What if China was not Pakistan ally ?

[Mughal1]

That by definition makes it a badly written book. Good writers write in a way that delivers its message clearly.

We have deciphered Hierloglyphs from ancient Egypt but we are still unable to decipher 20% of the Quran.

Its claimed to be written in Arabic, yet the main language of Middle East in that time was Aramaic and lingusts cannot even come to a conclusion of which language and how many languages it was written in let alone try to understand what it is saying.

Dear vitamin c, what can I say but that again and again you are making nonsensical remarks about the quran whereby you are only and only exposing your own ignorance, not only your utter ignorance but extreme foolishness as well.

God's creation and revelations are perfect. There is nothing wrong with them. If there is anything wrong, it is with your very own way of looking at things. If I do anything on purpose or purposefully I will do it for my own purposes or reasons not yours or of anyone else. You want to read book of God but you want to find in it what you want and not what the book contains. This is not the way at all to read any book. Why God tells human beings to read TAOOZ and TASMIYA before reading the rest of the quran? See if you can answer this question. Let see how intelligent you are. It is important because there in lies answers to your wrong approach to the quranic understanding.

I know already, you cannot answer any of my questions about the quran unless and until you read my posts and understand them. Why not? Because you are not a thinker who reads information to make proper sense of it. To criticise the quran you need to reach the thinking level the quran requires. It is not that humans are not capable of thinking at that level but most people are like you who do not want to put the needed effort in learning things about the quran. They are simply put just talkers of nonsense. Go to youtube etc and see how people are using this facility for wasting time of each other.

The reason people like you fail themselves about the quran is because they start with the notion that the quran is of no significance or consequences so why bother wasting our time on it. Otherwise the proper understanding of the quran is certainly within reach of humanity and I can prove it with my understanding of it. This is why you can try me by discussing with me about a few very short soorahs of the quran as I said already. After that if you are sensible enough you will start studying the quran all by yourself. You will not need me to explain it to you any more.

It means we human beings need to educate ourselves to a level whereby we could understand things as they ought to be understood ie in context of their very own purpose. Once we do that, all things start making perfect sense. The quran was revealed by God for serving his purpose, not ours. All we need to do is study it as it ought to be studied and then decide whether it makes sense or it does not. This is why I need to ask any and every person who claims the quran is nonsense to see if they even know the way to study the quran and almost every time I find that they don't.

It is not fault of God if you do everything else but do not do what you really need to do to understand creation of God and revelation of God properly. All people are born knowing nothing at all but only those learn about things who educate themselves, not the ones who keep themselves ignorant and stupid about things which they must learn and do or their lives will be a living hell by their own making.

Just as we can decode universal realities to some degree by educating ourselves, we can do exactly the same by studying the revelation of God. All we need to do is study the quran in light of real world realities and study the real world realities in light of the quran and see how they fit together. If they do we have found the real knowledge and if they don't then forever we are damned no matter what else we do because we will always remain confused and puzzled.

In order to explain things I have asked you to translate a few very, very short soorahs of the quran to see how easy or hard the quranic text is to make proper sense of it. You have not bothered to do that but you are hell bent upon making nonsense remarks about the quran all the time. As I see it, this cannot be mindset, attitude and behaviour of a sensible person. You want to talk about the book yet you do not want to know what the book has to say about itself and people as well as other things.

If you observe realities of this world, only those people learn sense of making proper sense of things who are interested in doing that and all the rest are suffering painfully not because of God but because of their own wrong doings. God has created people and things for his purpose and he revealed his messages for mankind to explain his purpose to them as well as the way they can fulfil that purpose successfully.

If we human beings do not want to know these things then it is up to us because he has made us with ability to choose what we wish to do with our lives. All he has done in that case is warned us clearly that if we will not live the way we are supposed to then things are not going to work out for us and we are not going to be happy about it. So you can see how happy you are the way you have sorted out your life and the rest of humanity as it has chosen to live instead of living a purposeful life.

So remember we can only make sense of thing we are interested in and not of things we are not bothered with. Likewise if we are interested in making proper sense of the text in the quran then we will have to discover the way to do so just as we try to do for understanding this world in which we live and die. There is no free lunch if you like. What I have learned, I had to work very, very hard for it. God has already provided for us all we needed in order to do what God wanted us to do. If we will not use God provided things appropriately and as a result we end up in painful suffering then it is not fault of God but our own.

