What if China was not Pakistan ally ?

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Then we would be like India, who has an issue with everyone of it's neighbouring countries
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Then we would be like India, who has an issue with everyone of it's neighbouring countries

India's foreign policy towards its neighbours have been childish but I support them on China issue.

But Id say this is also their mistake. Pakistani leadership warned India in 1950s of the Chinese threat and said they should resolve Kashmir and have a unified defense against China. Pakistan is like a shield for India. But Indians declined and now they are seeing what Pakistan was warning them against.

Pakistan's loss is that its basically become a vassal state of China, we are at the mercy of their dams. So far we are safe but same cannot be said about India, Bangladesh and south east Asia whose 95% water comes from rivers originating in Tibet under Chinese control.

China is Pakistan ally but do not take them lightly, they are not civilized people and do not listen to reason but rather intimidation threats and will only be good to countries like North Korea and Pakistan who yield to their regional hegemony.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
India is on suicide mission. Pakistan however needs another back up country in huge way for its issues.

Pakistan has 6th largest population in the world, if a country like Pakistan needs a back up then who is going to back up the other 194 countries?

Pakistan should through out religion, become a modern secular state, invest in education and science and become self suficient like Russia, Japan or South Korea.
 

Respect

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What happened to India in ladakh, could happen too Pakistan. PK would get slapped around. You would have US, Israel, India and then China. As for the kings of Arabia they don't give much importance too Pakistan.

If India relationship got better with China u could kiss goodbye too whatever PK has off Kashmir and Baluchistan could be taken away as well.
 

asifA1

Minister (2k+ posts)
Attention : Citizen X Vitamin_C
Why are some idiots discussing about India when clearly the topic is about China & Pakistan ?
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
India's foreign policy towards its neighbours have been childish but I support them on China issue.

But Id say this is also their mistake. Pakistani leadership warned India in 1950s of the Chinese threat and said they should resolve Kashmir and have a unified defense against China. Pakistan is like a shield for India. But Indians declined and now they are seeing what Pakistan was warning them against.

Pakistan's loss is that its basically become a vassal state of China, we are at the mercy of their dams. So far we are safe but same cannot be said about India, Bangladesh and south east Asia whose 95% water comes from rivers originating in Tibet under Chinese control.

China is Pakistan ally but do not take them lightly, they are not civilized people and do not listen to reason but rather intimidation threats and will only be good to countries like North Korea and Pakistan who yield to their regional hegemony.
Thats easier said than done and not that we really have a choice at the moment.

As for dams also easier said than done. China would have to pump billions into building dams and there is no where to store so much water in natural reservoir that rocky jagged high altitude terrain. The entire Tibetan plateau would be flooded.

And all for nothing but being petty. If it was so easy India would have stopped our water long back, instead of just hollow threats for the past 70 years.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
jo log khud ko kehlwaate musalmaan hen aur apni shiddate jahaalat ki wajah se din raat khudaa rasool per jhoot baandate hen un ka koi madadgaar ho hi nahin sakta. aise log hamesha daanwaan dol rehte hen jab tak khudaa ke baare main apne tasawwuraat ya afkaaro nazriyaat drust na karen. kerte hen khudaa ki kitaab ke saath haraami pan aur chahte hen khudaa in ko is ka nateeja achha ataa kare. agar kitaab ghor se padhi hoti to maloom ho jaata keh khudaa ki kitaab ke saath haraami pan ka nateeja khud insaanu hi ki apni zillato ruswayee ya tabahi aur barbaadi hai aik doosre ke haathun.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Pakistan has 6th largest population in the world, if a country like Pakistan needs a back up then who is going to back up the other 194 countries?

Pakistan should through out religion, become a modern secular state, invest in education and science and become self suficient like Russia, Japan or South Korea.

Dear vitamin c, I agree with you that pakistan should get its people out of their religious mindset, attitude and behaviour. But It should not go for secularism but way of life called deen of islam. Secularism is no match for deen of islam.

Why secularism cannot match deen of islam? It is because secularism has no solid base to stand upon. Why will you do as hard work as you can according to the best you your God given abilities and give away your hard earned fruit of your labour to others instead of enjoying it yourself? Even if you do this what is the guaranty that others will do the same? There is no motive or incentive there for anyone to do so. Living for others cannot become true till someone has solid reasons for doing so. A reason that is capable of rationally forcing anyone and everyone to live by a particular way of life voluntarily.

Humans as they are do all they can to try to dispossess each other. Who can help them change their this mindset, attitude and behaviour and for what? There is no proof anyone has ever lived for others save those who understood message of God properly and helped others do the same for bringing about proper human societies in the kingdom of God.

