Comparing Indians, Pakistanis, Bengalis, Afghans and Egyptians in the United States - Excellent arti

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
DAWN.COM Blog Archive Dollars and sense of American desis


dollars_290.jpg

Immigrants born in India outdo others in achieving economic success in the United States. Pakistan-born immigrants, while trailing behind Indians, do better than the native-born Americans.

The estimates reported in the 2010 American Community Survey revealed that the median salaried household income of India-born immigrants was around $94,700. In comparison, the median household income of native-born Americans was estimated at $51,750. Unlike the Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada, who lagged behind others in economic prosperity, Pakistanis in America are relatively thriving where the median household income of Pakistan-born immigrants is 18 per cent higher than that of the native-born Americans.

The American Community Survey for 2010 (latest data available from the US Census Bureau) reveal that amongst South Asians living in the US, India-born immigrants are far ahead of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Afghanis. Even when compared with immigrants from Egypt, a country known for supplying highly educated immigrants to the US, Indians report exceptionally higher indicators of economic progress.

murtaza_blog_1.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


Indian-born immigrants also reported one of the lowest poverty rates at 4 per cent. Afghanistan-born immigrants reported the highest poverty rate where one in five Afghan immigrants was deemed below the poverty line in the US. While Pakistan-born immigrants reported higher median household incomes than the native-born Americans, surprisingly 14 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants were below the poverty line compared to only 9.4 per cent of the native-born Americans.

Another indicator of financial distress amongst households in North America is the percentage of household income spent on gross rent. Households spending 30 per cent or more of household income on rent are considered financially distressed. Amongst households who live in rental units, 57 per cent of the immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Egypt spent more than 30 per cent of the household income on rent compared to only 24 per cent of immigrants from India.

murtaza_blog_2.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


These poverty statistics raise several questions. For instance, despite having similar South Asian heritage, Pakistan-born immigrants report a 2.4-times higher rate of poverty than their Indian counterparts.
Furthermore, poverty among younger cohorts (18 years old or younger) is even worse amongst immigrants from Pakistan than from India. At the same time almost 50 per cent of under-18 Afghan immigrants are reportedly below the poverty line in the US. These statistics necessitate the need to explore the reasons behind disparities amongst immigrants from South Asia.

I am presenting here a socio-economic comparison of South Asians in the US. I have restricted the reporting to immigrants from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan. This is done because India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and to some extent Afghanistan have more in common in culture and recent history than other countries in South Asia. I have thrown in Egypt for good measure to serve as a control for immigrants from another Muslim country with a different cultural background.

The purpose of this comparative review is to determine what are the reasons behind the success of India-born immigrants in the US. Could it be that the immigrants from India had luck on their side, or could it be that Indian immigrants possessed the necessary ingredients to succeed in the highly competitive labour market in the United States. More importantly, one needs to explore why immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh lag behind those from India in achieving the same levels of economic success.


Sizing the South Asians
:
With approximately 1.8 million individuals, India-born immigrants form the largest cohort amongst South Asians in the US. The American Community Survey (ACS) in 2010 estimated Pakistan-born immigrants at 300,000, Bangladesh-born immigrants at 153,000, and Afghanistan-born immigrants at 60,000. Egypt-born immigrants totalled 133,000. Immigrants from India were approximately five-times the size of Pakistan-born immigrants. The relatively large size of Indian immigrants leads to larger social networks, which help with searching for better employment prospects.

Despite their large size, most India-born immigrants in the US are recent arrivals. Whereas 47 per cent of the India-born immigrants arrived in the US after 2000, only 36 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants arrived after 2000. This suggests that the economic success of immigrants from India is driven by the recent arrivals. Relatively speaking, immigrants from Afghanistan have enjoyed the longest tenure in the US of all South Asian countries discussed here. Notice that while 42 per cent of immigrants from Afghanistan arrived in the US before 1980, only 25 per cent of the Indian immigrants accomplished the same.

murtaza_blog_3.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010



Pakistanis have larger families:

With 4.3 persons per households, immigrants from Pakistan and Afghanistan reported significantly larger family sizes. In comparison, the native-born population reported a household size of 2.6 persons whereas the size of India-born immigrant households was around 3.5 persons. The difference between immigrants from India and other South Asians is more pronounced when one looks at the per capita earnings. Owing to their smaller household size, immigrants from India reported significantly higher per capita incomes than the rest. For instance, Bangladesh-born immigrants reported 50% less in median per capita income than those from India. And while immigrants from Pakistan reported higher household incomes than the immigrants from Egypt, the larger household size of Pakistan-born immigrants brought their per capita incomes lower than that of Egyptians.

