic belief that Jesus did not die on the cross are also supported by some Christian scriptures indirectly .

Unfortunately such claims of nearness of GOD is made by many . In 1800 there were three such characters , The Mehdi of Sudan , the odd character of founder of Bahai faith in Iran (Musharaf stuff as some claim) and this Mirza . Mehdi did not live long and so not much legacy . Mehdis however survived for a while.

In the beginning local Muslims mistook Mirza Ghulam Ahmed for a new saint or Guru , but gradually it became clear he is trying to found something closer to a new religion , his followers it seems took it further and by 1930s it had become clear it is not Islam but a synthetic religion using Christian principles and Messiah and using local culture of Punjab. He was trying to hijack Islam and cast it into outer cover of Christianity using British Patronage to prolong empire . A bit like deen Ilahi of Akbar except that in that case Hinduism had to be accommodated.

Finally Mirza followers were formally kicked out of Islam world wide starting with Pakistan and this Christianity variant cooked in Muslim earthen ware pots made its centres in London and Germany.

Mirza reportedly wrote a letter to queen Victoria assuring her of his loyality , may be needed as other Mehdi of Sudan was killing British lest he too is put in hell of bullet .

 

[shaikh]

I don't know how you can claim Ahmedism is not an offshoot of Sunni Islam, when it is apparent from Ahmedi texts that they "Plagiarize" heavily from Sunni Islam. Ironically like how many Christians say the same thing about Islam plagiarizing from Christianity and then the Jews saying the same about Christianity and Islam. Islam gets around this by proclaiming that it recognizes every Abrahamic faith before it. Just like again ironically Ahmedis proclaim they recognize ALL Abrahamic faiths including Islam before itself. I know.. if you dig into this you will see the History of religion is filled with marvelous ironies that the devout simply refuse to see.

I am not here to debate the merits of which Religion is sound and which one is a far cry; I am simply stating that Religion is an evolving beast. It has been doing this since the beginning of organized human communion. What do you think happened to the Greek Gods? Roman Gods? Caananite Gods? They didn't just drop off the face of the planet. They were absorbed. Beaten by better Gods.

Today you are dealing with Ahmedis. Perhaps tomorrow you will have to deal with Qandeel Balochis? lol. Nobody comes up with an original Religion; they are all based of some other one.

Your concept of religion is based on Athiestic and anthropological theories I must say . I must however add that :

I) You have the choice to convert to Qandeel Balochi not us, we seriously believe in afterlife and day of resurrection and in finality of prophethood of Muhammed as our guide..

II) Christianity is not a religion and I have explained above , new testament is composed of several books and there is considerable repetition so material is little , there is not much for Islam to copy.

III) The "evolving beast " type of religions are no religions , for some thing to fit the definition of religion in Islam there has to be a prophet and sanction of God and some practices dating to that person , so hinduism and some ancient practices have no such characteristic.

IV) Ahmedis believe that Mirza was by extension, the "Promised One" of all religions fulfilling eschatological prophecies found in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions, as well as Zoroastrianism, the Indian religions, Native American traditions and others


The Community also regards Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius as prophets. Thus, according to the Ahmadi teachings, books outside of the Abrahamic tradition, such as the Vedas and Avesta are too considered as being of divine origin


Contrary to mainstream Islamic belief, Ahmadis believe that Jesus was crucified and survived the four hours on the cross. He was later revived from a swoon in the tomb.


Ahmadis believe that Jesus died in Kashmir of old age whilst seeking the Lost Tribes of Israel. Jesus' remains are believed to be entombed in Kashmir under the name Yuz Asaf. In particular, it is believed that the biblical and the Islamic prophecies concerning the second coming of Jesus were metaphorical in nature and not literal, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled in his person these prophecies and the second advent of Jesus.
Ahmedis beliefs fit NGO type religions not Islam . Islam is not only Muhahammedinism but without Muhammedinism there is no Islam after propeht of Islam came into field .

V) Almost all beliefs of Ahmedis suited the British and the present NGO culture supported by the west
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad rendered Jihad in its military form as inapplicable in the present age as Islam
He declared he is the promised Messiah and that all the major world religions had divine origins which would sound music to many false religions and cults of the world

So Ahmedis should be regarded as a version of Christianity not Islam , Islam does not accept all nonsense written and practised in the world as divine unlike Ahmedis who accept all books and religions .

A Ahmedi was proudly telling me that Christian priests in Africa are told not to enter into argument with Ahmedis because they know Messiah is concept more of Christianity than islam and they are happy to let them be classified with Muslim lest they divide Christianity as Ahmedis are essentially marketing a second Jesus . In the past they clearly used word Maseeh Maood for their Mirza , lately to confuse Islam they are using it seems less from some descriptions and are more into Pan Religion , meaning own every cult with followers , true or false it may be .