The bottom line is you are not living in peace otherwise you won't be here arguing with others. Likewise things are hard for me as well because I want to share my understanding of things with others. If we both want thing to be really good then we cannot be successful unless we both try and understand each other's point of view fully and then compare both the views and see which one is better and most effective for both of us to adopt.

This is why your proper understanding of the quran is vitally important just as it is very important for me to understand science and philosophy and the rest that goes with it. I understand your point of view but you have no idea about my point of view so who is at fault here? You are pushing your point of view without taking my point of view into account where as I am taking aboard your point of view as well as my own. This is why I know your stance is wrong and mine is right but you don't because you are missing half of the information which you ought to know before you dismiss my point of view or my stance as I do yours.

This is why you should go over my posts and see what I am really saying there about things we differ about. Once you will do that you will come to know what you are missing in your arguments which makes your arguments unacceptable. Once you discover that criterion and accept it, we will both be on the very same page.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

God's creation and revelations are perfect. There is nothing wrong with them. If there is anything wrong, it is with your very own way of looking at things.

If 99% of readers don’t understand the book then it’s the writer’s fault not the reader. Everyone has their own theory on how to read it And now we are left here arguing which one is right.

Not only is it difficult to understand, it’s full of redundancies, many stories repeated over and over wasting time and space.

There is one paragraph here it takes 5 lines to explain something that could have been explained in 4-5 words because the writer wasted lines to make it sound poetic.

From all the popular books I have read, Quran ranks at the bottom in-terms of writing. Allah could have at least got a lesson in literature from a writer before undertaking a task that was obviously beyond him.

 

[Mughal1]

If 99% of readers don’t understand the book then it’s the writer’s fault not the reader. Everyone has their own theory on how to read it And now we are left here arguing which one is right.

Not only is it difficult to understand, it’s full of redundancies, many stories repeated over and over wasting time and space.

There is one paragraph here it takes 5 lines to explain something that could have been explained in 4-5 words because the writer wasted lines to make it sound poetic.

From all the popular books I have read, Quran ranks at the bottom in-terms of writing. Allah could have at least got a lesson in literature from a writer before undertaking a task that was obviously beyond him.

Dear vitamin c, it is because you think the book is not worth reading that I am asking you to let us discuss your understanding of the book by starting with a few simple soorahs. This will prove who is right and who is wrong ie you or me. So kindly give me your interpretation of the soorahs I have asked for. This will save both of us from wasting time in useless exchange. There is saying keh ghoda bhi haazir hai aur maidaan bhi.

You have lied about 99% people because you also know that literacy rate is not that good in the world. A lot of people do not understand what you understand. Moreover read HERE to see what people know and what they don't know and why that is the case.

regards and all the best

 

[Vitamin_C]

You have lied about 99% people because you also know that literacy rate is not that good in the world.

What does that have to do with literacy rate. I was talking about people who have read the book including myself cant understand it.

 

[Vitamin_C]

So kindly give me your interpretation of the soorahs I have asked for.

Let me ask you a simple question. There are thousands of religious books out there from Gita to the Mormon Bible. Why have you made up your mind to waste time on this specific book?

I think our conflict is not over the book itself but the reason to waste time on the book.

You see, intelligent people only make a conclusion after studying evidence. There is no reason for me in the first place to think that there is an intelligent God who takes interests in humans. Then what would be my motivation to try to interpret this book?

Dogmatic people on the otherhand make a conclusion first (That God exists and he specifically wrote the Quran and not the other thousands of books out there). Then they try to twist evidence, hold the book upside down, side ways and try to make meanings that are not even there.

So let me direct this challenge back to you. Using your own interpretation, find me a single thing in the Quran that was not known to man 1400 years ago or that would point to the divine origin of the book?

 

[Mughal1]

What does that have to do with literacy rate. I was talking about people who have read the book including myself cant understand it.

Dear vitamin c, our whole discussion was about understanding of things ie how we are born knowing absolutely nothing at all and we have to struggle to get to know things.

