American, UK citizens involved in mall attack: Kenya's FM

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
American, UK citizens involved in mall attack: Kenya's FM

Last Updated On 24 September,2013 About 9 hours ago

193542_28709222.jpg


More than 60 people have been killed in the assault on upscale mall, which has lasted for 3 days.


WASHINGTON – Two or three Americans and one Briton were among those who attacked a Nairobi shopping mall, Kenya’s foreign minister said.


More than 60 people have been killed in the assault on the upscale mall, which has lasted for three days. The foreign minister, Amina Mohamed, said in an interview with the Public Broadcasting Service’s NewsHour program that the Americans were 18 to 19 years old, of Somali or Arab origin and lived “in Minnesota and one other place” in the U.S. The attacker from Britain was a woman who has “done this many times before,” Mohamed said.


Self-portrait of Samantha Lewthwaite found on laptop by police. Lewthwaite, a female British terror suspect nicknamed the "White Widow," was the wife of 7/7 suicide bomber Germaine Lindsay and is rumoured to be involved in the Nairobi shopping mall massacre. ‘White Widow,’ Canadian man rumoured to be involved in Kenya mall attack.
Joanne Ball-Burgess spent more than three hours trapped in a bathroom at Nairobi s Westgate Mall after gunman took over the shopping centre on Saturday. Canadian woman recounts escape from Nairobi mall attack.

Authorities in Kenya were trying to wrap up their bloody standoff with al-Shabab, a group allied with al-Qaida.


U.S. officials said they were looking into whether any Americans were involved. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Monday the department had “no definitive evidence of the nationalities or the identities” of the attackers.


White House spokesman Ben Rhodes said U.S. officials have seen “reports coming out of al-Shabab that indicate information along those lines,” referring to possible involvement of Americans in the attack.


“But we have to run those to ground, of course,” he said. “We do monitor very carefully and have for some time been concerned about efforts by al-Shabab to recruit Americans or U.S. persons to come to Somalia.


“This is an issue that has been tracked very closely by the U.S. government, and it’s one that we’ll be looking into in the days ahead.”


There was no answer at the Kenyan Mission at the United Nations on Monday night.
Mohamed said Kenya needs to work with other governments to fight the increasing terrorist threat and “much more with the U.S and the U.K., because both the victims and the perpetrators came from Kenya, the United Kingdom and the United States. From the information we have, two or three Americans and so far I’ve heard of one Brit.”
She added: “That just goes to underline the global nature of this war that we are fighting.”

http://dunyanews.tv/index.php/en/World/193542-American-UK-citizens-involved-in-mall-attack-Ken

 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So a foreign hand is involved in kenya and its not terrorism in general.

So, if the bomber comes to Karachi from Afghanistan or Iran or India or China and blows him/herself up then it won't be considered terrorism in general?
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The difference is "indigenous" so rooted in a country for native reasons or "Planted" or imposed terrorism. What happened at the US navy base was indigenous as in general terrorism, but what happens in Pakistan is an example of Foreign or planted terrorism. e.g. the Tatoo Talibans !

Thats what I was curious about. Whats the difference between 'local terrorism' and 'foreign terrorism' and 'in general' terrorism and 'specific' terrorism.
 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The difference is "indigenous" so rooted in a country for native reasons or "Planted" or imposed terrorism. What happened at the US navy base was indigenous as in general terrorism, but what happens in Pakistan is an example of Foreign or planted terrorism. e.g. the Tatoo Talibans !


terrorism

noun\ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\: the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal





What happened at the US naval base in DC was not terrorism. It was a deranged person going around wantonly killing people to pacify his demons. Just as that teenager did in Connecticut or that crazy joker in Colorado.

I give you that this attack in Nairobi was probably not planned in Kenya and was probably planned in Somalia, UK. US and elsewhere in Europe. I don't know if I would call it planted as I am sure that they had local help.