 

[lurker]

Your concept of religion is based on Athiestic and anthropological theories I must say

I don't know about God's plan. But if you can see the Earth move through space and time; you will see the concepts of such things like Religion seem incredibly trivial. I think Religion has its uses. Perhaps it modifies brain chemistry to give religious people a higher survival chance? I don't know. Religious people do tend to produce more children; which is what all life on this planet is all about.

The Quran speaks about the Bible. What Bible is the Quran speaking of?

There are religion on this planet which are for the lack of a better term, "Non-Prophet" organizations. :P

The Qadiyanis/Ahmedis are more in line with Sunni Islam. As in they have the same 5 pillars of Islam. The 6 articles of faith. They accept the Quran. They face the Kaaba. Practice the Sunnah. The difference is Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. The rest of the divergence is there even in Sufism and a few other sects of Islam.

I don't mean to say that Ahmedism is indeed Islam or that it is a sect of Islam; I am saying Ahmedism is a derivative of Sunni Islam.

 

[shaikh]

I don't know about God's plan. But if you can see the Earth move through space and time; you will see the concepts of such things like Religion seem incredibly trivial. I think Religion has its uses. Perhaps it modifies brain chemistry to give religious people a higher survival chance? I don't know. Religious people do tend to produce more children; which is what all life on this planet is all about.

The Quran speaks about the Bible. What Bible is the Quran speaking of?

There are religion on this planet which are for the lack of a better term, "Non-Prophet" organizations. :P

The Qadiyanis/Ahmedis are more in line with Sunni Islam. As in they have the same 5 pillars of Islam. The 6 articles of faith. They accept the Quran. They face the Kaaba. Practice the Sunnah. The difference is Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. The rest of the divergence is there even in Sufism and a few other sects of Islam.

I don't mean to say that Ahmedism is indeed Islam or that it is a sect of Islam; I am saying Ahmedism is a derivative of Sunni Islam.

Ahmedism is derivative of Christianity not Islam because it relied on concept popular with Christians , "Maseeh Maood" . From day one to todate it is supported by British .

Christians avoid discussing Ahmedias as sect of Christians as that tends to divide them because return of jesus is their concept .

Allow me to share one interesting thing , I knew Admediat well since childhood as the area my parents came from had plenty of them . When i look at their websites now , they seem to have slightly modified their terminology and are talking less of Maseeh maood lest they are correctly classified with Christians .

As Qadianis rate all faiths as equal , believe in non abrahamic books , so they are devoid of any value of their own . It is as I say NGO type religion .

This Ramazan under a plan sanctity and somberness of Ramazan was destroyed using private channels . Issues like Qandeel , Qadianis .

When Quran speaks of bible it refers to code given to Isa the prophet originally .

Many religions of world are combination of superstition , ancestor worship , human sacrifices.

Only one religion other than Islam has a known real pedigree that is jewish faith .

just because mirza ghulam ahmed could not dare to produce his holy books does not mean he is offshoot of islam , just because people could not imagine a full fledged prophet out of this man does not mean he had no intention to fool himself and others .

Dangers of Sufism and Shiasm you correctly identified , these non islamic doctrines allow Mirzais to find a place to breathe openly and challenge us.

 

[lurker]

Isn't the concept of Messiah and the Return of Jesus a Sunni Islam concept as well?

From an anthropological view point even Islam seems like an evolution of ideas. It is not unique. Or its uniqueness is as unique as any other religion in the world claims to be. From a religious standpoint of Islam, obviously you will *believe* so it is unique and the true religion of a true God. But on the grand tapestry of Time, all the religion of the world have existed only since the time modern humans came into existence; which has less than %0.001 of the history of the world's existence. These are in those standards very new concepts and subject to further evolution. Change is the ONLY constant in this universe.

Ahmedism is derivative of Christianity not Islam because it relied on concept popular with Christians , "Maseeh Maood" . From day one to todate it is supported by British .

Christians avoid discussing Ahmedias as sect of Christians as that tends to divide them because return of jesus is their concept .

Allow me to share one interesting thing , I knew Admediat well since childhood as the area my parents came from had plenty of them . When i look at their websites now , they seem to have slightly modified their terminology and are talking less of Maseeh maood lest they are correctly classified with Christians .

As Qadianis rate all faiths as equal , believe in non abrahamic books , so they are devoid of any value of their own . It is as I say NGO type religion .

This Ramazan under a plan sanctity and somberness of Ramazan was destroyed using private channels . Issues like Qandeel , Qadianis .

When Quran speaks of bible it refers to code given to Isa the prophet originally .

Many religions of world are combination of superstition , ancestor worship , human sacrifices.

Only one religion other than Islam has a known real pedigree that is jewish faith .

just because mirza ghulam ahmed could not dare to produce his holy books does not mean he is offshoot of islam , just because people could not imagine a full fledged prophet out of this man does not mean he had no intention to fool himself and others .

Dangers of Sufism and Shiasm you correctly identified , these non islamic doctrines allow Mirzais to find a place to breathe openly and challenge us.