Larger household size results in overcrowding, especially amongst low-income households, who often live in rental units. The average household size of rental households from Pakistan was found to be 33 per cent larger than the same from immigrants from India. Fifteen per cent of households from Pakistan were found to have more than one occupant on average per room compared to only 6 per cent of those from India.


Women in the labour force:
A key source of distinction between the immigrants from India and other South Asians is the higher participation of Indian women in the labour force. A much higher integration of women in the labour force is one of the reasons why immigrants from India have fared much better than others in the United States. Consider that only 42 per cent of the women from Pakistan were active in the labour force in the US compared to 57 per cent women from India. In fact women from Pakistan reportedly the lowest participation in the labour force in the US falling behind women from Egypt, Afghanistan , and Bangladesh.


Education matters the most:
It should come as no surprise that immigrants from India are one of the most educated cohort in the United States. Almost 42 per cent of immigrants from India over the age of 25 reported having a graduate (Masters) or a professional degree. In comparison, only 10 per cent of the native-born adults reported having a graduate or professional degree. Approximately 23 per cent of adult immigrants from Egypt and Pakistan reported having a graduate or professional degree.

The correlation between higher education attainment and higher median household incomes is explicitly presented in the graph below. India-born immigrants with professional degrees also reported significantly higher incomes than the rest. In comparison, immigrants from Afghanistan with one of the lowest incidence of professional degrees reportedly the lowest median household incomes.

murtaza_blog_4.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


The gender divide is again instrumental between immigrants from India and the rest. Whereas 70 per cent of the India-born female adults reported having a Bachelors degree or higher, only 46 per cent of adult females born in Pakistan reported the same in the US. At the same time only 28 per cent of the native-born female adults in the US reported completing university education.


Better education better careers:
The education attainment levels amongst adult immigrants determine, to a large, extent their career choices. University education resulting in professional or graduate degrees allows immigrants to qualify for well-paying jobs in the US. Immigrants from India have been able to use their high-quality education to make inroads in the high-paying employment market. One is therefore hardly surprised to see that of the adult employed population, 70 per cent immigrants from India are working in occupations focusing on management, business, science, and arts. In comparison, only 44 per cent of immigrants from Pakistan ad 33 per cent immigrants from Bangladesh are employed in similar occupations.


What have we learnt:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
In 1883, Emma Lazarus asked for the tired, the poor, and the wretched refuse. India instead sent its very best to the United States. Instead of the huddled masses, graduates from Indian Institutes of Technology and Management arrived in hundreds of thousands at the American shores. These immigrants were products of a sophisticated higher education system whose foundations were laid by Pandit Nehru in early fifties.

In the rest of South Asia, especially in Pakistan and Bangladesh, education has never been a national priority. The results of such conflicting priorities are obvious. Graduates from Indian universities are outdoing others in competitivelabour markets at home and abroad.

If education is not made a national priority, the gap between Indians and other South Asians will grow at home and in diaspora.

Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at [email protected]
 
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Unicorn

Banned
Thanks for sharing [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] (clap). There is one category missing the " Indian Agents ":lol:. I bet they have the highest income than everyone ells.

So far all confirmed Indian Agents by my Indian_Agent_O_Meter have whopping income[hilar]

Indian_Agento.jpg
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Any way you look, any way you slice, headcount/population issue rears its head in every economic and income issue.

Lekin what confuses me is if Indians are careful about family size then who forgot to inform India about it?

Thanks for sharing @AsifAmeer (clap). There is one category missing the " Indian Agents ":lol:. I bet they have the highest income than everyone ells.

So far all confirmed Indian Agents by my Indian_Agent_O_Meter have whopping income[hilar]

Indian_Agento.jpg
 

A.Ali.T

Minister (2k+ posts)
There is another factor in the mix which the writer did not include in his blog which is networking. Indians are united and we are divided. Instead of helping each other we pull each others leg.
 
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AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Thats the quote of the day! SO VERY TRUE!

I have experienced this issue 1st hand. We pakistanis tend to be racists... racists against our own race!

There is another factor in the mix which the writer did not include in his blog which is networking. Indians are united and we are divided. Instead of helping each other we pull each others leg.
 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Any way you look, any way you slice, headcount/population issue rears its head in every economic and income issue.

Lekin what confuses me is if Indians are careful about family size then who forgot to inform India about it?

I am sure if you look at the detailed breakdown of fertility rates of families in different income strata in India and among the educated vs uneducated the ones with higher income levels and who are educated definitely have smaller family sizes. The Indians in the USA are educated and well off and hence you see "do bachay he achay" :-)
 

Unicorn

Banned
Any way you look, any way you slice, headcount/population issue rears its head in every economic and income issue.

Lekin what confuses me is if Indians are careful about family size then who forgot to inform India about it?

