Great Move If Applicable

[Worldtronic]

Why we blaming each others, we are all educated we can ready Quran and Sunnah. we can the truth.

Any way this is Islamic republic of pakistan, so all laws should be as per Islam rules. If some brother's against this, they are free to leave and go any other country where they can live as they want.

 

[خداداد]

It is with regret that I am a citizen of Pakistan. I do not believe in Islamic governance. I want ALL my fellow countrymen to be Equal. And this drive for equality is what Islamic governance does not chase. The other thing that is fundamentally against my own personality is that I do not appreciate any 3rd person coming between Me and My God. In the state of Pakistan you are ONLY a muslim if the state of Pakistan says you are a muslim. You first need state sanction to be a muslim. That is ridiculous. The state is NOT my Prophet or my Mini-God to give me their blessing to be Muslim. While I am a Sunni Muslim, this probably doesn't affect me much at all. As I am one of those Muslims who falls in the favor of Pakistani constitution. But none the less I recognize injustice when I see it. It is inequality.

Similarly, Non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens in Pakistan. That is another injustice. We need to bring people on the same Page. And you cannot bring everyone of every religion on the same Islamic Page. It's as simple as that. You need something else.

I am confident enough to safely say that I have read between the lines and understood your grievances. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

The State of Pakistan only asks people about their religious beliefs to determine if they are Muslims or a Non Muslim. To be a muslim one has to admit that he believes in one God and that Prephet Muhammad ﷺ is Allah's messenger and the LAST of them all. It does not even bother about a person's sect weather he is a Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Anglican, Protestant, etc.

However, anyone who declares him a non muslim is considered a religious minority and according to the law, that does not affect their Pakistani nationality or their fundamental rights as a Pakistani national by any means.

The society of Pakistan has been corrupted by illiterate religious preachers who have misguided the muslim majority and disturbed the concept of harmony and coexistence, and it needs to be condemned with the loudest possible voice.

Anyway, this is a controversial topic and being Pakistani I am of a view that whoever benefits this country and is a well wisher of this state is my hero regardless his religion or sect and whoever tries to dig the foundation of this state must be digging a hole for himself, weather he is an illiterate religious preacher or a highly educated member of a religious minority.

 

[Citizen X]

Well if you are going to have an Islamic state then a full blown 100% Islamic state and I'm not talking Taliban style but rather Khulafa Rashideen style. Where they are model for global governance, every citizen was equal regardless of race, sex and religion. Neighbouring countries asked to be annexed into the empire after seeing how the Muslims governed, that type of Muslim Govt. Where the state and the leader is personally responsible for each and every citizens and residents well being and safety and if you can't have that and want to have a modern democracy, then have a 100% secular democracy. Or the third would be the style of a benfactorial dictatorship, which basically the GCC countries are and in 1/4th the time Pakistan has had they have gone leaps and bounds ahead of it.

This 50/50 type of some old taliban type mullah Islamic mixed in with 200 year old school british common law govt system doesn't work and does nothing but create trouble. Its like having your your feet in two different boats at the same time which are constantly drifting apart, eventually you will have to jump into one boat or fall into the water.

 

[Citizen X]

P.S : And a big akhh thuu to Zia for creating this situation in the first place as before this although not perfect at least we knew we were a secular( ish ) democracy. We should take heed from Afghanistan, if we don't change we will end up like them.

 

[LeezaKhan]

Hey faithful of the male kind

Have you HALKA PHULKA beaten your wife today?

Twice a day everyday....

HALKY PHULKY piar mein HALKI PHULKI MAAR,,,

 

[lurker]

Fundamental rights are affected if your a Muslim or not in the state of Pakistan. For example, one cannot be a head of state(President Or Prime Minister) if he/she is NOT a muslim. That is constitutional discrimination against a part of its own citizenry.

To Be a Muslim one is not liable to admit to anyone. I am not fond of Ahmadis/Qadiyanis, but I know the leg that the State of Pakistan stands on is false. Muhammad Zafarullah Khan was hand picked by Jinnah; guess what? Can someone like him be used as a foreign minister today because the Islamic Republic of Pakistan does not recognize him as a Muslim? Jogendra Nath Mandal was another handpicked appointee by Jinnah, he too tendered his resignation to Liaqat Ali Khan in 1950 and migrated back to India. Died in 1968. He cited inequality and bias against minorities in Pakistan. That speaks volumes of what was Jinnah's pick and what is todays' Pakistan.