 

[shaikh]

Isn't the concept of Messiah and the Return of Jesus a Sunni Islam concept as well?

From an anthropological view point even Islam seems like an evolution of ideas. It is not unique. Or its uniqueness is as unique as any other religion in the world claims to be. From a religious standpoint of Islam, obviously you will *believe* so it is unique and the true religion of a true God. But on the grand tapestry of Time, all the religion of the world have existed only since the time modern humans came into existence; which has less than %0.001 of the history of the world's existence. These are in those standards very new concepts and subject to further evolution. Change is the ONLY constant in this universe.

Arabs were into idol worship so badly that if allowed to evolve , it should have progressed to some new wooden god.

One reason you will not find so many atheists amongst serious biological scientists despite so firm a theory of evolution is that in science a good scientist cannot imagine any thing happening just by random and time given of there is no guiding intellect and plan behind.

Quran has no reference to ideas propounded by Ahmedis.If prophet is saying in final sermons that I am leaving a book for guidance , then there is no firm reason to believe that some person is to follow as well.

Ideas of world without creator and religion just as evolutionary idea is not taken by serious people of science for reason explained above as progress just because of mass , heat and time is not palatable in science , it needs intellect and power to make things.

Admedi faith accepts all books like vedas etc and all gurus as God given , in otherwords it has no values of its own . Unlike prophets of Bible and Quran , with life of rigor and efforts Mirza had lived a secure life under British . Mirza cannot be called a prophet or Muslim , he can be called a scholar preparing some compilation from different faiths and trying to form some religion , the misfortune is that it happened in Muslim lands . Ideas he used were Christian mostly. So you cannot call it religion either , Ahmediya is a cult based on some confused collection of ideas .

 

[lurker]

Science and a Good Scientist welcomes anyone to come and break its principles - With proof and logic. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is where ALL religion fails. And All scientists must come to terms of the incompatibility of Science and Religion. The Theory of Evolution does not hinge upon Random or Chance; instead it's linchpin is Natural Selection. Natural Selection is not random.

There is No harm in asking the Question of intelligent design, but the answer should not be entertained unless there is sound credible proof and logic behind it - atleast in a scientific setting.

Coming to the part about the Mahdi, it is not mentioned in the Quran. It is mentioned in some hadiths. And there in lies the problem. Hadiths are word of mouth. No matter how many times I hear the Ulema talk about "Hadith Sciences" I don't buy them fully. There is little science to He Said, She Said stuff. Word of Mouth is not a 100% science. Perhaps if the Ulema was so mathematical as to compute a "Confidence Level" next to each Hadith, we can plot a more mathematical and empircal approach to Hadiths. But it can never really be 100% unless the Prophet(Saw) himself sat down and proof read His own Hadiths. Which He did not.

So this would mean in Summary; the Quran kept up its part of the bargain and is sound, Complete and Constant all over the world. The hadiths let sects like Ahmadiya slip in. Bahai Faith also and few 10 more who just wanted to join the party. The Hadiths dropped the ball so to speak. Perhaps I am being too harsh here, The Hadiths are just compilations. Perhaps the REAL culprits here are the Ulema who never nipped the problem in the bud so to speak. And Today the Ulema are non-existent. Each one of us is a Mufti. lol.

One reason you will not find so many atheists amongst serious biological scientists despite so firm a theory of evolution is that in science a good scientist cannot imagine any thing happening just by random and time given of there is no guiding intellect and plan behind.

 

[SachGoee]

Arabs were into idol worship so badly that if allowed to evolve , it should have progressed to some new wooden god.

One reason you will not find so many atheists amongst serious biological scientists despite so firm a theory of evolution is that in science a good scientist cannot imagine any thing happening just by random and time given of there is no guiding intellect and plan behind.

Quran has no reference to ideas propounded by Ahmedis.If prophet is saying in final sermons that I am leaving a book for guidance , then there is no firm reason to believe that some person is to follow as well.

Ideas of world without creator and religion just as evolutionary idea is not taken by serious people of science for reason explained above as progress just because of mass , heat and time is not palatable in science , it needs intellect and power to make things.

Admedi faith accepts all books like vedas etc and all gurus as God given , in otherwords it has no values of its own . Unlike prophets of Bible and Quran , with life of rigor and efforts Mirza had lived a secure life under British . Mirza cannot be called a prophet or Muslim , he can be called a scholar preparing some compilation from different faiths and trying to form some religion , the misfortune is that it happened in Muslim lands . Ideas he used were Christian mostly. So you cannot call it religion either , Ahmediya is a cult based on some confused collection of ideas .

This is why Koi Maee ka Laal nai tha poori Dunya mein jo Eesaee Paadrioun ko Aaryaoun ko Shikast dey sakta Manaazroun mein ? Fatwa Factory tub kahan thee ? ? Kuffar k fatway Shaaya ker rai hogee ?? Islam k difaa ko tub Kon aaya tha ? Thori see history perh lein aor Mullah ki tohfay mein di hui aenak utaarein.