When in India all my family, friends and associates are middle class and I only know one family that has four kids and they can afford all the rest have 3 or less. If you visit the poor areas and slums it would be impossible to find a couple who has been married for 8 years and had less then 4 kids and its not that because they didn't try they could easily have had 8. The contraceptives are free but they don't care they want more kids.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The survey makes sense but now lets look at the REAL REASONS FOR disparity. Mostly, it is because a Muslim Pakistani cannot mingle with the westerners at a level as a person of another faith can (drinking, socializing, visits to the strip clubs and so on and so forth). Indians for a majority of the reasons dont have this issue. Which is why they secure better positions in organizations they work. This is because of the part of indian culture which synchronizes with the west.

Samething for businesses, I have seen a lot of adult stores, bars, pubs, night clubs, pizza stores which sell pork and anything which is construed as "Haram" business activity, being run by indians, and every credit to them for doing so and no offense intended. But for a Muslim to indulge in these acitivites it is seen as clear mark of defiance of the tenents of their faith.

Alhamdolillah, you wont find muslim pakistanis or another other people of Muslim diaspora indulging en-masse in business which is construed as haram and even the bad apples have some sense of shame while they try to fit into the local culture. So in between their religion and what is allowed the Muslims do pretty well and second best in Duniya is worth it because it compensates for a better hereafter (akhira).

Another factor to be considered is that the general level of desperation seen in India are a lot higher in general than some Muslim countries and so naturally the push to do well and to assimilate into the western culture so as to escape from India for good is another VERY BIG and Compelling Reason.

Overall, during the last five years Indians have gotten a good visibility in the US media as the Us searches for a tiger to stand upto china. For this reason Indians have been made to come into the spotlight and a strategic partnership has been forged with india at a media, cultural and now defense level and we congratulate them on this. The amalgamation of the pagans with the other religions has long been predicted by our AKKA pbuh.

All this is nothing new for my AKKA pbuh already predicted this in a Hadith :

"Remember the Kuffar are one family, and the Muslims are another" - Prophet Muhammad pbuh

So when the Indians and westerns continue their love triangle we THANKFULLY bow our heads to Allah swt in Making us second best in Duniya but the BEST in Akhira.

Whenever it comes to choosing between Dunya and Akhira the rightfull muslims will always choose the later...As for the Indians we already know where they stand
(bigsmile)

DAWN.COM Blog Archive Dollars and sense of American desis


dollars_290.jpg

Immigrants born in India outdo others in achieving economic success in the United States. Pakistan-born immigrants, while trailing behind Indians, do better than the native-born Americans.

The estimates reported in the 2010 American Community Survey revealed that the median salaried household income of India-born immigrants was around $94,700. In comparison, the median household income of native-born Americans was estimated at $51,750. Unlike the Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada, who lagged behind others in economic prosperity, Pakistanis in America are relatively thriving where the median household income of Pakistan-born immigrants is 18 per cent higher than that of the native-born Americans.

The American Community Survey for 2010 (latest data available from the US Census Bureau) reveal that amongst South Asians living in the US, India-born immigrants are far ahead of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Afghanis. Even when compared with immigrants from Egypt, a country known for supplying highly educated immigrants to the US, Indians report exceptionally higher indicators of economic progress.

murtaza_blog_1.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


Indian-born immigrants also reported one of the lowest poverty rates at 4 per cent. Afghanistan-born immigrants reported the highest poverty rate where one in five Afghan immigrants was deemed below the poverty line in the US. While Pakistan-born immigrants reported higher median household incomes than the native-born Americans, surprisingly 14 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants were below the poverty line compared to only 9.4 per cent of the native-born Americans.

Another indicator of financial distress amongst households in North America is the percentage of household income spent on gross rent. Households spending 30 per cent or more of household income on rent are considered financially distressed. Amongst households who live in rental units, 57 per cent of the immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Egypt spent more than 30 per cent of the household income on rent compared to only 24 per cent of immigrants from India.

murtaza_blog_2.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


These poverty statistics raise several questions. For instance, despite having similar South Asian heritage, Pakistan-born immigrants report a 2.4-times higher rate of poverty than their Indian counterparts.
Furthermore, poverty among younger cohorts (18 years old or younger) is even worse amongst immigrants from Pakistan than from India. At the same time almost 50 per cent of under-18 Afghan immigrants are reportedly below the poverty line in the US. These statistics necessitate the need to explore the reasons behind disparities amongst immigrants from South Asia.

I am presenting here a socio-economic comparison of South Asians in the US. I have restricted the reporting to immigrants from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan. This is done because India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and to some extent Afghanistan have more in common in culture and recent history than other countries in South Asia. I have thrown in Egypt for good measure to serve as a control for immigrants from another Muslim country with a different cultural background.