This is why I suggested that you learn to understand the quran just like learning everything else then you will have no problems in understanding the quran. So if you will not learn to understand the quran then you will not understand it. We human beings only know what we learn and we don't know what we do not learn. However it is entirely up to you when you want to learn something I can't force you to learn what you don't want to learn.

regards and all the best

 

[Mughal1]

Let me ask you a simple question. There are thousands of religious books out there from Gita to the Mormon Bible. Why have you made up your mind to waste time on this specific book?

I think our conflict is not over the book itself but the reason to waste time on the book.

You see, intelligent people only make a conclusion after studying evidence. There is no reason for me in the first place to think that there is an intelligent God who takes interests in humans. Then what would be my motivation to try to interpret this book?

Dogmatic people on the otherhand make a conclusion first (That God exists and he specifically wrote the Quran and not the other thousands of books out there). Then they try to twist evidence, hold the book upside down, side ways and try to make meanings that are not even there.

So let me direct this challenge back to you. Using your own interpretation, find me a single thing in the Quran that was not known to man 1400 years ago or that would point to the divine origin of the book?

Dear vitamin c, we have discussed exactly these things already, please revisit the threads and posts. You will get your answers. This is why I have been requesting you all along to see what we have discussed already. I do not see any point in repeating same all over again in this thread. Remember it was my claim that the quran was 100% scientific. I explained how that is the case. It is because we human beings are scientists in our very being. Science did not start today rather we are born scientists.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

This is why I suggested that you learn to understand the quran just like learning everything else then you will have no problems in understanding the quran.

Why the Quran, there are 100,000s of books on this both secular and religious. Thats what I cant wrap my brain around. Woh sari kitabein choorh ka app ka kaanta Quran par Q atak gaya?

It seems like your thought process is irrational. You started out with a conclusion rather than starting with the evidence. Did you read and rule out all the other books first or are you stuck on Quran because thats the religion you were born in??

 

[Mughal1]

Why the Quran, there are 100,000s of books on this both secular and religious. Thats what I cant wrap my brain around. Woh sari kitabein choorh ka app ka kaanta Quran par Q atak gaya?

It seems like your thought process is irrational. You started out with a conclusion rather than starting with the evidence. Did you read and rule out all the other books first or are you stuck on Quran because thats the religion you were born in??

Dear vitamin c, please try and remember we have discussed all these points in detail already. Remember, I told you, why the quran deserved proper examination. It was because there is no other book than the quran in the world today which claims to be word of God. The quran is the only book in the world which makes such a claim and does so repeatedly. People like hindus or parsies or jews or christians claim whatever they like about their books but their very books contradict them. In fact this is why they behave towards the quran the way they do. They have no idea what the quran is about.

Leave others aside even those who claim to be muslim have little or no idea what the quran is really about.

This is why if you sit and examine any other book as a book from God then you are truly wasting your time. You prove to me if there is any other book which makes same claim as the quran. There is none. It is this your very reason you too are taking the quran just like any other book when it is not. It seems you have been ignoring my answers to your questions instead of paying your full attention to them.

Also I still remember explaining to you about how we should start arguments and why. I supposed both existence and nonexistence of God and finally we arrived at why examining the quran is absolutely necessary. This is why we are arguing over proper understanding of the quran. This is why please go reread my posts and threads in which we have discussed the quran and deen of islam already. As I said already I see no point in repeating things all over again over here.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The quran is the only book in the world which makes such a claim and does so repeatedly.

So whenever someone claims something do you always automatically assume it to be true or is your bias specifically towards the Quran because you were born in a Muslim family?

I mean there are thousands of creation stories out there from Africans to Native Americans to Chinese, Greek and Ancient Egyptian, you didnt assume them to be true but you picked the Islamic one, my question is why? Why even go to the Quran?

Sure its making a claim but all the other stories are also making their own claims. Why are you so biased towards this specific claim over the others? Why dont you believe that the Earth was created by a giant ape on top of a mountain in Africa? Its also a claim so if you automatically believed Quran's claim, why not that one?

 

[Mughal1]

So whenever someone claims something do you always automatically assume it to be true or is your bias specifically towards the Quran because you were born in a Muslim family?[/SIZE=5]

Dear vitamin c, please go back to our discussion about existence or nonexistence of God. I clearly explained there that there are only and only two possibilities a)God exists and b)God does not exist. If there is any other possibility kindly let me know because I don't. I am of the view that on our own we human beings can never prove in any way that God does not exist. So there is no point in arguing about God does not exist on that basis.