1894 mein kyun aor k iskay liye ramzan mein Allah ne Suraj aor Chaand ko Garehan lagaya ? Agar hadees jhooti thee tou Allah ne sach kyun Saabit ki ? ?


Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS se pehlay jo 29 Jhootay Nabi aaey 1400 saal mein wo Sub Nishaan e Ibrat bana diye Allah ne. Unka Koi naam Lewa nai aaj. Koi aik nai aaj jo kahay k mein un mein se kisi aik ko maanta hun aor wo mera religion. Kyun ? Allah ne kyun unkay silsaloun ko neest o nabood ker diya ? Aaj Kon hai jo musallima Kazzab ko Nabi maanta ? Hai Koi zinda ? Aaj Kon hai jo Alexander dowee ko Nabi maanta ? Hai Koi zinda ? ? Phir Allah ko kya zarurat perhee k agar Mirza Ghulam Ahmed jhoota nabi tou uska b woi haal na kerta jo pehloun ka ? Uskay maan ne waaloun ka b woi haal kertay jo 29 jhootay nabioun k maan ne waaloun ka kiya ? ?

1880 mein Allah se Mukhaatiba Mukaalma ka claim kerta hai phir kyun 23 saal se zayada area ye shakhs zinda raha iss k baad agar jhoota tha tou ? Jo 29 jhootay guzray aik b 23 saal tak zinda raha Allah se Mukhaatiba Mukaalma k claim k baad ? ?


Agar jhoota Imam Mehdi tha tou hadees k mutabiq jub iss ne Talwaar k Jehaad ko suspend kiya Allah k hukum se tou phir kyun uss k baad se jub bhee musalmaan ne mazhab k naam pe Talwaar uthaee hai Jehaad ka naam le k tou musalmaan ko kyun hazeematt aor nakaam I uthaani perhi hai ? Agar jhoota imam Mehdi tha aor nai kiya Allah ne mazhab k naam pe Talwaar ka Jehaad mansookh tou phir kyun Allah pehlay jehaadoun ki tarah kamyaabian nai deta ? ?

Kyun jo Qalam ka Jehaad ker rahay wo Europe America Australia Canada mein Masjidein bana paaey kyun dunya mein 16000 Masjidein hein ? Kyun 95 zubaanoun mein Quran ka tarjuma ker chukay ? Q 3 channels 25 se zayada radio channels se Islam ki tableegh ker paa rahay ? Q 206 mulkoun mein phel gaey ?

Ab ye na kehna k Eesaeeoun ka Peda hai iss liye. Unka tou hum ne khuda maara hua jesay Khudda e Saani kehtay. Hum ne kya maarna Quran mein Allah khud kehtay He AS is dead. Allah ne Wafaat di na hum ne. Wo tou uska intazaar ker re hum keh re wo Wafaat Paa gaey. Yahoodioun ka Poda na kehna. Jiska wo inTazaar ker re Aakhri dourrr hum kehtay wo nai aaey ga. Aor Musalmaanoun k tamaam aqaid jin se yahoodi agree nai kertay Khaas ker k ahl e sunnat k wo hamaray aqaid. Hindouon ka Poda na kehna werna Khalifa Nehru aor Gandhi ki maantay aor hijrat na kertay.

Agar Allah k hukum se Talwaar ka Jehaad Mansookh kiya iska matlub ye nai k falanay ka Poda falanay ki Saazish. Agar aesi hakumatt ki ittebah ki kyun k musalmaanoun ko jis ne Mazhabi azaadi di tou iska matlub ye nai k unka Ghulam ya Poda. Sikhoun ki hakumatt mein kya Mazhabi azaadi thee musalmaanoun ko ? ? Aor aakhir angrez gaya b 1947 mein tou jamhoor ki taaqat se he gaya na k Talwaar ki tabaqat se. 1857 mein Talwaar uthaee jung ki tou Musalmaanoun ko Shikast he hui thee.

Berha Aasaan hai Cult keh dena. Cult kbi bhee peaceful nai hota. Never ever. Cult kbi bhee bezarrar nai hota.

Hazoor Pbuh ne Imam Mehdi ko apna Rohaani beta kaha aor kaha k wo Asal haqeeqi Islam ko Zinda revive keray ga again. Imam Mehdi As ne tamaam Bidaat khatam keen. Aqaid mein jo kharaabeean peda hueen wo theek keen Allah se hukum paa k. Jesa k Eesaee kehtay thay Hamara Eesa Aasmaan pe hai tumhara mohammad Pbuh zameen k neechay dafan so Kon superior ? Musalmaan bhatkay huay Aqaid he badal daalay, tarjumay gherh liye naey. Bani Israel k Nabi ko apna nabi bana liya. Usko Aasmaan pe cherha diya jissay Quran Murda keh raha. And what not.