The purpose of this comparative review is to determine what are the reasons behind the success of India-born immigrants in the US. Could it be that the immigrants from India had luck on their side, or could it be that Indian immigrants possessed the necessary ingredients to succeed in the highly competitive labour market in the United States. More importantly, one needs to explore why immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh lag behind those from India in achieving the same levels of economic success.


Sizing the South Asians
:
With approximately 1.8 million individuals, India-born immigrants form the largest cohort amongst South Asians in the US. The American Community Survey (ACS) in 2010 estimated Pakistan-born immigrants at 300,000, Bangladesh-born immigrants at 153,000, and Afghanistan-born immigrants at 60,000. Egypt-born immigrants totalled 133,000. Immigrants from India were approximately five-times the size of Pakistan-born immigrants. The relatively large size of Indian immigrants leads to larger social networks, which help with searching for better employment prospects.

Despite their large size, most India-born immigrants in the US are recent arrivals. Whereas 47 per cent of the India-born immigrants arrived in the US after 2000, only 36 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants arrived after 2000. This suggests that the economic success of immigrants from India is driven by the recent arrivals. Relatively speaking, immigrants from Afghanistan have enjoyed the longest tenure in the US of all South Asian countries discussed here. Notice that while 42 per cent of immigrants from Afghanistan arrived in the US before 1980, only 25 per cent of the Indian immigrants accomplished the same.

murtaza_blog_3.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010



Pakistanis have larger families:

With 4.3 persons per households, immigrants from Pakistan and Afghanistan reported significantly larger family sizes. In comparison, the native-born population reported a household size of 2.6 persons whereas the size of India-born immigrant households was around 3.5 persons. The difference between immigrants from India and other South Asians is more pronounced when one looks at the per capita earnings. Owing to their smaller household size, immigrants from India reported significantly higher per capita incomes than the rest. For instance, Bangladesh-born immigrants reported 50% less in median per capita income than those from India. And while immigrants from Pakistan reported higher household incomes than the immigrants from Egypt, the larger household size of Pakistan-born immigrants brought their per capita incomes lower than that of Egyptians.

Larger household size results in overcrowding, especially amongst low-income households, who often live in rental units. The average household size of rental households from Pakistan was found to be 33 per cent larger than the same from immigrants from India. Fifteen per cent of households from Pakistan were found to have more than one occupant on average per room compared to only 6 per cent of those from India.


Women in the labour force:
A key source of distinction between the immigrants from India and other South Asians is the higher participation of Indian women in the labour force. A much higher integration of women in the labour force is one of the reasons why immigrants from India have fared much better than others in the United States. Consider that only 42 per cent of the women from Pakistan were active in the labour force in the US compared to 57 per cent women from India. In fact women from Pakistan reportedly the lowest participation in the labour force in the US falling behind women from Egypt, Afghanistan , and Bangladesh.


Education matters the most:
It should come as no surprise that immigrants from India are one of the most educated cohort in the United States. Almost 42 per cent of immigrants from India over the age of 25 reported having a graduate (Masters) or a professional degree. In comparison, only 10 per cent of the native-born adults reported having a graduate or professional degree. Approximately 23 per cent of adult immigrants from Egypt and Pakistan reported having a graduate or professional degree.

The correlation between higher education attainment and higher median household incomes is explicitly presented in the graph below. India-born immigrants with professional degrees also reported significantly higher incomes than the rest. In comparison, immigrants from Afghanistan with one of the lowest incidence of professional degrees reportedly the lowest median household incomes.

murtaza_blog_4.jpg

Source: American Community Survey, 2010


The gender divide is again instrumental between immigrants from India and the rest. Whereas 70 per cent of the India-born female adults reported having a Bachelors degree or higher, only 46 per cent of adult females born in Pakistan reported the same in the US. At the same time only 28 per cent of the native-born female adults in the US reported completing university education.


Better education better careers:
The education attainment levels amongst adult immigrants determine, to a large, extent their career choices. University education resulting in professional or graduate degrees allows immigrants to qualify for well-paying jobs in the US. Immigrants from India have been able to use their high-quality education to make inroads in the high-paying employment market. One is therefore hardly surprised to see that of the adult employed population, 70 per cent immigrants from India are working in occupations focusing on management, business, science, and arts. In comparison, only 44 per cent of immigrants from Pakistan ad 33 per cent immigrants from Bangladesh are employed in similar occupations.


What have we learnt:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
In 1883, Emma Lazarus asked for the tired, the poor, and the wretched refuse. India instead sent its very best to the United States. Instead of the huddled masses, graduates from Indian Institutes of Technology and Management arrived in hundreds of thousands at the American shores. These immigrants were products of a sophisticated higher education system whose foundations were laid by Pandit Nehru in early fifties.