I agree Pakistani society has been corrupted by the religious orthodoxy. Islam was USED to create Pakistan. Islam was/is USED to destroy Pakistan. That's the beautiful Irony.

I am confident enough to safely say that I have read between the lines and understood your grievances. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

The State of Pakistan only asks people about their religious beliefs to determine if they are Muslims or a Non Muslim. To be a muslim one has to admit that he believes in one God and that Prephet Muhammad ﷺ is Allah's messenger and the LAST of them all. It does not even bother about a person's sect weather he is a Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Anglican, Protestant, etc.

However, anyone who declares him a non muslim is considered a religious minority and according to the law, that does not affect their Pakistani nationality or their fundamental rights as a Pakistani national by any means.

The society of Pakistan has been corrupted by illiterate religious preachers who have misguided the muslim majority and disturbed the concept of harmony and coexistence, and it needs to be condemned with the loudest possible voice.

Anyway, this is a controversial topic and being Pakistani I am of a view that whoever benefits this country and is a well wisher of this state is my hero regardless his religion or sect and whoever tries to dig the foundation of this state must be digging a hole for himself, weather he is an illiterate religious preacher or a highly educated member of a religious minority.

 

[خداداد]

Fundamental rights are affected if your a Muslim or not in the state of Pakistan. For example, one cannot be a head of state(President Or Prime Minister) if he/she is NOT a muslim. That is constitutional discrimination against a part of its own citizenry.

To Be a Muslim one is not liable to admit to anyone. I am not fond of Ahmadis/Qadiyanis, but I know the leg that the State of Pakistan stands on is false. Muhammad Zafarullah Khan was hand picked by Jinnah; guess what? Can someone like him be used as a foreign minister today because the Islamic Republic of Pakistan does not recognize him as a Muslim? Jogendra Nath Mandal was another handpicked appointee by Jinnah, he too tendered his resignation to Liaqat Ali Khan in 1950 and migrated back to India. Died in 1968. He cited inequality and bias against minorities in Pakistan. That speaks volumes of what was Jinnah's pick and what is todays' Pakistan.

I agree Pakistani society has been corrupted by the religious orthodoxy. Islam was USED to create Pakistan. Islam was/is USED to destroy Pakistan. That's the beautiful Irony.

If you claim that fundamental rights of minorities are affected in Pakistan by not presenting them an opportunity of becoming head of the state, then how would you rate Britain? Do you think that they are also discriminating minorities by not allowing them to become the head of the state?

To become a Muslim, saying the Kalima is enough. But there are conditions to remain a Muslim. There are ideological boundaries withing this Muslimhood which if crossed, expell the person from Islam. And apart from believing in oneness of Allah and Prophethood of Muhammad ﷺ, believing that He is the LAST of all Prophets is a part of Muslimhood. If one does not believe in SEAL of Prophethood, then he can be trapped by anyone claiming to be the Messiah weather he is in India or in Sudan or in Britain, US or any part of the world.

Muhammad Zafarullah Khan was an outstanding personality but we also had General Gracey as COAS who was inherited from British India. He also worked with Jinnah.

And I am with you that Islam has been used by these illiterate Mullahs for their own benefit. We need harmony and coexistence in this country.

 

[lurker]

Yes. I don't discriminate in my conclusions. The United Kingdom also has a discriminatory legislature for heads of state. Both Pakistan and the UK are wrong. The only difference is in the UK people live relatively prosperous lives compared to the poverty stricken lives the people live in Pakistan. This makes the LEGAL Pakistani discrimination precipitate to the lower echelons of Pakistani society. In simple words the Constitutional discrimination against the Minorities of Pakistan encourages further discrimination in the society.

I know every self righteous Pakistani Muslim feels the "Chichar" need to revisit past glory days of the Khilafat, but why don't they realize the world is 7 Billion strong. Pakistan is over 200 Million people. All have different faith. Different Ethnicity. Different language. I don't know how these people satisfy themselves when they know that they are transgressing upon other people's fundamental rights.