Please watch Mta. See how many free schools, Hospitals , dispensaries, Water Plants Jamaat e Ahmadiyya is operating in Africa to help ailing Humanity. Why there ? Because we are permitted. How much Jamaat e Ahmadiyya is promoting and preaching Peaceful messafe of Islam in Europe America Australia Canada and few Arab countries where there is freedom of Religion if not than through its TV and Radio channels. See kesay Qalam ka Jehaad horaha hai ? ? And how massive Humanitarian works worth billions is being carried out all by Jamaat's own financial Jehaad done by its own members wilfully. Don't buy propaganda of Mullah k they get money from Yahood o Nasara it's all trash and baseless allegation without even a single evidence. Go and See Pakistan's best Heart Hospital in the town of Rabwah where free treatment of Poor heart patients is done irrespective of Religion background or Zaat Paat. All run by our financial sacrifices. What Mullah is doing ? Giving fatwaaz k yahan se ilaaj kerana haraam hai.

We are Serving Humanity.

When He Pbuh is targeted by WEST We write to diplomats and Head of states condemning it. We publish articles in newspapers. We potray the real beautiful face of Mohammad e Arabi Pbuh infront of the whole world by telling them His greatest character (Seerat).

When terrorists deteriorate image of Islam We defend Islam. We tell the world the peaceful teachings of Islam from Quran & Hadith.

Our Caliph has spoken at various parliaments of the world aswell as American Congress telling West to not wage wars, not to fund wars, not to disrespect sovereignty of other countries and to be Just by doing Justice. Whereas to Muslims he says Be Peaceful and those who are doing Terrorism on name of Jehaad stop this violence. Stop bloodshed all arguments speeches he does are addressed from Quranic verses, Ahadees and Islamic Shariat teachings.

What is fake Caliph Abu Bakar Baghdaadi doing in the same time and age ? ?


Ye sub Cult nai kiya kertay. Na he jhootoun ko Allah kbi b religious medaan mein kamyaabian deta hai.

 

[SachGoee]

@lurker



Is it a verse of Quran or is it a Hadith ?

And [to] others of them who have not yet joined them. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.



And can't you see with your open eyes current state of Muslim Ummah ? Why you feel that nobody had to come ? Waqt ki pukaar ho aor Allah kisi ko na bhejay ? Why ?


Pehlay 2 laakh 93000 jo Allah ne bhejay wo insaanoun se puch k bhejay thay ?


Har Qoumm mein kitne he Gher Sheraee Nabi bhejay Allah ne Sheraee Nabi k baad k Jub Qoum bhatakk jaey tou Asal taleem pe waapsi k liye again Nabi bheja jo ussi mission ko again asal rung mein zinda keray. Tou Ummat e Muhammadi kyun iss nematt se mehroom rehti ? ?


Boo Ali Seena is called Khaatam Al Attiba. Does it mean k ab dunya mein Koi scientist Koi doctor Koi philosopher nai hai ? Boo Ali Seena was last scientist ?

Habib Sheraazi is called Khaatam Us Shoaraa In Iran. Does it mean he was the last poet in the word ?

Hazur Pbuh called Hazrat Ali RA as Khaatam ul Aoliya than majority Sunneez believe that Syed Qutbuddin Ahmed was a Wali and Mujaddid of 13th century called Wali Ullah and Mohaddis e Dehalwi. If Hazrat Ali RA was last Wali on earth than how Syed Qutbuddin , Khawaja Ghulam Fareed etc etc were Wali Ullah ?


Even if you are a Shia muslim than when you pray Surah fateha in Namaz you ask Allah pray to him Allah hum pe wo nemattein naazil farma jo hum se pehloun pe.

Why you pray this to Allah agar Neymatt bund hogaee hai ?

4 neymatts Quran mentions are

the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. (4:70)


Aor jo Ehud Allah ne tamaam nabioun se liya tha He Pbuh se pehlay as mentioned in Quran wo Ehud Hazur Pbuh se kyun liya agar aap k baad kisi b kisum k Tashreehi / Non Tashreehi , Ummati / Non Ummati , Zilli Non Zilli , Sheraee / Gher Sheraee Nabi ne nai aana tha He Pbuh k baad ? ? Hona tou ye chaheeay tha k ye Ehud in last Hazrat Eesa AS letay Wafaat se pehlay than He Pbuh na letay agar wo Last thay by all means.


The Holy Quran has addressed this issue in a number of ways. Firstly, the Holy Quran informs us that God took a covenant from all his Prophets [and through them from all their followers] that they would accept the Prophet who was to follow after them, provided the Prophet that followed did not disagree with the principles of the preceding Prophet.
[In Chapter 3, Verse 82 of the Holy Quran, it is stated]:
And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him. (3:82)
This Covenant was also taken from the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) and the Holy Quran states this clearly:
And remember when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed took from them a solemn covenant. (33:8)
In other words, God is stating that He took this covenant of Prophets from all the Prophets and He is now taking this covenant from Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) Prophet of Allah. This indicates that there was a Prophet of God yet to come or this covenant should not have been taken from the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him).