In the rest of South Asia, especially in Pakistan and Bangladesh, education has never been a national priority. The results of such conflicting priorities are obvious. Graduates from Indian universities are outdoing others in competitivelabour markets at home and abroad.

If education is not made a national priority, the gap between Indians and other South Asians will grow at home and in diaspora.

Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at [email protected]
 
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AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
You guys remember that scene from the movie "300" where the old wise man checks the baby for deficiencies & if found, the baby would be tossed out.. I wish there was a way to find mental retardation in adults and maybe we could toss them out in front of a bus.. like literally.

This whole idea of exponential growth as an economic model is a scam. Natural resources do not grow exponentially. Land doesnt get cultivated exponentially. These are limited resources. Sure, they played this "growth" game to keep their monetary debt from going bad. Rent-seekers piggy backed on growth as collateral for the validity of debt. The uneducated have walked right into their trap.

What Unicorn shared, is very similar to scenes in the US slums. single mothers with kids. on welfare. no education. They will continue to produce till they drop dead. Someone forgot to tell them we are humans and not rabbits.

I am sure if you look at the detailed breakdown of fertility rates of families in different income strata in India and among the educated vs uneducated the ones with higher income levels and who are educated definitely have smaller family sizes. The Indians in the USA are educated and well off and hence you see "do bachay he achay" :-)

When in India all my family, friends and associates are middle class and I only know one family that has four kids and they can afford all the rest have 3 or less. If you visit the poor areas and slums it would be impossible to find a couple who has been married for 8 years and had less then 4 kids and its not that because they didn't try they could easily have had 8. The contraceptives are free but they don't care they want more kids.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
I find your comment truly distasteful and frankly racist.

And just to let you know Pakistanis own a major chunk of Gas stations in the US, selling lottery tickets. Pakistanis are also famous for owning liquor stores. I personally know Pakistani businessmen who own multiple liquor store owners who have contributed to Masjid construction here in Texas.

There are Muslim cab drivers trolling outside nightclubs for rides at nights.

Lets not claim moral superiority by default just because we are "Muslims".



The survey makes sense but now lets look at the REAL REASONS FOR disparity. Mostly, it is because a Muslim Pakistani cannot mingle with the westerners at a level as a person of another faith can (drinking, socializing, visits to the strip clubs and so on and so forth). Indians for a majority of the reasons dont have this issue. Which is why they secure better positions in organizations they work. This is because of the part of indian culture which synchronizes with the west.

Samething for businesses, I have seen a lot of adult stores, bars, pubs, night clubs, pizza stores which sell pork and anything which is construed as "Haram" business activity, being run by indians, and every credit to them for doing so and no offense intended. But for a Muslim to indulge in these acitivites it is seen as clear mark of defiance of the tenents of their faith.

Another factor to be considered is that the general level of desperation seen in India are a lot higher in general than some Muslim countries and so naturally the push to do well and to assimilate into the western culture so as to escape from India for good is another VERY BIG and Compelling Reason.

Overall, during the last five years Indians have gotten a good visibility in the US media as the Us searches for a tiger to stand upto china. For this reason Indians have been made to come into the spotlight and a strategic partnership has been forged with india at a media, cultural and now defense level and we congratulate them on this. The amalgamation of the pagans with the other religions has long been predicted by our AKKA pbuh.

All this is nothing new for my AKKA pbuh already predicted this in a Hadith :

"Remember the Kuffar are one family, and the Muslims are another" - Prophet Muhammad pbuh

So when the Indians and westerns continue their love triangle we THANKFULLY bow our heads to Allah swt in Making us second best in Duniya but the BEST in Akhira.

Whenever it comes to choosing between Dunya and Akhira the rightfull muslims will always choose the later...As for the Indians we already know where they stand
(bigsmile)
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Have i nipped it at the bud ?...Come on dude ..you cant knock us down by playing the race card for every argument you cant answer !.you want to know how many "Patels" own strip clubs ? and adult stores ?..I can turn around and call you a racist for picking on pakistanis from certain muslim sects and pinning down their actions on the silent majority !. But im not going to do that,owing to your bad perception of Muslim history.

The article is discussing people who have migrated to the US in the past decade ?...Isnt it a fact that people of other faiths dont have Muslims ethical issues ??...If this is construed as racist then so be it - a fact is a fact. I know so many things which people of other faiths can do which a Muslim cant, that doesnt mean their arent bad apples !

You need to understand that when a Boss calls his employee to go have beer with him a momin MUSLIM will never do that, and that has CONSEQUENCES - does this make sense to you ?