Pakistani terrorism is local too with some foreign connections but we tend to term it foreign because we refuse to accept that its people among us who could be so cruel to go out and blow themselves up.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What I dont understand is that we have an incident at the Naval base where an armed man heartlessly killed people and that is somehow "NOT CRUEL" and "NOT terrorism" and by the way this is not the first time this has happened, a few months ago a guy charged into a school in connecticut and showered bullets on kids where 100's of innocent children were killed or injured BUt that is not cruel, the cinema shootings of innocent people having a good time being showered in Colorado is not Cruel ?? ...BUT

Yet in Pakistan, when Paid mercenaries are caught red handed be it Raymond Davis, or several guys like the one in the pic below, then why are people quick to Blame all the cruelty on Pakistanis ?? ...Why not have similar standards ??? ...Atleast in Pakistan someone may get involved in such acts out of desperation, poverty or blackmail. But in the states even thats not the case and yet those attacks happen !

Why do people have double standards ??

480719-attkder-1355691613-953-640x480.jpg



terrorism

noun\ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\: the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal





What happened at the US naval base in DC was not terrorism. It was a deranged person going around wantonly killing people to pacify his demons. Just as that teenager did in Connecticut or that crazy joker in Colorado.

I give you that this attack in Nairobi was probably not planned in Kenya and was probably planned in Somalia, UK. US and elsewhere in Europe. I don't know if I would call it planted as I am sure that they had local help.

Pakistani terrorism is local too with some foreign connections but we tend to term it foreign because we refuse to accept that its people among us who could be so cruel to go out and blow themselves up.
 

atensari

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
To prove it a Terrorist activity they have to find some link with Islam.
 
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L

Liberal Fascist

Guest
Thats what I was curious about. Whats the difference between 'local terrorism' and 'foreign terrorism' and 'in general' terrorism and 'specific' terrorism.
:lol: :lol:
Bohat Khoob !
 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What I dont understand is that we have an incident at the Naval base where an armed man heartlessly killed people and that is somehow "NOT CRUEL" and "NOT terrorism" and by the way this is not the first time this has happened, a few months ago a guy charged into a school in connecticut and showered bullets on kids where 100's of innocent children were killed or injured BUt that is not cruel, the cinema shootings of innocent people having a good time being showered in Colorado is not Cruel ?? ...BUT

Fakir bhai jaan, did you even read my post? I am the one who mentioned the Connecticut and Colorado massacres and then you turn around and give me the reference of the incidents that I provided you in my post that you have quoted me here :) Wow! It would be constructive if we pay attention to what each other is trying to say and at least pretend to read and not glaringly ignore it and then make it obvious too :) It hurts.

Anyway, all I am going to say is that please let me know who in their right mind didn't call the wanton shooting of the innocent in DC or CT or CO?
If you could provide reference of people denying that it was cruel and whose mailing address doesn't contain the words 'mental instituion.'

These acts were gruesome, horrendous, horrible, inhumane, animalistic, barbaric, fill any other similar adjectives to describe these events.

Now please go back to my post and read the definition of terrorism. You will see that its an act of targeting of innocent people with the sole purpose of instilling terror to further a political agenda/policy/viewpoint.

Hope this time you read this post before commenting on it.


Yet in Pakistan, when Paid mercenaries are caught red handed be it Raymond Davis, or several guys like the one in the pic below, then why are people quick to Blame all the cruelty on Pakistanis ?? ...Why not have similar standards ??? ...Atleast in Pakistan someone may get involved in such acts out of desperation, poverty or blackmail. But in the states even thats not the case and yet those attacks happen !

Why do people have double standards ??

480719-attkder-1355691613-953-640x480.jpg

Who let Raymond Davis in the country and who let him get out? What are those stories about Gen. Pasha sitting in the back of the courtroom making sure that he safely flies out of the country? So when you are blaming some unnamed people who have double standards do you include the Pakistani military institutions. Why didn't we try Raymond Davis in the courts and held him accountable for what he did and hang him on the mall road for taking two innocent lives? Why blame others for our own failings?