This is how we ended up with talking about possibility of existence of God. However on our own we human beings can never prove existence of God no matter what. So again there is no point in talking about existence of God on that basis either. However, we cannot leave things there because it is an issue of such vital importance. This is what forces us to look for proof of existence or nonexistence of God some other way whereby we could find answer to this question with reasonable certainty.

To do so we need to understand what is proof and proving about. Any proof and proving method is decided by nature of the claim and what human beings are naturally capable of getting and using as proof. It is because if God does exist then he must have left for us a window open to decide this issue once and for all. Now if there is a window left open for us by God then what is that window? This window is revelation from God.

The good thing about this method is that if we fail to prove existence of God by this method then we automatically disprove existence of God for all our practical purposes ie whether God exists or not does not matters for us any more because God whose existence cannot be proven beyond any reasonable doubt cannot be of any use for us human beings. However it is up to God to provide us with a reasonable method and the evidence or proof and up to us human beings to check out that method and the provided evidences for proving existence of God.

So the question is, what is the method provided by God himself for proving his own existence to us and what is the evidence for it? The method God has used is not direct but indirect ie we each have not been provided with things by God himself directly to prove his existence but indirectly which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that God is behind whatever is going on in the alleged creation and the alleged revelation of God. It is because this is the way God chose to express himself ie by way of creation and revelation. This is why they are called acts of God. Therefore the creation is the evidence and the revelation is the explanation of it.

This is why unless we educate ourselves to the level required for discussing these things we cannot make sense of anything at all, be it the creation or the revelation. This is why ignorance and stupidity should not be given room in the human mind and if any people do that they are stupid and enemies of God and humanity. Evidence is useless without a good explanation that turns it into a proof. Evidence is just a lifeless object and explanation is what brings it to life and makes it useful and purposeful and decisive or conclusive as a proof. Any explanation that is open ended therefore leaves people mentally suspended or doubtful or in lurch or in suspense, is no explanation at all till it is complete or perfect or conclusive or decisive.

You keep saying we should follow the evidence. What do you mean by it? The object or the explanation? If you say the evidence means an object then as I explained just now, it is only an object or thing. It does not and cannot take us anywhere because it on its own is a none living and none thinking thing ie it is an inactive thing or an object or fact or factor and nothing more and it cannot be anything more than that. None living things do not move so how can they take us any where? They are simply put just there. It is for us human beings to make sense of them and we can only do that because we are not just living beings but also capable of thinking as well as capable of doing so because God has endowed us with brains and senses as well as bodies to educate ourselves and then start judging things after becoming wise enough to judge things. So we come up with our own explanations of what we call facts or objects or things and that way we lead ourselves to wherever our explanations lead us. This is how if we misconstrue or mis-construct the evidences or misplace or misposition or misarrange things relative to each other then we end misjudging them so we end up with a wrong decision or conclusion ie we end up with wrong explanation of things.

So what I have explained here for you, I hope you can clearly see from that, that the best possible explanation of the related things is the proof not the things all by themselves. Of course things are equally important factor in this case because if there were no things then we could not talk about them because there was no need for doing so. Only because things exist therefore they become evidences and because they are evidences therefore they need to be explained to the best of explainers' God given abilities ie sincerely and faithfully after a lot of study. So if we do not use our God given abilities as God intended then we are going to end up in lots of problems and we will remain in those problems till we decide to use our God given abilities properly as well as God given things.

I hope now you understand why we need reasonable explanations and not just any nonsense that comes to our mind. Each time we need any explanation we need to have a case or a reason to carry out our research to find out related things to reach our conclusion about things. For example, police does not start an inquiry into something till the need arises ie a case has to come to the notice of the police or it has to be brought to the notice of the police only then police can act upon it. Likewise existence or nonexistence of God issue only becomes vitally important because it comes to our notice or it is brought to our notice. This is how our arguments start about it.