We cant open strip clubs - some idiots have ...but not the major majority. Also the main activity in a which a person indulges has to be Haram for an work to be construed so. Theirs a difference in driving a taxi and owning a strip club... the problem with you is a completely myopic understanding of religion coupled with general media bias ...which makes for poor arguments.

Their is moral superiority because Islam has forbidden all other activities considered as "fun". Now whether you accept it or not is YOUR PROBLEM- but the facts remain !




I find your comment truly distasteful and frankly racist.

And just to let you know Pakistanis own a major chunk of Gas stations in the US, selling lottery tickets. Pakistanis are also famous for owning liquor stores. I personally know Pakistani businessmen who own multiple liquor store owners who have contributed to Masjid construction here in Texas.

There are Muslim cab drivers trolling outside nightclubs for rides at nights.

Lets not claim moral superiority by default just because we are "Muslims".
 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Okay - you made me break my promise to myself. I had promised that I will never engage in a conversation with you given what happened the last time.

I would like to keep it short and sweet.

To begin with, what you have written shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. If history is any indication then I am not at all surprised at the narrow and biased views that you presented.

I can elaborate - break it down and sprinkle it with first hand personal experiences debunking your wildly fantastical theories but I know that it will have no impact and you will take the conversation in a completely different direction which would have nothing to do with the topic we are discussing.

I am going to give you a brotherly advice - stick to the topics that you have first hand knowledge about.

In fact could you explain whats so haraam about cooped up in a cube developing software? In case you are wondering why am I asking you this - it would explain that you have no grasp of the topic you are talking about.

@AsifAmeer


The survey makes sense but now lets look at the REAL REASONS FOR disparity. Mostly, it is because a Muslim Pakistani cannot mingle with the westerners at a level as a person of another faith can (drinking, socializing, visits to the strip clubs and so on and so forth). Indians for a majority of the reasons dont have this issue. Which is why they secure better positions in organizations they work. This is because of the part of indian culture which synchronizes with the west.

Samething for businesses, I have seen a lot of adult stores, bars, pubs, night clubs, pizza stores which sell pork and anything which is construed as "Haram" business activity, being run by indians, and every credit to them for doing so and no offense intended. But for a Muslim to indulge in these acitivites it is seen as clear mark of defiance of the tenents of their faith.

Alhamdolillah, you wont find muslim pakistanis or another other people of Muslim diaspora indulging en-masse in business which is construed as haram and even the bad apples have some sense of shame while they try to fit into the local culture. So in between their religion and what is allowed the Muslims do pretty well and second best in Duniya is worth it because it compensates for a better hereafter (akhira).

Another factor to be considered is that the general level of desperation seen in India are a lot higher in general than some Muslim countries and so naturally the push to do well and to assimilate into the western culture so as to escape from India for good is another VERY BIG and Compelling Reason.

Overall, during the last five years Indians have gotten a good visibility in the US media as the Us searches for a tiger to stand upto china. For this reason Indians have been made to come into the spotlight and a strategic partnership has been forged with india at a media, cultural and now defense level and we congratulate them on this. The amalgamation of the pagans with the other religions has long been predicted by our AKKA pbuh.

All this is nothing new for my AKKA pbuh already predicted this in a Hadith :

"Remember the Kuffar are one family, and the Muslims are another" - Prophet Muhammad pbuh

So when the Indians and westerns continue their love triangle we THANKFULLY bow our heads to Allah swt in Making us second best in Duniya but the BEST in Akhira.

Whenever it comes to choosing between Dunya and Akhira the rightfull muslims will always choose the later...As for the Indians we already know where they stand
(bigsmile)
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dude, do me a favour and stick to your promise..thats better. I'm talking to asif ..stay out of it..those messages are posted for the general public. You dont like them ...their are other 50 forums where im sure someone is willing to listen to you. Be assured ...I will not miss you in anyway !

Okay - you made me break my promise to myself. I had promised that I will never engage in a conversation with you given what happened the last time.

I would like to keep it short and sweet.

To begin with, what you have written shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. If history is any indication then I am not at all surprised at the narrow and biased views that you presented.

I can elaborate - break it down and sprinkle it with first hand personal experiences debunking your wildly fantastical theories but I know that it will have no impact and you will take the conversation in a completely different direction which would have nothing to do with the topic we are discussing.

I am going to give you a brotherly advice - stick to the topics that you have first hand knowledge about.

In fact could you explain whats so haraam about cooped up in a cube developing software? In case you are wondering why am I asking you this - it would explain that you have no grasp of the topic you are talking about.

@AsifAmeer
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Some more interesting read from the Dawn's Blog about the successes of Pakistani Americans despite going against the odds and the MAJORITY not indulging in businesses considered against Islamic Ethics - Majority of Pakistani Americans are either ..Doctors, Engineers, Accountants and Financial Analysts..(bigsmile)

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http://dawn.com/2012/05/24/how-affluent-are-the-pakistani-americans/

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How affluent are the Pakistani-Americans?

