Allama Iqbal's views about democracy. And still we advocate this.

aqeel813

Minister (2k+ posts)
Here is how Iqbal sees jamhooriat but we still wanna stick with it.


گریز از طرزِ جمہوری، غلامِ پختہ کاری شو

کہ از مغزِ دو صد خر عقلِ انسانی نمی آید


Mje aik aur shair yad aa gya. (But, I dont remember whose is it.)


"Jamhooriat wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha k jis mein...
Bandon ko gina jata ha, tola nahin jata..."
 
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LeftBrain

MPA (400+ posts)
sahee shair he

Jamhoorait wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha ke jis main
Bandon ko gina kartey hain, tola naheen kartey

and by the way all of those who love Iqbal and also love Pakistan, listen to Iqbal himslef

In Taazaa khudaaon main bara sab se WATAN hey
Jo perehan is ka hey wo millat ka kafan hey

and also

Saarey jahan se acha hindostan hamara
Ham bulbulain hain is ki, yeh gulsitan hamara
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Here is how Iqbal sees jamhooriat but we still wanna stick with it.


گریز از طرزِ جمہوری، غلامِ پختہ کاری شو

کہ از مغزِ دو صد خر عقلِ انسانی نمی آید


Mje aik aur shair yad aa gya. (But, I dont remember whose is it.)


"Jamhooriat wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha k jis mein...
Bandon ko gina jata ha, tola nahin jata..."

Yeh bhi shaed Iqbal hi ka hai
 

Whats Up Doc

Councller (250+ posts)
Here is how Iqbal sees jamhooriat but we still wanna stick with it.


گریز از طرزِ جمہوری، غلامِ پختہ کاری شو

کہ از مغزِ دو صد خر عقلِ انسانی نمی آید


Mje aik aur shair yad aa gya. (But, I dont remember whose is it.)


"Jamhooriat wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha k jis mein...
Bandon ko gina jata ha, tola nahin jata..."

Allow me to respectful disagree with Alama Iqball. This is not democracy here is democracy according to me:

Jamhooriat wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha k jis mein...

Banday ko tole ke, voton se nawza jata hai

Alama Iqball has very wisely said WHEN:

Har shakh pey ullo bathia ho tou,

Anjam-e-Gulistan kya hoga.


When there is ullu at every shakh doen't matter what kind of ?????crasy there is everyone loose
 
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rolnrol

MPA (400+ posts)
“Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.”
Oscar Wilde (Irish Poet, Novelist, Dramatist and Critic, 1854-1900)

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”
Winston Churchill (British Orator, Author and Prime Minister during World War II. 1874-1965)

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”
Winston Churchill (British Orator, Author and Prime Minister during World War II. 1874-1965)

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
Thomas Jefferson (American 3rd US President (1801-09). Author of the Declaration of Independence. 1762-1826)

“Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”
John Adams (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
Thomas Jefferson (American 3rd US President (1801-09). Author of the Declaration of Independence. 1762-1826)

“Fear is the foundation of most governments.”
John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)

“Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.”
Henry Louis Mencken (American humorous Journalist and Critic of American life who influenced US fiction through the 1920s, 1880-1956)

“Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.”
George Bernard Shaw (Irish literary Critic, Playwright and Essayist. 1925 Nobel Prize for Literature, 1856-1950)

“Democracy means government by the uneducated, while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.”
G. K. Chesterton quotes (English born Gabonese Critic, Essayist, Novelist and Poet, 1874-1936)

“Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner”
James Bovard

“Monarchy degenerates into tyranny, aristocracy into oligarchy, and democracy into savage violence and chaos”
Polybius (Greek statesman and historian, 200-118bc)

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
John Adams (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)
 

leboheme

Citizen
It is so disheartening to see and so many of my countrymen believe that individual voice, individual freedom, rule of law, and other basic human rights are not important and not needed.

In the posts some of my friends have quoted Allama Iqbal, and one of my friends has given quotes from various historic figures talking against democracy............

Before we answer the question of whether we should have democracy or not, lets first ask what actually democrcay is: In my humble opinion democracy is a system in which peopel are aware and active (politically) to change the leaders when the leaders dont do what they were supposed to do. So basically the the single most important thing is that peopel are "ETERNALLY VIGILANT" and keep eye on the rulers.

The quotes from international historical figures are very compelling but has anyone seen that almost all of them are from people who belong to democratic countries i.e. the American presidents, British thinkers and prime ministers and of course the Greek philosopher. If democracy was so bad then why do they still have it?