The while we are kids after being born not knowing anything at all God is not an important issue for us. However as we grow and learn things, God issue takes over our lives for one reason or another. This is how we start gathering evidences and explanations about this issue in order to reach the best possible conclusion we can. This issue can only and only be solved the way I have explained it and no other way. If you or anyone else has any other better way please share. I have not come across any way which could be proven workable. The method I have stated works in both cases ie in case of existence of God as well as in case of nonexistence of God. Because we on our own first suppose nonexistence of God and try to prove it but we fail to prove nonexistence of God. Then we on our own suppose existence of God and again we fail to prove existence of God.

Then we bring in revelation of God idea to solve this puzzle and we can clearly see that it works. It is because if the alleged God sent revelation proves to be true then it proves existence of God beyond any reasonable doubt and if it does not then it also proves nonexistence of God for us for all our practical purposes. In other words the idea of revelation of God helps us decide this issue for ourselves for good. This is why a proper study of the quran by each and every sensible person of this age is absolutely necessary unless we humans wish to remain confused till our dying day regarding what this world is all about. After this explanation the main questions that arises is, how does the alleged God sent revelation prove that it is truly revealed by God and not made up by human beings themselves for their own reasons? The answer to this question is, the alleged God sent revelation must contain such information that is purpose based as well as beyond production of human capability. As I see things, it does meet these requirements but as you see things, it does not. Why I say, it does and why you say, it does not remains open to discussion.

After the above explanation the questions that need answers from the alleged God sent revelation are, what is the purpose of creation or why God created what he has created? What is the purpose of sending revelation or why God sent us human beings his revelations?

The quranic answers to these like questions are found in the quran and they cannot be known by mankind unless they make themselves capable of understanding the quran properly. Those who will not study the quran properly will never get the answers to these like questions.

Does my reasoning method show that I accept things on face value or take them for granted? I don't think so. May be you should read some of my post at least to get hang of where I am coming from.

Also I am not a muslim just because I am born in a muslim family and not all people who claim to be muslim are born in muslim families around the world. Could there be any people who were muslims before they came to deen of islam? How did they come to deen of islam to begin with? Any answers? You yourself were born in a muslim family and left islam but a lot more people who were born in muslim families still remain muslims, why? Any answers? People as they grow after birth depending on what stage they have reached in their reasoning ability keep changing their views with time. It is a natural process. A human being is a very complex and sophisticated machine.

I mean there are thousands of creation stories out there from Africans to Native Americans to Chinese, Greek and Ancient Egyptian, you didnt assume them to be true but you picked the Islamic one, my question is why? Why even go to the Quran?

As I explained already, people have been making up stories for a very long time now. We can read those stories as well and we have been doing that also. Problem is not with made up stories or reading them so long as we learn them to help us find or reach the truth about our existence. Problems only arise when made up stories are misused as I have explained already. For example, people claim some books are revealed by God when the very books themselves clearly show that they were not. Not only that they also tell us who wrote them. Therefore putting such books forward and comparing them to the quran is not right or wise at all. This is what you are doing eg in a way you are taking a hindu book the ramaina and making it same as the quran. You are taking a christian book the bible and doing the very same and so you keep doing. Where is sense in doing that?

The quran is word of God where as other books are words about God by their authors. This is why it is wrong to think like that. Since books written by people cannot tell us with reasonable certainty why, when and how things were created there is no point in taking them that way. Of course, some human works are highly useful and helpful therefore they should be taken seriously because they can help us decode message of God as we do help each other learn things from each other generation after generation for own very reasons and not necessarily for sake of God. I do not discredit human endeavour but the result of that endeavour must be attributed to humans not God because human works can and do contain mistakes because humans are not free of making mistakes or from learning from their mistakes. God makes no mistakes.

Sure its making a claim but all the other stories are also making their own claims. Why are you so biased towards this specific claim over the others? Why dont you believe that the Earth was created by a giant ape on top of a mountain in Africa? Its also a claim so if you automatically believed Quran's claim, why not that one?

I think I have already explained things, so no point in repeating the same all over again. However, it seems a good idea to draw your attention to a couple of points.

Why we find only and only the quran like the quran and no other book like the quran on the face of the earth when our human population is nearly 8 billion and since the quraan was allegedly revealed nearly 1500 years ago? Why no human being thought so far to write a book like the quran to make fool of the people to discredit the quran by producing a similar or even a better book than the quran with similar information?