Michael Kugelman | 24th May, 2012
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– Illustration by Eefa Khalid/Dawn.com

Last week, I read Dr Murtaza Haider’s post on the poverty of Pakistani-Canadians with great interest.

As I was barraged by one startling statistic after the other – 44 per cent below the poverty line, nearly 50 per cent who don’t own homes, almost a quarter never having been in the workforce – I couldn’t help but think how drastically different this story was from that of Pakistani-Americans, who are generally regarded as a well-off diaspora.
Indeed, I know of no low-income area or slum in the United States populated predominantly by people of Pakistani origin, and I have never heard of a Pakistani-American homeless person. When one thinks of this community, the words most often coming to mind are prosperous and philanthropic.

Evidence gives credence to these perceptions. According to a 2011 report by the Asian American Center for Advancing Justice (AACAJ), which draws on data from the 2010 US Census and other US government sources, the median household income of Pakistani-American families is nearly $63,000. This is considerably higher than the figure for families in America on the whole ($51,369). Additionally, as I have pointed out previously, the most common jobs of Pakistani-Americans include doctors, accountants, and financial analysts, and 55 per cent hold at least a bachelor’s degree (this latter figure is only 28 per cent across the US population on the whole).

Broadly speaking, Pakistani-Americans appear to be economically secure and their positive experiences likely compel them to invite friends and family back in Pakistan to join them in America. Consider that Pakistani-Americans are the second-fastest-growing Asian-American ethnic group – their numbers more than doubled from 2000 to 2010, soaring from 204,309 to 409,163.
Yet, this isn’t the full story.

Dig a bit deeper into the AACAJ report, and you will come across some troubling data. Fifteen per cent of Pakistani-Americans fall below the poverty line – which happens to be the rate for the American population on the whole. Similarly, unemployment rates for the diaspora – 8 per cent (for those aged 16 and older) – reflect the rate for the total US population. On several measures, Pakistani-Americans are considerably worse off than the general population. Only 55 per cent own homes, compared to the nationwide figure of 66 per cent. Their per capita income is about $24,700, compared to $27,100 for the total population. And 23 per cent of Pakistani-Americans have no health insurance – which ties them with Bangladeshi-Americans for the highest percentage of any Asian-American ethnic group. This is significantly higher than the 15 per cent national figure (though Gallup polls suggest this figure has risen to 17 per cent in the last few months).

What should we make of this? On the one hand, many members of any immigrant group will face challenges as they adjust to their new home country. While quite a few Pakistani-Americans were born in the United States, the majority – about 65 per cent – were not. Therefore, for most of the community, the adjustment period is very much in the present.

Additionally, one can’t forget about all those blue-collar Pakistani-American workers, and particularly the taxicab drivers. According to US Census figures, “drivers and other transportation workers” constitute the third most common profession of Pakistani-Americans. In the words of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a union that represents cab drivers in New York City (where Pakistanis are heavily represented), employees have not received raises since 2004, “and they now earn below both the NY state minimum wage for a 12-hour shift and a NYC Living Wage (by 40 per cent).”

Ultimately, the most accurate depiction of Pakistani-Americans is one that dispenses with all the data and simply accepts it for what it is: a diverse diaspora that is anything but a monolith. It ranges from hourly wage workers to physicians, academics, and a growing number of state legislators and mayors; from Washington insider Huma Abedin (a close adviser to Hillary Clinton) to race-car driver Nur Ali (the first Pakistani to serve in this profession); from the eloquent writer Daniyal Mueenuddin to the notorious businessman Mansoor Ijaz; and from those who promote interfaith dialogue (American University professor Akbar Ahmed) to the occasional militant (Faisal Shahzad, the man accused of having unsuccessfully attempted to blow up Times Square).

I’m willing to bet that behind the troubling figures and snapshots that Dr Haider presents of Pakistani-Canadians, there lies a similarly nuanced and complex portrait of the diaspora in Canada – one that features its share of good news and success stories. Just as affluence is only one of various parts of the Pakistani-American story, poverty is likely only one of various aspects of the Pakistani-Canadian experience.


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Michael Kugelman is the program associate for South Asia at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, DC. You can reach him at [email protected] and follow him on Twitter: @Michaelkugelman

 
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mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Its my promise to myself and I have the prerogative to annul it anytime I like it - thanks for your advice though. As you said you are writing in a public forum then I have the right to comment as I see fit. If you don't like it then pay heed to your own advice and ignore it.