Who is a Muslim? If a Man sits in a cave all alone and professes the faith of Islam; is He a Muslim now? Or does he require witnesses who not just witness but also affirm and certify that He is a Muslim? This is a fundamental problem that faces the Pakistani version of Islam. The State of Pakistan certifies who is a Muslim and who is Not. Not your Kalimah. This first requirement of the state certifying a Muslim is a Blasphemy of sorts. But few Pakistanis realize this or see it this way.

If you claim that fundamental rights of minorities are affected in Pakistan by not presenting them an opportunity of becoming head of the state, then how would you rate Britain? Do you think that they are also discriminating minorities by not allowing them to become the head of the state?

To become a Muslim, saying the Kalima is enough. But there are conditions to remain a Muslim. There are ideological boundaries withing this Muslimhood which if crossed, expell the person from Islam. And apart from believing in oneness of Allah and Prophethood of Muhammad ﷺ, believing that He is the LAST of all Prophets is a part of Muslimhood. If one does not believe in SEAL of Prophethood, then he can be trapped by anyone claiming to be the Messiah weather he is in India or in Sudan or in Britain, US or any part of the world.

Muhammad Zafarullah Khan was an outstanding personality but we also had General Gracey as COAS who was inherited from British India. He also worked with Jinnah.

And I am with you that Islam has been used by these illiterate Mullahs for their own benefit. We need harmony and coexistence in this country.

 

[خداداد]

Yes. I don't discriminate in my conclusions. The United Kingdom also has a discriminatory legislature for heads of state. Both Pakistan and the UK are wrong. The only difference is in the UK people live relatively prosperous lives compared to the poverty stricken lives the people live in Pakistan. This makes the LEGAL Pakistani discrimination precipitate to the lower echelons of Pakistani society. In simple words the Constitutional discrimination against the Minorities of Pakistan encourages further discrimination in the society.

I know every self righteous Pakistani Muslim feels the "Chichar" need to revisit past glory days of the Khilafat, but why don't they realize the world is 7 Billion strong. Pakistan is over 200 Million people. All have different faith. Different Ethnicity. Different language. I don't know how these people satisfy themselves when they know that they are transgressing upon other people's fundamental rights.

Who is a Muslim? If a Man sits in a cave all alone and professes the faith of Islam; is He a Muslim now? Or does he require witnesses who not just witness but also affirm and certify that He is a Muslim? This is a fundamental problem that faces the Pakistani version of Islam. The State of Pakistan certifies who is a Muslim and who is Not. Not your Kalimah. This first requirement of the state certifying a Muslim is a Blasphemy of sorts. But few Pakistanis realize this or see it this way.

Your grudge against Pakistan is pointless. People do such mourning for discrimination in Pakistan because they take this country for granted. The same people when get a UK visa and later on British Passport then prefer to live quietly under the same "discrimination". Germany, UK, Canada and many other countries are full of such people.

And please do not take me as a Mullah riding a horse. I am strictly against these Mumbo Jumbo non state actors.

Emaan is everyone's personal matter. I normally dont get into sectarian debate. But only Qadianiat is an exception. If I am ever asked a question as to why I consider Qadianis non muslims, I would simply ask them "am I a muslim in your opinion?"

 

[lurker]

This is why I said, prosperity has a way of keeping people quite. UK is a prosperous nation. Money silences all. Even the religious types. It is only when you are faced with hardships and poverty you start to realize that you are pre-disposed to be put at a disadvantage.

I was really vocal against Qadiyanis/Ahmedis in my younger days. However as I grow older, I have come to realize that even my own people sometimes call me non-muslim. This got me thinking that who exactly IS a muslim? It was all fun and great that we got Qadiyanis off the Muslim list, atleast in Pakistan; however this also means the state has FIRST and FINAL say in who is a muslim and who is not. We stopped one issue and created a plethora of others. See, Pakistanis don't really have a propensity to think long term. They love shortcuts. Short term. This Qadiyani solution was a Short Cut solution and it has now far reaching repercussions. There are other similar Short Term processes. The Blasphemy Laws were short term measures and they routinely backfire. The Hudood ordinances were short term again and they too are useless. These guys don't think long term. They just want their hoors and their little plot of land in heaven. Baki duniya jaye bhaar mein.

