What if China was not Pakistan ally ?

[Vitamin_C]

PMIK went out of his way to make this region peaceful & prosperous, but the Little Man in Big Office took it as his weakness and tried to up the ante. By doing so, it is further pushing Pak to the Chinese lap given the strengthening ties of India with the US.

You are right in this. India’s behaviour towards their neighbours do not match India’s size. The more powerful a country the more responsibility that country has to its neighbours but India always behaved like a small country.

Despite India’s size, Pakistan would have had a bigger economy had we stayed on track and made a secular country for Muslim just like Israel did for Jews.

This Islamic State thing is a waste of time and the sooner Pakistanis come to their senses the better. Instead of Madina we should have stayed in the tracks of South Korea and Singapore. Royasat e Madina is the same euphoria as Lenin’s perfect communist state, it doesn’t exist, we will waste 50-100 years of our time before realizing our mistake and by then it will be too late.

 

[desan]

You are right in this. India’s behaviour towards their neighbours do not match India’s size. The more powerful a country the more responsibility that country has to its neighbours but India always behaved like a small country.

Despite India’s size, Pakistan would have had a bigger economy had we stayed on track and made a secular country for Muslim just like Israel did for Jews.

This Islamic State thing is a waste of time and the sooner Pakistanis come to their senses the better. Instead of Madina we should have stayed in the tracks of South Korea and Singapore. Royasat e Madina is the same euphoria as Lenin’s perfect communist state, it doesn’t exist, we will waste 50-100 years of our time before realizing our mistake and by then it will be too late.

Don't see much contradiction between a secular state and State of Media as IK has envisaged it.

Have lived in the States for most of my life and have seen a lot of flaws in it despite it being a very successful experiment.

Biggest problem with the States is the huge disparity between haves and have nots. There is an insurmountable income gap and an army of homeless people.

Focus of PMIK is a Wholesome Social Welfare State in the line State of Medina with an emphasis on humanity, protection for minorities and those at the bottom rungs of society.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Don't see much contradiction between a secular state and State of Media as IK has envisaged it.

His state is not an Al-Qaeda State, a Taliban State or an ISIS but its still far from a secular state.

Secular state just means that your laws are not based on any religion. You can have a country for Jews or for Muslim but have laws based on reason rather than holy books. West made this transition before Muslims and thats why they are ahead, Turks made this realization long time ago after their defeats against Europeans.

Pakistan has so much tourism potential but our laws are preventing people from coming here. For anyone outside the Muslim world, our society is anything but normal. There are no bars or nightclubs, women have to adhere to dress codes. This scares people away.

Back in the 60s Pakistan was like a normal country, girls were safe even if they wear skirts, there were nightclubs, german pole dancers, bars and pubs. Karachi was the regional hub for major airlines and PIA one of the best airlines in Asia. Sh Faisal hotels used to be full of tourists and it all went to Shit when we started our Islamization. I dont see things going back to normal, even if IK wanted to he cant undo it because the Mullahs in this country are too powerful and there is no shortage of brainwashed people who will start killing Prime ministers and governors if you say anything against the current system.

I am not allowed to start threads on this forum because I made a Post against China. This is our country's mentality. It is largely dictated by our superstitions and religions rather than reason or logic. We want to kill or silence people if they say something that we dont like or hurts our feelings.

The only way the country will change is if IK can atleast give Pakistanis freedom of expression and freedom of speech. When people have that, truth will come out on top. Its the weakest people in society that need freedom of speech because, political, military and religious figures need not speak, they have the power to do things rather than speaking them.

 

[desan]

His state is not an Al-Qaeda State, a Taliban State or an ISIS but its still far from a secular state.

Secular state just means that your laws are not based on any religion. You can have a country for Jews or for Muslim but have laws based on reason rather than holy books. West made this transition before Muslims and thats why they are ahead, Turks made this realization long time ago after their defeats against Europeans.

Pakistan has so much tourism potential but our laws are preventing people from coming here. For anyone outside the Muslim world, our society is anything but normal. There are no bars or nightclubs, women have to adhere to dress codes. This scares people away.

Back in the 60s Pakistan was like a normal country, girls were safe even if they wear skirts, there were nightclubs, german pole dancers, bars and pubs. Karachi was the regional hub for major airlines and PIA one of the best airlines in Asia. Sh Faisal hotels used to be full of tourists and it all went to Shit when we started our Islamization. I dont see things going back to normal, even if IK wanted to he cant undo it because the Mullahs in this country are too powerful and there is no shortage of brainwashed people who will start killing Prime ministers and governors if you say anything against the current system.

Pakistan has so much tourism potential but our laws are preventing people from coming here. For anyone outside the Muslim world, our society is anything but normal. There are no bars or nightclubs, women have to adhere to dress codes. This scares people away.

Thanks for properly defining a "Secular Western State", where covering oneself is considered a crime and baring it all is celebrated!!!

A state where divorce rate is more than 50% and most young girls are molested by their step parents.

Most religions emphasize keeping a nuclear family intact for that exact reason.