I would gladly let [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] handle it and pull his hair out in the end - I guess calling someone racist and distasteful has no effect on them. Do a favor to the general public on the forum and tell them that they are not allowed to respond to your comments unless you specifically address them. I don't see that you asked for permission to speak from Asif before you jumped in on the conversation. Do as you preach....





Dude, do me a favour and stick to your promise..thats better. I'm talking to asif ..stay out of it..those messages are posted for the general public. You dont like them ...their are other 50 forums where im sure someone is willing to listen to you. Be assured ...I will not miss you in anyway !
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So when you reflect with your actions the love of Allah swt and His Rasool pbuh ...then the result is that although in Duniya you may not be the best as such - YET. (bigsmile). But spiritually the souls are satisfied and happier....These are not my words ...but coming straight from the horses mouth:)

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[h=1]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...Indians-Gallup-survey/articleshow/8044349.cms

Pakistanis happier than Indians: Gallup survey- Times of India[/h]

IANS | Apr 21, 2011, 10.07AM IST





WASHINGTON: India has ranked 71st in happiness with only 17% people describing themselves as "thriving" in a new study of well-being that gives Denmark the top spot among 124 countries surveyed.

With Danes ranked the most contented people on the planet with a whopping 72% of residents considering themselves "thriving," Sweden andCanada followed close behind, each at 69% in Gallup's 2010 Global Wellbeing Survey.

The US came in somewhat near the middle of the pack, with 59% of Americans thriving.

A majority of Indians (64%) believe they are "struggling" while 19% think they are "suffering" according to the survey. Surprisingly Pakistanis were found to be happier. Pakistan was ranked 40th with 32% "thriving". Among other neighbours, Bangladesh was placed 89 with only 13% thriving, while China was ranked 92 with only 12% happy respondents.

A median of just 21% were found to be "thriving" in the Gallup survey polling 1,000 adults, age 15 and older, in both face-to-face and telephone interviews in each country throughout 2010.

Outside of Europe and the Americas, however, other nations fared considerably less well. A mere 12% of the population considered themselves to be thriving in Egypt, followed by 6% in Kenyaand, dead last, Chad with 1%.






 

saeedafridi

Councller (250+ posts)
The survey makes sense but now lets look at the REAL REASONS FOR disparity. Mostly, it is because a Muslim Pakistani cannot mingle with the westerners at a level as a person of another faith can (drinking, socializing, visits to the strip clubs and so on and so forth). Indians for a majority of the reasons dont have this issue. Which is why they secure better positions in organizations they work. This is because of the part of indian culture which synchronizes with the west.

Samething for businesses, I have seen a lot of adult stores, bars, pubs, night clubs, pizza stores which sell pork and anything which is construed as "Haram" business activity, being run by indians, and every credit to them for doing so and no offense intended. But for a Muslim to indulge in these acitivites it is seen as clear mark of defiance of the tenents of their faith.

Alhamdolillah, you wont find muslim pakistanis or another other people of Muslim diaspora indulging en-masse in business which is construed as haram and even the bad apples have some sense of shame while they try to fit into the local culture. So in between their religion and what is allowed the Muslims do pretty well and second best in Duniya is worth it because it compensates for a better hereafter (akhira).

Another factor to be considered is that the general level of desperation seen in India are a lot higher in general than some Muslim countries and so naturally the push to do well and to assimilate into the western culture so as to escape from India for good is another VERY BIG and Compelling Reason.

Overall, during the last five years Indians have gotten a good visibility in the US media as the Us searches for a tiger to stand upto china. For this reason Indians have been made to come into the spotlight and a strategic partnership has been forged with india at a media, cultural and now defense level and we congratulate them on this. The amalgamation of the pagans with the other religions has long been predicted by our AKKA pbuh.

All this is nothing new for my AKKA pbuh already predicted this in a Hadith :

"Remember the Kuffar are one family, and the Muslims are another" - Prophet Muhammad pbuh

So when the Indians and westerns continue their love triangle we THANKFULLY bow our heads to Allah swt in Making us second best in Duniya but the BEST in Akhira.

Whenever it comes to choosing between Dunya and Akhira the rightfull muslims will always choose the later...As for the Indians we already know where they stand
(bigsmile)


You rightly said it. Thats one of the factor, that puts us behind the indians, I work at Pwc London, i have seen this, the kind of mingling between the indians and british will make u surprise, drinking, get together and dating. Thats tells alot, the british love them for being socialized with them. But to some extent i also believe that if you are technically good enough at your job or creative in your field. You can overcome that issue as a muslim. There is only one solution to that we as Pakistani need to work hard in education and R&D.Pakistan need houndreds of new universities advanced in hightech. With the likes of IIT, if we have that kind of institutions and without any political interference i believe we have very talented students in our country, all we need is commitment, dedication, hardwork and most importantly we need to have more R&D centers.