As for this tattooed animal, why didn't our media dig into it and find out who was he and where did come from and do some real work instead of gleefully discussing whats happening in Bollywood. Or better still why didn't your friends in the ISI release all the details about this guy to the media so that they don't have to do the hard work? People who are serious about stopping foreign or planted terrorism as you like to call it, do some hard work to stem the tide of attacks. As the Kenyans did by releasing information about the people involved in the attack and bringing out all the details and their backgrounds.

The terrorism has become a global phenomenon. We have to understand that instead of crying about it among ourselves as it is not going to help us much. We have to tackle the way it should be that is to find these forces supporting the terrorism in our country and naming and shaming them at every forum in the world. India cries about us sending terrorists to their country why don't we do that to India when they send people or money to do the same in our country or even US.

By the way to the point of this being global issue with people crossing borders to commit terror acts is very commonplace now. I will give you an example. A somali friend of mine who had a family home in a prime location in Mogadishu got overtaken by al-shabab. So my friend and his family were trying to regain their property. After some back channel wrangling they went to meet the al-shabab group that was occupying their house and you know who was the leader of that group? A Pakistani 'brother' as he related the story to me. Now do you think that ISI planted that guy in Al-shabab in Mogadishu?
 
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Darik

MPA (400+ posts)
We have only local terrorist, and few muslims from China or Central Asia. But Zia and his son Nawaz are the main culprits. There creation is Sipah-E-Sahaba, Lasker-E-Jhungvi, Sipah-E= Mohammadi, Punjabi Taliban etc, etc.. There are 45 to 65 different factions, Nawaz is responsible for all of them. We must wake up, all these old politicians have failed. In the next election people should elect new leaders, because in last 66 years their contribution is ZERO.
 

mian_ssg

Senator (1k+ posts)
They will probe and run it on the ground to see what were their nationalities. But for all other cases, most of the times even on the spot, they have all the evidence to link the incident to any group they deem fit.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Brother the onus of my response was not to highlight the incidents but rather as to why people ONLY think cruelty dwells in the Pakistani alone !:) That is my perogative. You have intelligently swerved away from the gist of my argument.

I appreciate you posted acts of terrorism in the US but what you failed to do was a fair comparison among acts of terror in the US and Pakistan and then decide for yourself between what is "general terror" or "planted foreign terrorism" with a purpose to start a civil war in Pakistan.

Lets not let get sidetracked by bringing in irrelevant topics here. General Pasha or the Military was not the ONE that let Raymond Davis go it was the Judiciary. On one hand we want democracy and the military to not play a role in politics BUT then when our judiciary and political government does something stupid as is the case here our minds instead of blaming the culprits at hand are quick to somehow link all of it to the military.

I'm not aware of what acquaintance you have at a personal level about the Kenyan tragedy, but Im just going by the news source up there :)

Fakir bhai jaan, did you even read my post? I am the one who mentioned the Connecticut and Colorado massacres and then you turn around and give me the reference of the incidents that I provided you in my post that you have quoted me here :) Wow! It would be constructive if we pay attention to what each other is trying to say and at least pretend to read and not glaringly ignore it and then make it obvious too :) It hurts.

Anyway, all I am going to say is that please let me know who in their right mind didn't call the wanton shooting of the innocent in DC or CT or CO?
If you could provide reference of people denying that it was cruel and whose mailing address doesn't contain the words 'mental instituion.'

These acts were gruesome, horrendous, horrible, inhumane, animalistic, barbaric, fill any other similar adjectives to describe these events.

Now please go back to my post and read the definition of terrorism. You will see that its an act of targeting of innocent people with the sole purpose of instilling terror to further a political agenda/policy/viewpoint.

Hope this time you read this post before commenting on it.




Who let Raymond Davis in the country and who let him get out? What are those stories about Gen. Pasha sitting in the back of the courtroom making sure that he safely flies out of the country? So when you are blaming some unnamed people who have double standards do you include the Pakistani military institutions. Why didn't we try Raymond Davis in the courts and held him accountable for what he did and hang him on the mall road for taking two innocent lives? Why blame others for our own failings?