We will be happier with a bit less money but more intact nuclear family.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Thanks for properly defining a "Secular Western State", where covering oneself is considered a crime and baring it all is celebrated!!!

A state where divorce rate is more than 50% and most young girls are molested by their step parents.

Most religions emphasize keeping a nuclear family intact for that exact reason.

We will be happier with a bit less money but more intact nuclear family.

Its not a crime to cover yourself in the West.

Problem is that majority of Pakistanis have watched more western porn than they have read western books or watched western movies. That is why I had a concern mentioning mini skirts to you or your mind would automatically divert to sexuality.

Also the problem of molestation doesnt happen as much in sexually liberal societies, it happens more in sexually frustrated societies where women and men are segregated and the only women in sight is the daughter, niece, grand-daughter, sister etc. Thats every month you have so many cases of fathers raping their daughters in Pakistan etc.

You are looking at West from a wrong lense.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Thanks for properly defining a "Secular Western State"

A Secular state is a state where laws are made by reason not by religious books. Thats definition of Secular State.

 

[Vitamin_C]

We will be happier with a bit less money but more intact nuclear family.

Everyone has different wants. I do not want a family so I couldnt care less and there are many people that think like me.

And even if I wanted a family, id rather have it in a country with a $50,000 GDP rather than $2000 where my children will live in misery. Do you have any idea how is the life of an average Pakistani or are you thinking everyone lives in middle class like you?

My own Parents in Pakistan were seperated and I never saw them sleep in the same bed, I saw them live miserably together because divoerce in our society is taboo. I am still struggling in my own relationships because I do not know what it means for a couple to love each other because all I saw was emotional distance. I think its better to give people the freedom to get divorced rather than to force them to live together due to religion or culture, even if it means a 50% divorce rate.

 

[desan]

A Secular state is a state where laws are made by reason not by religious books. Thats definition of Secular State.

Even in secular countries, inspiration for the laws were taken from religious texts.

US constitution relied heavily upon various religious texts, from Bible to Quran.

Not a religious scholar, but to my understanding; Except for fundamental laws, other rulings can be adapted to the changing landscape which even happened soon after the death of the prophet.

 

[desan]

Everyone has different wants. I do not want a family so I couldnt care less and there are many people that think like me.

And even if I wanted a family, id rather have it in a country with a $50,000 GDP rather than $2000 where my children will live in misery. Do you have any idea how is the life of an average Pakistani or are you thinking everyone lives in middle class like you?

My own Parents in Pakistan were seperated and I never saw them sleep in the same bed, I saw them live miserably together because divoerce in our society is taboo. I am still struggling in my own relationships because I do not know what it means for a couple to love each other because all I saw was emotional distance. I think its better to give people the freedom to get divorced rather than to force them to live together due to religion or culture, even if it means a 50% divorce rate.

So, having nightclubs, free flow of heavenly wines and bodies will improve the GDP from $2000 to $50,000!!!

Appears to be a bit too impressed with the Western way of life!!!

My own Parents in Pakistan were seperated and I never saw them sleep in the same bed, I saw them live miserably together because divoerce in our society is taboo.

These anecdotes do not amount to much.

One has to look at collective consequences and overall probabilities and actuarials to come to a conclusion about shaping a society.

 

[Vitamin_C]

So, having nightclubs, free flow of heavenly wines and bodies will improve the GDP from $2000 to $50,000!!!

Appears to be a bit too impressed with the Western way of life!!!

Thats not what I said, I was talking about tourism.

The main point that puts West ahead of Pakistan and which explains the difference in GDP is that when you have laws based on logic and reason you will implement better economic systems and have a culture that values science and knowledge.

But if you have a society that has laws based on religions and superstitions and no one is allowed to think or speak than the result is countries like North Korea and Pakistan.

Once you have a society where laws are based on reasoning it sets off a chain of events some of which may also lead to sexual liberation of women but that’s a by product and not a reason for their success.

 

[Vitamin_C]

One has to look at collective consequences and overall probabilities and actuarials to come to a conclusion about shaping a society.

If you force two people who are miserable together to live together by cultural and religious pressure then you can make divorce rates look better on paper but you would be doing more harm to society than good. I have lived in both societies and I say that family life in the West and family bonds are significantly stronger than in Pakistan.

 

[desan]

Thats not what I said, I was talking about tourism.

The main point that puts West ahead of Pakistan and which explains the difference in GDP is that when you have laws based on logic and reason you will implement better economic systems and have a culture that values science and knowledge.

But if you have a society that has laws based on religions and superstitions and no one is allowed to think or speak than the result is countries like North Korea and Pakistan.

Once you have a society where laws are based on reasoning it sets off a chain of events some of which may also lead to sexual liberation of women but that’s a by product and not a reason for their success.

Any specific law in mind that is becoming a hurdle in the progress of this country and creating a disparity of $48000 in GDP???