Quotes form Allama Iqbal are nice too. But tell me without understanding Iqbal's complete philosophy how can you just put up a few excerpts and deduce that he was against democracy?
With all due respect to all who actually quoted Iqbal, Iqbal's poetry was far to complex to be interpreted or undestood after reading just a few verses. For example, he also talked about "khudi" and "mard-i-momin". I dont know what do you understand by khudi but I think that if you have khudi then you would also have an independent voice and you would also have the will and strenght of character to say what you want. I also dont think that mard-imomim as seen by Iqbal was someone who would bow down to corrupt rulers and not defy them.

Why dont we take this message from Iqbal that he wanted us to have integrity, independence, voice, awareness. I believe that same message is given to us by Islam, why do you think that Islam puts so much stress on education and understanding the world and the religion. Do you really think that someone who understands the world and religion and is a thinking person can really be happy when he has no voice.

Now lets come to the main issue: why is democracy bad for us i.e. Pakistanis?

I am a Pakistani, and I love my country, but here is what I think: we as nation that lets these corrupt, criminals leaders rule us either in the shape of a military dictator or in the shape of a political dictator. We sit back and watch them plunder the resources of our country and we dont do anything about it. In elections less that 25% people vote (tell me is this expression of khudi by the mard-i-momin). When these vultures are in power we use our connections to get the most out them. We dont come out on streets and tell them to get off the seats of power and do something about us. We sit on our behinds and wait for someone to come and deliver us from these *******s..........In my opinion for people like us there is a message in Quran, when God Almighty says that I put on nations the type of leaders they deserve.

Why dont we get of our behinds and do something about it instead of cribbing about it.....180 million people cannot get rid of a few thousand usurpers. If we cant do that then we deserve what we get and to tell you the truth even if you can come up with the best form of government the people of Pakistan will still have nothing.

For God's sake wake up.............its still not too late
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
The best definition of democracy is:

Demagh + ki + kharabi = Democrazy

its shitty system where govt keeps taking freedom away keep imposing Rothschild and Church of Satan
 

drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Here is how Iqbal sees jamhooriat but we still wanna stick with it.


گریز از طرزِ جمہوری، غلامِ پختہ کاری شو

کہ از مغزِ دو صد خر عقلِ انسانی نمی آید

Mje aik aur shair yad aa gya. (But, I dont remember whose is it.)


"Jamhooriat wo tarz-e-hakoomat ha k jis mein...
Bandon ko gina jata ha, tola nahin jata..."

you wrote faarse shair of iqbal but forgot to translate it

this shair means that
"it is a must to avoid democracy as even two thousand donkeys cant reach the wisdom of a single wise man!
 

drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
iqbal said in above shair that

Keep away from Democracy: Follow the perfect maumin man,
For the intellect of two thousand donkeys cannot bring forth a single mans thought.

iqbal also said that
Democracy is a system where people are counted not weighed.[lvii]

and as we know iqbal was great muslim philosopher he is even famous in arab countries for his love of islam and islamic principles

pakistan is suffering because of this cancerous democracy where an illiterate mans vote carries same strength as vote of doctor abdul qadeer like sceintist or some pious muslim
an illiterate mans vote can be boght for 5o rs and we can imagine what sort of government it brings on us
even the so called literate people of pakistan vote like donkeys.they vote for caste sectarianism and creed.they never ever vote for a pious man of character

so till we keep trying this democracy our country will get damaged more and more till we no longer remain a nation
time to change is no
i know that islam haters in pakistan hate zia ul haq and will attack me here again but its a fact that zia offered religious parties that by law he aboloishes western democracy in pakistan and bring an islamic khilafat system here and khalifa be chosen by a shura of selected ulema of known good character.
but "democracy loving mullahs" rejected his proposal

now see how blessed is islamic khilafat.in our neighbourhood afghanistan mullah umar craeted an islamic khilafat.in his rule the chief justice of afghan supreme court went to supreme court on his old bicycle and his sons did labour work in kabul! mullah omar ate dry bread with water even on eid days and senior taliban leaders who were government ministers wore clothes which were torn!they had all the treasure of afghanistan at their disposal but fear of alalh did not let them touch even a ruppee of national money
tahts why kufar and munafiqeen ended this government of taliban in afghanistan so that this may not become an example for other nations and if islamic khilafat spread throughout muslim world it meant that muslims will again achieve old days of glory when they ruled the world
may allah punish the kufar but may allah punish the muslim munafiqeen million times more than kufars as these peoploe stabbed islam from wthin
 

leboheme

Citizen
Why doesnt somebody give an alternate system..........no human system is perfect, God given system is perfect but because its implementation is going to be done by human beings then how do you think that would be perfect............if so many people dont like democracy then give an alternate system that they think will work...
 

mrbaig

Senator (1k+ posts)
Allama was not always right.i.e he said "Juda ho deeN siyasat sey to reh jati hey changezi",while it is now proved that relegion must be kept away from siyasat or law of state.When ever tried to relegion is used to constitute the state law,the law decreased the value of relegion as in present era relegion developed anarchy.
These all things like Khilafat,Shariyat,Nizam e Mustufa etc are not feasable now.State must be secular,having no business with any faith.
 

drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Allama was not always right.i.e he said "Juda ho deeN siyasat sey to reh jati hey changezi",while it is now proved that relegion must be kept away from siyasat or law of state.When ever tried to relegion is used to constitute the state law,the law decreased the value of relegion as in present era relegion developed anarchy.
These all things like Khilafat,Shariyat,Nizam e Mustufa etc are not feasable now.State must be secular,having no business with any faith.

well its your views.but we pakistanis majority are muslims and your views do not count as you seem to be belonging to minority
so
we muslims believe that islam or allahs law should be supreme in all forms of governance.
simple.

allah sayus in quran that

And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers as they do not act on Allah's Laws)
Alameda 44


so mr baig we muslims of pakistan are not kafir ( as described by Allah above)
so we will adhere to what iqbal said! that is
juda ho deen siyaasat say to reh jaati hai changaizi
 

atensari

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
These all things like Khilafat,Shariyat,Nizam e Mustufa etc are not feasable now.State must be secular,having no business with any faith.

State must be secular for what:

gay/lesbians marriages
Free sex
every year increasing # of
bas tards
[FONT=&quot] OR
banning mosque minars
banning hajab
burning Quran Majeed
drawing Muhmmad SAW

[/FONT]
 
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aqeel813

Minister (2k+ posts)
you wrote faarse shair of iqbal but forgot to translate it

this shair means that
"it is a must to avoid democracy as even two thousand donkeys cant reach the wisdom of a single wise man!

Is it hundred or thousand? :)



State must be secular for what:

gay/lesbians marriages
Free sex
every year increasing # of
bas tards
[FONT=&quot] OR
banning mosque minars
banning hajab
burning Quran Majeed
drawing Muhmmad SAW

[/FONT]

Now, this is an appropriate question. I hope mrbaig would like to answer it.
 

Whats Up Doc

Councller (250+ posts)
It is so disheartening to see and so many of my countrymen believe that individual voice, individual freedom, rule of law, and other basic human rights are not important and not needed.

In the posts some of my friends have quoted Allama Iqbal, and one of my friends has given quotes from various historic figures talking against democracy............

Before we answer the question of whether we should have democracy or not, lets first ask what actually democrcay is: In my humble opinion democracy is a system in which peopel are aware and active (politically) to change the leaders when the leaders dont do what they were supposed to do. So basically the the single most important thing is that peopel are "ETERNALLY VIGILANT" and keep eye on the rulers.

The quotes from international historical figures are very compelling but has anyone seen that almost all of them are from people who belong to democratic countries i.e. the American presidents, British thinkers and prime ministers and of course the Greek philosopher. If democracy was so bad then why do they still have it?

Quotes form Allama Iqbal are nice too. But tell me without understanding Iqbal's complete philosophy how can you just put up a few excerpts and deduce that he was against democracy?
With all due respect to all who actually quoted Iqbal, Iqbal's poetry was far to complex to be interpreted or undestood after reading just a few verses. For example, he also talked about "khudi" and "mard-i-momin". I dont know what do you understand by khudi but I think that if you have khudi then you would also have an independent voice and you would also have the will and strenght of character to say what you want. I also dont think that mard-imomim as seen by Iqbal was someone who would bow down to corrupt rulers and not defy them.

Why dont we take this message from Iqbal that he wanted us to have integrity, independence, voice, awareness. I believe that same message is given to us by Islam, why do you think that Islam puts so much stress on education and understanding the world and the religion. Do you really think that someone who understands the world and religion and is a thinking person can really be happy when he has no voice.

Now lets come to the main issue: why is democracy bad for us i.e. Pakistanis?

I am a Pakistani, and I love my country, but here is what I think: we as nation that lets these corrupt, criminals leaders rule us either in the shape of a military dictator or in the shape of a political dictator. We sit back and watch them plunder the resources of our country and we dont do anything about it. In elections less that 25% people vote (tell me is this expression of khudi by the mard-i-momin). When these vultures are in power we use our connections to get the most out them. We dont come out on streets and tell them to get off the seats of power and do something about us. We sit on our behinds and wait for someone to come and deliver us from these *******s..........In my opinion for people like us there is a message in Quran, when God Almighty says that I put on nations the type of leaders they deserve.

Why dont we get of our behinds and do something about it instead of cribbing about it.....180 million people cannot get rid of a few thousand usurpers. If we cant do that then we deserve what we get and to tell you the truth even if you can come up with the best form of government the people of Pakistan will still have nothing.

For God's sake wake up.............its still not too late

(clap) In summary If the voter is Ullu (cry) Good to know a man who understands democracy.