Here you say that Hadees is the issue. You cannot ignore Quranic verses. You cannot Shy away that the covenant which Allah took from Prophets who will come after them why did Allah took this covenant from Prophet Mohammad Pbuh aswell if no Prophet had to come after him ? ?

 

[shaikh]

Science and a Good Scientist welcomes anyone to come and break its principles - With proof and logic. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is where ALL religion fails. And All scientists must come to terms of the incompatibility of Science and Religion. The Theory of Evolution does not hinge upon Random or Chance; instead it's linchpin is Natural Selection. Natural Selection is not random.

There is No harm in asking the Question of intelligent design, but the answer should not be entertained unless there is sound credible proof and logic behind it - atleast in a scientific setting.

Coming to the part about the Mahdi, it is not mentioned in the Quran. It is mentioned in some hadiths. And there in lies the problem. Hadiths are word of mouth. No matter how many times I hear the Ulema talk about "Hadith Sciences" I don't buy them fully. There is little science to He Said, She Said stuff. Word of Mouth is not a 100% science. Perhaps if the Ulema was so mathematical as to compute a "Confidence Level" next to each Hadith, we can plot a more mathematical and empircal approach to Hadiths. But it can never really be 100% unless the Prophet(Saw) himself sat down and proof read His own Hadiths. Which He did not.

So this would mean in Summary; the Quran kept up its part of the bargain and is sound, Complete and Constant all over the world. The hadiths let sects like Ahmadiya slip in. Bahai Faith also and few 10 more who just wanted to join the party. The Hadiths dropped the ball so to speak. Perhaps I am being too harsh here, The Hadiths are just compilations. Perhaps the REAL culprits here are the Ulema who never nipped the problem in the bud so to speak. And Today the Ulema are non-existent. Each one of us is a Mufti. lol.

You : Science and a Good Scientist welcomes anyone to come and break its principles - With proof and logic. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is where ALL religion fails.

A: What do you mean "where all religions fail" . You cannot compare Islam to religion of cattle worshipper .God of Islam as Quran explains repeatedly is Creator God , It is not the god of stories , myths . As a matter of act the definition of Islamic God is given in the opening verse

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

Even if you have no faith or religion , what can be a better definition of creator even in science than the above. This definition repudiates all partners of God , All sons of God , and essentially by stating so we separate ourselves from Christian trinity ,as well as Mythologies of partners of god be it of Hinduism or ancient Greeks . Amongst the Abrahamiac religions only Muslim God Allah fullfils this criteria .


You : And All scientists must come to terms of the incompatibility of Science and Religion. The Theory of Evolution does not hinge upon Random or Chance; instead it's linchpin is Natural Selection. Natural Selection is not random.

A: Here is a fundamental error. If you would have been so deeply into science and for so long you would realize that natural selection can only work if plan or gene were designed or allow natural selection , which brings us back to creator God , His plan and His intellect. Allah combines not just supreme intelligence but also supreme raw power.Allah is not just a sage.

Similarly the belief of next life is essentially based on two logical ideas , one that how can evil doer equate with community server and how can spirit ( individuality of senses and consciousness) die without a trace . So your saying that Science is divergent with religion is wrong , utterly wrong . Had you said instead that some ideas of religion of Islam are too logical , it would have been more correct .

You: There is No harm in asking the Question of intelligent design, but the answer should not be entertained unless there is sound credible proof and logic behind it - atleast in a scientific setting.

A: I answered that above

Coming to the part about the Mahdi, it is not mentioned in the Quran. It is mentioned in some hadiths. And there in lies the problem.

A: So if this Mahdi is not mentioned in Quran and that prophet is his last sermon is clearly stating that he leaving a book for guidance instead , what more is needed .

Besides any Mujaddid is not a Nabi , his reform has to be within limits of basic beliefs of islam . As Ahmedis derive their "Maseeh Mahod" from Christian ideas so they should be considered a variant of "synthetic Christianity" .Christianity is not a Godly religion in scientific sense , jesus was a jew and jewish reformer prophet of God, his teaching were accepted by some who were "Real Jews" or you can say followed God and were really "Muslims" but later on they added trinity , and so modern Christianity is synthetic , real Christianity existed once , but not now , what we have superadded or modified or rather "synthetic Christianity" . In a way you can say that Jesus teaching first were rightly followed by his hawaris , but later some "Mirzas" parasitized it and made a synthetic Christianity of out of it with roman influence in it.


You: Hadiths are word of mouth. No matter how many times I hear the Ulema talk about "Hadith Sciences" I don't buy them fully. There is little science to He Said, She Said stuff. Word of Mouth is not a 100% science. Perhaps if the Ulema was so mathematical as to compute a "Confidence Level" next to each Hadith, we can plot a more mathematical and empircal approach to Hadiths. But it can never really be 100% unless the Prophet(Saw) himself sat down and proof read His own Hadiths. Which He did not.