 

[desan]

If you force two people who are miserable together to live together by cultural and religious pressure then you can make divorce rates look better on paper but you would be doing more harm to society than good. I have lived in both societies and I say that family life in the West and family bonds are significantly stronger than in Pakistan.

Again, talking about anecdotes.
As a learned person, look at the statistics and probabilities.

Divorce is permitted in our society as well but is frowned upon, albeit less and less so.

It's not a matter of forcing 2 people together, but to create an atmosphere that will not let them split apart.

Western culture promotes this fission of a nuclear family, while it's the opposite in this country but unfortunately due encroaching of the Western culture we are heading in the same direction.

 

[Vitamin_C]

It's not a matter of forcing 2 people together, but to create an atmosphere that will not let them split apart.

Its mostly forcing the woman to live with her husband against their will. In Islam a man may just say Talaq thrice and get a diveroce. But when you give freedom to women like in West then majority of diverces are initiated by women and Islam migitates this by taking away the rights of women. Its harder for women to get a diveroce from a man they do not wish to live with anymore and maritial rape isnt recognized in Islamic societies.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Any specific law in mind that is becoming a hurdle in the progress of this country and creating a disparity of $48000 in GDP???

Emancipation of women for one. You will double your workforce by not making women the property of their fathers and brothers and giving them the freedom to do what they want to do in life. This will bring you atleast equal to some African and South American countries without doing anything else.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Any specific law in mind that is becoming a hurdle in the progress of this country and creating a disparity of $48000 in GDP???

Another one that I hope IK would do is make critical thinking and philosophy compulsory in Secondary school.

We are not taught how to think but Islamic education is forced down our throat since the moment we open our eyes before our brains are fully formed. It completely turns off a persons brain and they are condemned for life to defend all the stupidity that they never consented to.

I was lucky that I was applying to Oxford and A levels Critical thinking was a requirement, most of my fellow Pakistanis were not that fortunate. One of the reasons why I think so differently but hopefully as people get more educated and intelligent they will be able to sift through the BS we are fed in our society and I am not just talking about religion.

I was in the same thought process as you so I know exactly where you are coming from, I still have my insaf card and I remember my self 10 years ago sitting at the dhabas in Defense smoking and loathing at Mullahs and why they cant follow the right Islam. But it wasnt my fault and its not yours, we are products of the society we live in and we over-estimate our freedom/ability to think freely. Anyone born in Hindu family in India is mostly likely going to defend his religion/hindutva as he grows older likewise most of us are also in the same trap but with a different political/religious ideology. It takes a very intelligent person to break out of it.

 

[desan]

Its mostly forcing the woman to live with her husband against their will. In Islam a man may just say Talaq thrice and get a diveroce. But when you give freedom to women like in West then majority of diverces are initiated by women and Islam migitates this by taking away the rights of women. Its harder for women to get a diveroce from a man they do not wish to live with anymore and maritial rape isnt recognized in Islamic societies.

Not sure about the veracity of this assertion...

One can argue about various laws, but the problem lies with the culture that leads to increase in ripping apart of a nuclear family.

Even US was quite conservative at one time with very low divorce rate, despite the ease of getting one.

It is the recent change in their culture that has created an epidemic of single family households.

 

[desan]

Emancipation of women for one. You will double your workforce by not making women the property of their fathers and brothers and giving them the freedom to do what they want to do in life. This will bring you atleast equal to some African and South American countries without doing anything else.

That is one of the biggest reasons for an increase in divorce rate, but West promotes this as a panacea of the ills of 3rd world countries and we buy this argument with hook line and sinker!!!

It is the 2 working family household that is creating a havoc in the West for numerous reasons.

In order to keep up with the Joneses, an average US family cannot afford to live on a single parent income.

Similar thing is happening in our metropolitan cities with similar results in breaking up of families!!!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Western culture promotes this fission of a nuclear family, while it's the opposite in this country but unfortunately due encroaching of the Western culture we are heading in the same direction.

You are right, there is a certain aspect of control and brainwashing in every society and I rebel against the western society too. Everything you see on Hollywood has societal programing behind it. I do not believe in the family values most civilizations have created.

Agriculture and family has been around for less than 15,000 years. Humans have been huntergetherers for mover 200,000 years. Sleeping 8 hours straight in a day, having 3 meals in a day, having a wife, consuming a diet dominated by grain. All these things are not natural to humans, they are artificial constructs since the agricultural revolution in last 15,000 years.

Yes we can force ourselves to stay humble and monogomous against our nature due to brainwashing or pressure from Western or Eastern societies, as women get more and more freedom, these values are also going to diminish even more. People may not like what I say but I am just calling a spade a spade.

When I was growing up in Pakistan, we were told to get an education, get a job, get married to a good girl, have kids, retire and die. But instead I got a degree, wiped my butt with it, started a business made not much, but made more money than a job and with extra freedom, dated many different women that I was attracted to at the same time and have no kids to worry about. This world can be your heaven or your hell depending on how you want it to be.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Not sure about the veracity of this assertion...

You can google the studies on this. Atleast 69% of all divorces in West are initiated by women.