Anyone's opinion of you if you are a Muslim or Not should be irrelevant. That is between you and Allah. When you die, these guys will not ask your next door neighbor if You were a Muslim or not. That is telling of how it should be.

Your grudge against Pakistan is pointless. People do such mourning for discrimination in Pakistan because they take this country for granted. The same people when get a UK visa and later on British Passport then prefer to live quietly under the same "discrimination". Germany, UK, Canada and many other countries are full of such people.

And please do not take me as a Mullah riding a horse. I am strictly against these Mumbo Jumbo non state actors.

Emaan is everyone's personal matter. I normally dont get into sectarian debate. But only Qadianiat is an exception. If I am ever asked a question as to why I consider Qadianis non muslims, I would simply ask them "am I a muslim in your opinion?"

 

[warraich001]

Emaan is everyone's personal matter. I normally dont get into sectarian debate. But only Qadianiat is an exception. If I am ever asked a question as to why I consider Qadianis non muslims, I would simply ask them "am I a muslim in your opinion?"

Hello! I have been following siasat.pk for sometime now and I mostly don't engage in debates as I feel some people here are more keen in giving labels to others instead of debating on the issues. From what I have seen from your comments is that you are not one of those so I would like to answer one of the questions you asked above which I have left in bold. I belong to ahmadiyya community and believe whoever claims to be a Muslim should be considered as a Muslim. For me it's not up to people or government to decide the religion of someone.

 

[kpkpak]

جیسے لال ٹوپی بندر کی بات پر کوئی یقین نہیں کرتا

باتیں ١٠٠% ٹھیک ہیں لیکن کرنے والے اپنے گھٹیا پن کی وجہ سے اعتماد کھو چکے ہیں. یہ ایسا ہی ہے کہ جیسے کوئی بدنام زمانہ مجرم جمعہ دینے کھڑا ہو جائے. بد نصیبی کی انتہا ہے قوم کی

 

[dangerous tears]

اسلامی نظریاتی کونسل کا واحد مقصد حکمران سیاسی رشوت کے طور پر اس کے عہدو ں کی بندر بانٹ کرتے ہیں
اور زیادہ تر مزہبی پارٹیون مولانا فضل الرحمان کے لوگو ں کو یہ عہدے بانٹ دءے جاتے ہیں باقی اس کا کوئی ککھ فائیدہ نہیں
بلکہ عوام کے پیسوں کو ضیاع ہے بس

 

[خداداد]

Hello! I have been following siasat.pk for sometime now and I mostly don't engage in debates as I feel some people here are more keen in giving labels to others instead of debating on the issues. From what I have seen from your comments is that you are not one of those so I would like to answer one of the questions you asked above which I have left in bold. I belong to ahmadiyya community and believe whoever claims to be a Muslim should be considered as a Muslim. For me it's not up to people or government to decide the religion of someone.

I would not want to have an endless string of arguments and counter arguments on this thread as its not even the topic of thread. However, would wrap up from my side by saying that the matter of the seal of Prophithood is of such importance that if someone makes such claim and gets followers too, then asking Muslims if they follow him or not is to be considered a preventive measure rather than considered an interference in private lives.

 

[lurker]

The Kalimah does not contain anything about the seal or finality of Prophet Muhammad(Saw). So if you used any other declaration other than this particular one to pronounce yourself as Muslim, then perhaps that is from an islamic jurist point of view null and void. What is your take on that? I highlight the Kalimah because that is something you said that one needs to say/believe to be a Muslim. If it were upto me I don't care either way. You can just say to me you are Muslim and I will buy it. Buy it because in a Secular State it is irrelevant to me or anyone else.

I would not want to have an endless string of arguments and counter arguments on this thread as its not even the topic of thread. However, would wrap up from my side by saying that the matter of the seal of Prophithood is of such importance that if someone makes such claim and gets followers too, then asking Muslims if they follow him or not is to be considered a preventive measure rather than considered an interference in private lives.