Since you are a very sensible and wise person and you have read the quran and you claim that you understand it well, can you explain why the quran starts with taooz and tasmiya verses? Is it a coincidence or is there any purpose to it? Humanity is divided between rich and poor or powerful or weak or clever and foolish or more advantaged and less advantaged or knowledgeable and ignorant etc etc, could such people produce a book like the quran because the quran is a purpose based book and it is not biased against anyone in particular or in favour of any particular section of human population?

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Since you are a very sensible and wise person and you have read the quran and you claim that you understand it well, can you explain why the quran starts with taooz and tasmiya verses?

Quran doesn't start with anything because Quran is not compiled in chronological order. What it starts with and what it ends with, this order was given by people later on arbitrarily.

 

[Mughal1]

Quran doesn't start with anything because Quran is not compiled in chronological order. What it starts with and what it ends with, this order was given by people later on arbitrarily.

Dear vitamin c, I already gave you link where I discuss your allegations against the quran. Do take the trouble to check it out. There is nothing wrong with the quran as we have it. My study of things about the quran is very wide and very deep. I raised more serious questions against the quran than any nonmuslim will ever raise. I found answers to those questions by studying the quran in light of real world realities.

You have not done that yet but may be one day you will. I have raised some questions for such nonmuslims to answer who claim the quran is not original. See if you can answer those questions otherwise you have no right to claim the quran is not original.

So kindly answer the question regarding taooz and tasmiha if you have read the quran and understood it.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I have raised some questions for such nonmuslims to answer who claim the quran is not original.

What do you mean by original? Even top Quranic scholars such as Yasir Qadhi do not believe in preservation of Quran anymore.

The Quran was compiled many different times until Abbasid Caliphate including Hajjaj Bin Yousaf.

The zair zabar in Arabic language did not exist until 100 years after Muhammad's death. There can be upto 30 different meanings of a word in Arabic just by applying different Zair Zabar to it.

There are verses on walls of Dome of Rock that cannot be found in modern Quran anymore.

I think you have studied nothing, your approach to Quran is very irrational. You have a bias towards the Quran because of your Muslim upbringing and you are not studying it to scrutinize it but you are studying it to find arguments however rational or irrational just to justify your irrational beliefs in Quran.

I have been studying Quran for over 20 years now, I never found anything in it that shows me the writer was anymore intelligent thant a 15 year old school going child in 21st century.

Its a plagiarism of Judaisim and Christianity with profanity, hideuos torture, superstition, immoralities such us amputations, sexual slavery and other barbaric stupidity. You are wasting your time and your life on these idle tales.

 

[Mughal1]

What do you mean by original? Even top Quranic scholars such as Yasir Qadhi do not believe in preservation of Quran anymore.

The Quran was compiled many different times until Abbasid Caliphate including Hajjaj Bin Yousaf.

The zair zabar in Arabic language did not exist until 100 years after Muhammad's death. There can be upto 30 different meanings of a word in Arabic just by applying different Zair Zabar to it.

There are verses on walls of Dome of Rock that cannot be found in modern Quran anymore.

Dear vitamin c, as I said already please refer to my given link for finding out why the quran as we have it today is original and none can prove it otherwise. Without going to that thread in which I am explaining such points you are not going to have any idea about the quran as to what it is and why or how. So kindly visit the provided link otherwise your remarks regarding the quran are nothing but utterances of an ignorant human being and the world is full of them. Your arguments against the quran are just for the sake of the argument. A genuine person at least must educate oneself about the issue one is trying to learn or discuss or debate.

I think you have studied nothing, your approach to Quran is very irrational. You have a bias towards the Quran because of your Muslim upbringing and you are not studying it to scrutinize it but you are studying it to find arguments however rational or irrational just to justify your irrational beliefs in Quran.

I have been studying Quran for over 20 years now, I never found anything in it that shows me the writer was anymore intelligent thant a 15 year old school going child in 21st century.

Ok, if I have not studied anything and you have studied the quran for over 20 years, then could you please answer my simple questions I asked you just so that I could educate myself with your help? Also could you kindly explain why surah one alfaatihah is the very first one in the quran?

Its a plagiarism of Judaisim and Christianity with profanity, hideuos torture, superstition, immoralities such us amputations, sexual slavery and other barbaric stupidity. You are wasting your time and your life on these idle tales.

