Burden of proof argument, Sharif Family is leading 2 to 1...

desan

President (40k+ posts)
Justice Asif Saeed Khosa
Justice Sheikh Azmat Saeed
Justice Ejaz Afzal Khan
Justice Ijazul Ahsan

Members of the Supreme Court bench hearing the Panamagate case on Friday expressed divergent opinions over which side shouldered the burden of proof. While Justice Asif Saeed Khosa who heads the five-judge bench wanted the onus to prove innocence to rest on Prime Minister Nawaz Sharifs family, two other members of the bench differed.

During the hearing of Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf and Jamaat-i-Islami petitions seeking the disqualification of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, Justice Khosa effectively came to the PTIs rescue when he referred to the 2006 trust deed, declaring Maryam Nawaz Safdar the trustee of her brother Hussain Nawaz, and observed that the onus to prove innocence had shifted to the respondents, i.e. the prime ministers family.

The observation came when PTI counsel Naeem Bokhari cited a number of communications, such as the June 12, 2012 letter from the British Virgin Islands Financial Investigation Agency (FIA) to Mossack Fonseca Money Laundering Reporting Officer J. Nizbeth Maduro, raising queries about Nescoll Limited and Nielson Enterprises Limited the companies that owned the four London flats.
Justice Khosa says Sharifs should prove their innocence; Justice Azmat and Justice Ejaz want PTI to furnish more evidence

The counsel also referred to Mossack Fonsecas June 2012 response, acknowledging that Nielson and Nescoll were owned by the same beneficial owner, Maryam, and that familys business spread over 60 years was the source of her wealth. The counsel also provided acknowledgement of the Samba Financial Group, Jeddah, certifying that Maryam was one of their valued customers since 2002, while highlighting that Maryam did not have the resources to buy the London flats.

She allegedly acted as a tool to launder money for her father, of whom she was a dependant, and received gifts from father and brother, he argued.

Also read: Supreme Court focus remains on Maryam Nawaz's expenditures

So many questions needed to be answered since a strong connection between Maryam Nawaz, Samba Group and Minerva Financial Services Ltd had emerged, Justice Khosa observed, wondering whether the court should utilise the services of forensic investigators to match Maryam Nawazs signatures in the trust deed and other documents.

But Justice Sheikh Azmat Saeed dissented, observing that the real issues that needed attention were the questions: whether the trust deed was an admitted, valid and effective document; whether the two children were obliged to disclose the deed under UK laws; and under what capacity Maryam was declared the trustee or the owner of these companies.

It is for you (the petitioner) to tell the court what are the principles of benami, the judge said, pointing towards Mr Bokhari, asking whether he wanted the court to lay down a judgement that all gifts such the ones received by Maryam from her father and brother at different points of time were benami.

Do not burden us to look at the law, the judge observed, adding that they still were at square one.

But Justice Khosa referred to Article 122 of the Qanoon-e-Shahadat 1984, which suggests that the burden of proving a fact rested upon the person who had the knowledge of that fact, adding that it was always difficult to acquire documents regarding offshore investments.

The judge then cited Article 161 of the same law to emphasise that the law vested powers on any judge to pose questions or order the production of any documents to discuss proper proof.

It is for the defendants to produce documents to show how they acquired these offshore companies, as well as the money trail to buy the four London flats, Justice Khosa reiterated.

Are we recording evidence?, was the observation from Justice Saeed. Why not then frame charges? Justice Khosa observed.

If we start recording evidence, then you will boycott [these proceedings], Justice Saeed observed in a lighter vein, pointing towards Naeem Bokhari.

Is it too much to ask for documents? was Justice Khosas retort.

Justice Azmat also regretted that the defendants had not filed the required documents, adding that in order to refute the evidence filed by the petitioner, they would have to bring documents to support their claims.

Justice Azmat Saeed intervened, saying that the matter would end if the defendants put the relevant documents, explaining how Mariam became the beneficial owner of the London flats, on the courts record.