A: Depends on how you look at the issue

You : So this would mean in Summary; the Quran kept up its part of the bargain and is sound, Complete and Constant all over the world.

A: Correct

You : The hadiths let sects like Ahmadiya slip in. Bahai Faith also and few 10 more who just wanted to join the party. The Hadiths dropped the ball so to speak. Perhaps I am being too harsh here, The Hadiths are just compilations.

A: Ahmediya or Bahai are not product of loop holes in hadith , they are product of two things , mortal ordinary scholars trying to mimic prophethood awarded by Allah , and second their product suiting some local king or politics to give them refuge , in Ahmediya it was the British.

They owe their existance to philosophy separate from actual religions . The combination of high priest of old religions with meditation which found its way not in islam but in muslims from other cultures provided the substrate on which these false synthetic doctrines grew with time .

You : Perhaps the REAL culprits here are the Ulema who never nipped the problem in the bud so to speak. And Today the Ulema are non-existent. Each one of us is a Mufti. lol.

There were no ulema class as such , one historian says that ulema class was a result of conflict between Ali and Muwiya , as subsequent king caliphs were into unislamic life they gave role of Mufti and Qazi to newly created clergy to pacify public.

My advice unto you is to understand science especially biologically science more deeply and for longer

 

[shaikh]

This is why Koi Maee ka Laal nai tha poori Dunya mein jo Eesaee Paadrioun ko Aaryaoun ko Shikast dey sakta Manaazroun mein ? Fatwa Factory tub kahan thee ? ? Kuffar k fatway Shaaya ker rai hogee ?? Islam k difaa ko tub Kon aaya tha ? Thori see history perh lein aor Mullah ki tohfay mein di hui aenak utaarein.


1894 mein kyun aor k iskay liye ramzan mein Allah ne Suraj aor Chaand ko Garehan lagaya ? Agar hadees jhooti thee tou Allah ne sach kyun Saabit ki ? ?


Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS se pehlay jo 29 Jhootay Nabi aaey 1400 saal mein wo Sub Nishaan e Ibrat bana diye Allah ne. Unka Koi naam Lewa nai aaj. Koi aik nai aaj jo kahay k mein un mein se kisi aik ko maanta hun aor wo mera religion. Kyun ? Allah ne kyun unkay silsaloun ko neest o nabood ker diya ? Aaj Kon hai jo musallima Kazzab ko Nabi maanta ? Hai Koi zinda ? Aaj Kon hai jo Alexander dowee ko Nabi maanta ? Hai Koi zinda ? ? Phir Allah ko kya zarurat perhee k agar Mirza Ghulam Ahmed jhoota nabi tou uska b woi haal na kerta jo pehloun ka ? Uskay maan ne waaloun ka b woi haal kertay jo 29 jhootay nabioun k maan ne waaloun ka kiya ? ?

1880 mein Allah se Mukhaatiba Mukaalma ka claim kerta hai phir kyun 23 saal se zayada area ye shakhs zinda raha iss k baad agar jhoota tha tou ? Jo 29 jhootay guzray aik b 23 saal tak zinda raha Allah se Mukhaatiba Mukaalma k claim k baad ? ?


Agar jhoota Imam Mehdi tha tou hadees k mutabiq jub iss ne Talwaar k Jehaad ko suspend kiya Allah k hukum se tou phir kyun uss k baad se jub bhee musalmaan ne mazhab k naam pe Talwaar uthaee hai Jehaad ka naam le k tou musalmaan ko kyun hazeematt aor nakaam I uthaani perhi hai ? Agar jhoota imam Mehdi tha aor nai kiya Allah ne mazhab k naam pe Talwaar ka Jehaad mansookh tou phir kyun Allah pehlay jehaadoun ki tarah kamyaabian nai deta ? ?

Kyun jo Qalam ka Jehaad ker rahay wo Europe America Australia Canada mein Masjidein bana paaey kyun dunya mein 16000 Masjidein hein ? Kyun 95 zubaanoun mein Quran ka tarjuma ker chukay ? Q 3 channels 25 se zayada radio channels se Islam ki tableegh ker paa rahay ? Q 206 mulkoun mein phel gaey ?

Ab ye na kehna k Eesaeeoun ka Peda hai iss liye. Unka tou hum ne khuda maara hua jesay Khudda e Saani kehtay. Hum ne kya maarna Quran mein Allah khud kehtay He AS is dead. Allah ne Wafaat di na hum ne. Wo tou uska intazaar ker re hum keh re wo Wafaat Paa gaey. Yahoodioun ka Poda na kehna. Jiska wo inTazaar ker re Aakhri dourrr hum kehtay wo nai aaey ga. Aor Musalmaanoun k tamaam aqaid jin se yahoodi agree nai kertay Khaas ker k ahl e sunnat k wo hamaray aqaid. Hindouon ka Poda na kehna werna Khalifa Nehru aor Gandhi ki maantay aor hijrat na kertay.