As for this tattooed animal, why didn't our media dig into it and find out who was he and where did come from and do some real work instead of gleefully discussing whats happening in Bollywood. Or better still why didn't your friends in the ISI release all the details about this guy to the media so that they don't have to do the hard work? People who are serious about stopping foreign or planted terrorism as you like to call it, do some hard work to stem the tide of attacks. As the Kenyans did by releasing information about the people involved in the attack and bringing out all the details and their backgrounds.

The terrorism has become a global phenomenon. We have to understand that instead of crying about it among ourselves as it is not going to help us much. We have to tackle the way it should be that is to find these forces supporting the terrorism in our country and naming and shaming them at every forum in the world. India cries about us sending terrorists to their country why don't we do that to India when they send people or money to do the same in our country or even US.

By the way to the point of this being global issue with people crossing borders to commit terror acts is very commonplace now. I will give you an example. A somali friend of mine who had a family home in a prime location in Mogadishu got overtaken by al-shabab. So my friend and his family were trying to regain their property. After some back channel wrangling they went to meet the al-shabab group that was occupying their house and you know who was the leader of that group? A Pakistani 'brother' as he related the story to me. Now do you think that ISI planted that guy in Al-shabab in Mogadishu?
 

mrk123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I don't want to belabor the point but I guess a response is in order.

Brother the onus of my response was not to highlight the incidents but rather as to why people ONLY think cruelty dwells in the Pakistani alone !:) That is my perogative. You have intelligently swerved away from the gist of my argument.

I am swerving away from the argument? Which argument? IF you go back the whole discussion started with your confusing, to say the least, definition of terrorism.

I asked you as to who thinks that the insane incidents of violence in the US are not cruel? I am still waiting for a response. Then you blame me for a 'swerving away' from the discussion at hand.

You can make all the statements you wish to make. Who am I to stop you but making some random statements in the middle of a discussion is confusing as hell.

I appreciate you posted acts of terrorism in the US but what you failed to do was a fair comparison among acts of terror in the US and Pakistan and then decide for yourself between what is "general terror" or "planted foreign terrorism" with a purpose to start a civil war in Pakistan.

I fail to compare the acts in the US that we mentioned and the acts of terror in Pakistan because they can't be compared. Again, terrorism by its definition is an act to instill terror to make a political statement. The nutters who killed innocent people in the US were killing because they are cuckoo. They don't make a statement explaining their acts of terror - in fact in most cases they end their own lives because they are so sick in their mind. Now the bombing in Boston marathon can be compared to the bombing in the church or the attack on shrines or mosques. They are comparable since the perpetrators almost always claim responsibility and make a political statement justifying their acts.

Lets not let get sidetracked by bringing in irrelevant topics here. General Pasha or the Military was not the ONE that let Raymond Davis go it was the Judiciary.

So, only you can be accorded the privilege to bring up irrelevant topics during a conversation? If you recall from just two posts ago you brought up Raymond Davis and its relevant to bring up who was responsible for him being present in Pakistan and who accorded him a convenient escape. Just in case you are not privy to some facts then here is a link to read up on. I am still waiting to hear if Government of Pakistan, the military or Gen. Pasha sued NY Times for defamation. Just read the story and let me know what role did Gen Pasha play.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/magazine/raymond-davis-pakistan.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

On one hand we want democracy and the military to not play a role in politics BUT then when our judiciary and political government does something stupid as is the case here our minds instead of blaming the culprits at hand are quick to somehow link all of it to the military.

Oh, the naivete! Everyone in Pakistani establishment is responsible but its a hard FACT that some are more culpable than others. If you don't want to know then its your choice. You can pick and choose as you want just as you do during a discussion.

I'm not aware of what acquaintance you have at a personal level about the Kenyan tragedy, but Im just going by the news source up there :)

I am not sure what are you trying to say here so I would not like to venture a guess.

Again, you are free to think what you think and weave a narrative that you believe in but there are these little things called facts that may come in the way.
 
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drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
why not blame it on Pakistani Taliban...than launch an operation against them as soon as possible..use your brains "seculars.or std,s and alcohol ate your brain?
 

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