At this point, another member of the bench, Justice Ejaz Afzal Khan, referred to Article 13 of the Constitution, which provides protection to the accused from bringing any witness or evidence against himself, adding that the Supreme Court was neither a trial court, nor was it seized with a civil case or inquiry at the moment.

You (the petitioner) have to satisfy us about the authenticity of the documents you have presented before the court, Justice Khan observed, adding that at this stage, it was too early to consider these documents.

Justice Saeed also reminded the PTI counsel not go to this territory since the communications he was referring to were not sent or received by you and the documents were mere photocopies.

You [cannot only] rely on the Qanoon-e-Shahadat and throw away the rest of the law and the Constitution, he said.

We are trying to find out the truth, Justice Khosa then intervened, citing the relevant Supreme Court rules. He emphasised that the court enjoyed ample authority to order the production of any evidence necessary.

Perhaps the stage when the party is required to produce the evidence has not come, Justice Khan observed, adding that they would have recourse under Article 161 of the Qanoon-e-Shahadat.

Place all your cards on the table, so that we can look at them, was Justice Khans observation.

Justice Ijazul Ahsan also observed that the petitioner had not provided any document to prove ownership of the flats prior to 2006. But Mr Bokhari kept repeating that it was for the defendants to provide these.

On Friday, PTI also submitted the transcript of an interview of Haroon Pasha the Sharifs financial adviser where he had claimed that all the records and documents about financial transactions had been provided to their lawyer.

Meanwhile, Advocate Shahid Hamid representing Maryam, Finance Minister Ishaq Dar and Capt Safdar told Dawn that he may on Monday submit a supplementary reply on behalf of Mariam to rebut the allegations that surfaced during the course of the hearing.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1306930/burden-of-proof-becomes-sticking-point-in-panama-case
 

battery low

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
[FONT=&quot]درباریوں سے کہا گیا ہے کہ عدالت میں جتنی بھی خفت اٹھانی پڑے ، باہر آ کر پورے اعتماد سے کہا کرو " پی ٹی آئ کوئی ثبوت پیش نہیں کر سکی "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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Talwar Gujjar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Yeh tau bari ziasti ha k bhonka party apnay ilzam k saboot de. Ab voh bhonkein b aur saboot b dein, isi ko double jeopardy nahein kehtay.
 

Gramscian

MPA (400+ posts)
Yeh tau bari ziasti ha k bhonka party apnay ilzam k saboot de. Ab voh bhonkein b aur saboot b dein, isi ko double jeopardy nahein kehtay.

Double jeopardy: ''Double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges and on the same facts, following a valid acquittal or conviction''.

The burden of proof in white collar crime once ownership is accepted is on the defendant.

If you had read something on the topic, it would have helped.
 

Talwar Gujjar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Double jeopardy: ''Double jeopardy is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges and on the same facts, following a valid acquittal or conviction''.

The burden of proof in white collar crime once ownership is accepted is on the defendant.

If you had read something on the topic, it would have helped.

Good points, but parhnay parhanay ko kon poochta ha, ilzam laga dia, sboot k kia zroorat, seedha seedha convict kar dau, kia mushkil ha.
 

akmal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Good points, but parhnay parhanay ko kon poochta ha, ilzam laga dia, sboot k kia zroorat, seedha seedha convict kar dau, kia mushkil ha.

جس قوٹ پہ کمینٹ کر رہے ہو اس میں یہی لکھا ہے کہ جس کی ملکیت ہے وہی ثبوت دینے کا ذمہ دار ہے لیکن یہ الزام الزام کی رٹ سے باز نہیں آنا
 

Talwar Gujjar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)

جس قوٹ پہ کمینٹ کر رہے ہو اس میں یہی لکھا ہے کہ جس کی ملکیت ہے وہی ثبوت دینے کا ذمہ دار ہے لیکن یہ الزام الزام کی رٹ سے باز نہیں آنا

Bhonkay Khan ne SC mein kaha nahein hamara kaam ilzam lagana ha, sboot dena nahein, pir aap kion bigar rahey hein.
 

akmal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Bhonkay Khan ne SC mein kaha nahein hamara kaam ilzam lagana ha, sboot dena nahein, pir aap kion bigar rahey hein.