Agar Allah k hukum se Talwaar ka Jehaad Mansookh kiya iska matlub ye nai k falanay ka Poda falanay ki Saazish. Agar aesi hakumatt ki ittebah ki kyun k musalmaanoun ko jis ne Mazhabi azaadi di tou iska matlub ye nai k unka Ghulam ya Poda. Sikhoun ki hakumatt mein kya Mazhabi azaadi thee musalmaanoun ko ? ? Aor aakhir angrez gaya b 1947 mein tou jamhoor ki taaqat se he gaya na k Talwaar ki tabaqat se. 1857 mein Talwaar uthaee jung ki tou Musalmaanoun ko Shikast he hui thee.

Berha Aasaan hai Cult keh dena. Cult kbi bhee peaceful nai hota. Never ever. Cult kbi bhee bezarrar nai hota.

Hazoor Pbuh ne Imam Mehdi ko apna Rohaani beta kaha aor kaha k wo Asal haqeeqi Islam ko Zinda revive keray ga again. Imam Mehdi As ne tamaam Bidaat khatam keen. Aqaid mein jo kharaabeean peda hueen wo theek keen Allah se hukum paa k. Jesa k Eesaee kehtay thay Hamara Eesa Aasmaan pe hai tumhara mohammad Pbuh zameen k neechay dafan so Kon superior ? Musalmaan bhatkay huay Aqaid he badal daalay, tarjumay gherh liye naey. Bani Israel k Nabi ko apna nabi bana liya. Usko Aasmaan pe cherha diya jissay Quran Murda keh raha. And what not.

Please watch Mta. See how many free schools, Hospitals , dispensaries, Water Plants Jamaat e Ahmadiyya is operating in Africa to help ailing Humanity. Why there ? Because we are permitted. How much Jamaat e Ahmadiyya is promoting and preaching Peaceful messafe of Islam in Europe America Australia Canada and few Arab countries where there is freedom of Religion if not than through its TV and Radio channels. See kesay Qalam ka Jehaad horaha hai ? ? And how massive Humanitarian works worth billions is being carried out all by Jamaat's own financial Jehaad done by its own members wilfully. Don't buy propaganda of Mullah k they get money from Yahood o Nasara it's all trash and baseless allegation without even a single evidence. Go and See Pakistan's best Heart Hospital in the town of Rabwah where free treatment of Poor heart patients is done irrespective of Religion background or Zaat Paat. All run by our financial sacrifices. What Mullah is doing ? Giving fatwaaz k yahan se ilaaj kerana haraam hai.

We are Serving Humanity.

When He Pbuh is targeted by WEST We write to diplomats and Head of states condemning it. We publish articles in newspapers. We potray the real beautiful face of Mohammad e Arabi Pbuh infront of the whole world by telling them His greatest character (Seerat).

When terrorists deteriorate image of Islam We defend Islam. We tell the world the peaceful teachings of Islam from Quran & Hadith.

Our Caliph has spoken at various parliaments of the world aswell as American Congress telling West to not wage wars, not to fund wars, not to disrespect sovereignty of other countries and to be Just by doing Justice. Whereas to Muslims he says Be Peaceful and those who are doing Terrorism on name of Jehaad stop this violence. Stop bloodshed all arguments speeches he does are addressed from Quranic verses, Ahadees and Islamic Shariat teachings.

What is fake Caliph Abu Bakar Baghdaadi doing in the same time and age ? ?


Ye sub Cult nai kiya kertay. Na he jhootoun ko Allah kbi b religious medaan mein kamyaabian deta hai.

I cannot read Urdu written in English Alphabet so I will comment only on part which is written in English .

Even if any member of any non Muslim community spends on public welfare all that his earns , all his life , this does not make him Muslim, it makes him a social worker so argument that Africa has been targetted by Ahmedis for spreading faith in return for medical services is not an argument that you are Muslims or Muhammedans , it simply means you are spreading some dharam of your own. Westerners spread Christianity in this way in Africa and you followed that way.

The pacifism of Ahmedis is a smoke screen , you get all the support and protection from world powers and being closely alligned you have to be classified in all misdoings and militancy they are involved with.

Any argument that false prophets had no following but mirza managed it so it is proof of his authenticity is a non starter . Africa your bases has all types of healers and fake religions and all have following . Even human eating ones are flourishing for centuries .

You have to accept that Mirza was a person who collected ideas and put forward a doctrine which relies on Christian idea of jesus reborn or return and not Muslim idea of Mujaddad who is not to be prophet , so despite insistence on being muslims you have no acceptablity amongst serious knowledgeable muslims that you are one of them .

How can a person be called Muhammedan or Muslim if does not believe in finality of prophethood , he considers wide variety of religions and cult as part of Islam and also has a propeht of its own , a caliph of his own .

violence or anarchy amongst Muslims is not an argument that Ahmediat is right , Muslims are 1/4 of the world population and are entitled to 1/4 th violence too ., Had Ahmedis been so many may be they would have several caliphs and eat each other .