Well, I will wait for your perfect rational explanations in answers to my questions to see how good a rational scholar of the quran you and the people like you are. Kindly do not quote me mullaans or scientists or philosophers etc as scholars of the quran in your replies. I am not a slave of such people as you are.

There is no such scholar of the quran in the world today in my knowledge to whom I could refer you. This is why I want you to discuss the quran with me to learn to be a scholar of the quran yourself. Yasir qadhi is no scholar of the quran. No mullaan is. People either have religious education or secular education and both of them are not of much use for humanity because they isolate humanity from word of God by their tricks and mechanisms. Why you think the human world is the way it is? It is because people are either religious or secular. I never seen anyone discussing the quran as it ought to be discussed, have you who does not even know the very basic things about the quran?

Even if I accept for sake of argument that the quran as we have it is not original as you put it, still my questions to you about the quranic textual arrangement do not go away and they need answers. It is because I want to prove to you that almost all people including you are not real good thinkers and that is the kind of people the quran needs for its proper understanding to decode its message properly ie great thinkers. People who talk about the quran like yourself are not scholars of the quran at all and they prove that all by themselves due to their very limited knowledge about things. They talk against a decodable book which they cannot even understand due to their own very ignorance. I say that because I can decode it but you and people like you cannot. All because people like you have not yet reached the thinking level the quran needs for its proper interpretation.

Here is your chance to prove me wrong about yourself by answering my questions. Why the quran begins with taooz and tasmiya and why the quran begins with surah alfaatiha? By the way I have explained these points already had you read my posts. This proves that you are not a truth seeker at all as you claim to be. You are one of those who blame the quran for its wrong interpretations by foolish people like yourself who do not wish to be educated.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Also could you kindly explain why surah one alfaatihah is the very first one in the quran?

I already told you that it is not the first one. Quran wasnt revealed in chronological order, the Quran was ordered and reorded again many times after Muhammad's death.

The current version of Quran you read is the 1924 Cairo version, before that it was a different version. Also there are many different versions of Quran today, if you are in North Africa its different, if you are in Iran its different and if you are in Indonesia its different. You should study these things before debating with me.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I never seen anyone discussing the quran as it ought to be discussed, have you who does not even know the very basic things about the quran?

Who gave you the right to decide how the Quran should be discussed, are you a prophet?

 

[Vitamin_C]

So kindly visit the provided link otherwise your remarks regarding the quran are nothing but utterances of an ignorant human being and the world is full of them.

So Quran doesnt talk about sexual slavery, amputations, eternal torture? Maybe you should go read the Quran first before arguing about the Quran.

 

[Mughal1]

I already told you that it is not the first one. Quran wasnt revealed in chronological order, the Quran was ordered and reorded again many times after Muhammad's death.

The current version of Quran you read is the 1924 Cairo version, before that it was a different version. Also there are many different versions of Quran today, if you are in North Africa its different, if you are in Iran its different and if you are in Indonesia its different. You should study these things before debating with me.

Dear vitamin c, the quran has no different versions just one version. Anyone who is telling you about multiple versions of the quran is either ignorant about the quran or is deliberately lying. I have already discussed this issue as well in detail in my posts. If you will go through the link I provided for you, you will get the detail from there as to why what you call so many versions of the quran came about. Since you have decided not to go through the information which I have provided already in the given link about the quran, there is not much I can do.

As I said before, even if the quran has been changed so many times as you say yet all I am asking you is to explain a few things about the quran as we have it today. So kindly go ahead. What are you afraid of?

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

So Quran doesnt talk about sexual slavery, amputations, eternal torture? Maybe you should go read the Quran first before arguing about the Quran.

Dear vitamin c, you cannot place any blame on the quran till you are able to understand the quran in its proper context. I remember asking you to try and read the quranic text in its proper context. So far it seems you have not bothered to do that otherwise you could not be talking nonsense about the quran.

The quran is all about people bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. The quran is like the map of a building based upon which a builder builds a building. To build a proper human society is also like building a building of bricks etc. So if you want to get out of your terrible confusion then read through what I have explained about the quran and build on it. That is the way to go otherwise be ready for what is coming to you and yours because ignorance and stupidity only leads humanity to painful suffering by hands of each other.

regards and all the best.