یہ آپ نے دلیل دیتے وقت اپنی تربیت ضرور ظاہر کرنی ہوتی ہے؟ ثبوت ہمیشہ پروفیشنل ادارے اکٹھے کرتے ہیں
 

Gramscian

MPA (400+ posts)
Good points, but parhnay parhanay ko kon poochta ha, ilzam laga dia, sboot k kia zroorat, seedha seedha convict kar dau, kia mushkil ha.

No one has contested authenticity of Panama Papers. Iceland's PM's wife's name was in Panama. He had to resign. Many other ministers and public officials resigned. If Sharifs think these are 'mere allegations', why dont they sue ICIJ? Its been 8 months.
 

Talwar Gujjar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
No one has contested authenticity of Panama Papers. Iceland's PM's wife's name was in Panama. He had to resign. Many other ministers and public officials resigned. If Sharifs think these are 'mere allegations', why dont they sue ICIJ? Its been 8 months.

Cut the crap, there is nothing illegal in Panama thing about Sharifs. Nawaz Sharif's name is not even mentioned. Listen to SC remarks and PTI Attorneys' innuendo.
 
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Citizen X

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Cut the crap, there is nothing illegal in Panama thing about Sharifs. Nawaz Sharif's name is not even mentioned. Listen to SC remarks and PTI Attorneys' innuendo.
Yeh kahin Abid Sher Ali ka account to nahi ? bongiyan to wasihi maarta hai ?
 

Gramscian

MPA (400+ posts)
Cut the crap, there is nothing illegal in Panama thing about Sharifs. Nawaz Sharif's name is not even mentioned. Listen to SC remarks and PTI Attorneys' innuendo.

1. You did not answer one thing that I raised & just offer prevarications. Usual for folks with lack of solid arguments.
2. So Iceland's PM, whose wife's name is in Panama, resigned for fun? Similarly, David Cameroon, whose dead father's name is in Panama, had to explain his dead father's business in detail also did it for fun.
3. Nawaz's name is not in Panama but Maryam and Hussain's name is. Why dont they sue ICIJ? Daniyal Aziz even claimed Maryam would do so. Why not?
3. Sharif kids are so brilliant that at a very young age they became billionaires without any assistance from their daddy.
4. All Sharifs could come up with in terms of defence is: dead aba ji's parchis (no money trail i.e. black), a never heard of Qatari letter out of nowhere & siyasi bayan in national assembly.
5. You would not buy such a defence by one of your employees, let alone a 3rd time PM.

In the end, all I can say is, I respect your delusions.
 

Talwar Gujjar

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
1. You did not answer one thing that I raised & just offer prevarications. Usual for folks with lack of solid arguments.
2. So Iceland's PM, whose wife's name is in Panama, resigned for fun? Similarly, David Cameroon, whose dead father's name is in Panama, had to explain his dead father's business in detail also did it for fun.
3. Nawaz's name is not in Panama but Maryam and Hussain's name is. Why dont they sue ICIJ? Daniyal Aziz even claimed Maryam would do so. Why not?
3. Sharif kids are so brilliant that at a very young age they became billionaires without any assistance from their daddy.
4. All Sharifs could come up with in terms of defence is: dead aba ji's parchis (no money trail i.e. black), a never heard of Qatari letter out of nowhere & siyasi bayan in national assembly.
5. You would not buy such a defence by one of your employees, let alone a 3rd time PM.

In the end, all I can say is, I respect your delusions.

Anything that doesn't stand in a court of law is simply crap. There is no need for defence, when prosecution does not even have a shred of incriminating evidence.
 

Gramscian

MPA (400+ posts)
Anything that doesn't stand in a court of law is simply crap. There is no need for defence, when prosecution does not even have a shred of incriminating evidence.

True. I could not agree more with you.
Never has in history a defendant come up with such solid evidence as aba ji's parchis and Qatari chithi to explain his kid's billions.
 

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