This is why it is consistency in rationality that will set humans free from their stupidities when they become capable of adding 2 and 2 together to make 4. This is why you will have to start studying the quran like me to see what its real message for mankind is. The God revealed real truth will become obvious in time when people will do a proper study of real world realities and the quran. Till then people can try all they can but they will keep on failing not only themselves but each other as well.

regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)

azeezam rana sb, mera khayaal hai ye ghaalib marhoom ke share hen in main aakhiri share main mujhe ghalati maloom hoti hai. yani aakhari share mera khayal hai kuchh yun hai. na hota main to kia hota.

is ko log 2 tarah se interpret kerte hen. aik ye keh agar main na bhi hota to khudaa ki khudayee main kia farq padna tha. aur doosra ye keh zara socho agar main na hota to kia hota. yani main bhi khudaa hota. jaisa keh wehdatul wajood ka aqeeda hai keh her shai khudaa hi hai. mere khayaal main dono baaten hi ghalat hen. aik to is liye keh khudaa ne jo kuchh bhi peda kiya hai us ka khudaa ke haan koi na koi maqsad hai agar ham us maqsad tak no bhi pohnch saken apni jahaalat ki wajah se to woh maqsad khatam nahin ho jaata. lihaaza agar khudaa kisi bhi aik shai ko peda na kerta to us ka plan mukammal na ho sakta tha.

doosra khudaa ne her shai ko apni qudrat se adam se wajood bakhsha hai. cheezen khudaa ke wajood ka hissa nahin hen. matlab pantheism ka soofia ka aqeeda ghalat hai. ye to isaaiyun ke aqeede se bhi gayaa guzra tasawwur lagta hai khudaa ke baare main.

regards and all the best.

 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Living for others cannot become true till someone has solid reasons for doing so.

Evolutionary biology provides a solid reason to live for others specially in social species which rely on each other for survival and whose genetics are so similar that survival your neighbour's offspring have virtually the same genetics as if it was your own.

Human beings have an innate nature to strive for their personal happiness and the nature of society is such that our happiness can not come if the society we live in is humane and positive. This is why countries with higher secularism and higher atheism have better societies than religious ones.

It is in our nature to do good things and take care of each other, you do not need barbaric threats of eternal torment and burning in hell nor the bribe of round breasted houris to do good things. Societies that need those things to do good are morally bankrupt alreay from their roots. Since I stopped caring about religion, I became more moral than before and started to care about things that religions do not even mention, like the future of our planet, our environment, global warming, animal welfare etc etc.

If you dont care about this world but want to sacrfice everything for another world which most probably does not exist, then you will have miserable societies like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

Ignorance of natural sciences after the Mongol invasions is one of the reasons for downfall of Muslims.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Evolutionary biology provides a solid reason to live for others specially in social species which rely on each other for survival and whose genetics are so similar that survival your neighbour's offspring have virtually the same genetics as if it was your own.

Human beings have an innate nature to strive for their personal happiness and the nature of society is such that our happiness can not come if the society we live in is humane and positive. This is why countries with higher secularism and higher atheism have better societies than religious ones.

It is in our nature to do good things and take care of each other, you do not need barbaric threats of eternal torment and burning in hell nor the bribe of round breasted houris to do good things. Societies that need those things to do good are morally bankrupt alreay from their roots. Since I stopped caring about religion, I became more moral than before and started to care about things that religions do not even mention, like the future of our planet, our environment, global warming, animal welfare etc etc.

If you dont care about this world but want to sacrfice everything for another world which most probably does not exist, then you will have miserable societies like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

Ignorance of natural sciences after the Mongol invasions is one of the reasons for downfall of Muslims.

Dear vitamin c, it seems to me you have not bothered to read my post before replying.

regards and all the best.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear vitamin c, it seems to me you have not bothered to read my post before replying.

regards and all the best.

I have and I have read the same argument many times before. But you fail to understand that morality and good deeds have nothing to do with religion.

The Piraha tribe of Brazil is the only Godless tribe on the planet and many missionaries went there to convert them to Christianity. Until they realized there is no need because they are the happiest people on the planet.

One missionay saw a strong young man feeding an older disabled man with his hands. (Piraha do not even know who their father is because they have open sex freedom)

So the missionary asked him why he is taking the trouble to care of this man when there is no bible or God to tell him to do so?

The young man replied: When old man was young he took care of me, and now old man is old so I take care of him.

That one sentence sums it up. Human beings have in innate nature to do good and keep others around them happy because they want to be happy. Religion only makes things worse and brings misery.

There is a beautiful quote from a blind Arab Poet during Abbasid period which goes like this:
657e66c5c2cc559f51fe93b5b52d30f2.jpg
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I have and I have read the same argument many times before. But you fail to understand that morality and good deeds have nothing to do with religion.

The Piraha tribe of Brazil is the only Godless tribe on the planet and many missionaries went there to convert them to Christianity. Until they realized there is no need because they are the happiest people on the planet.

One missionay saw a strong young man feeding an older disabled man with his hands. (Piraha do not even know who their father is because they have open sex freedom)

So the missionary asked him why he is taking the trouble to care of this man when there is no bible or God to tell him to do so?

The young man replied: When old man was young he took care of me, and now old man is old so I take care of him.

That one sentence sums it up. Human beings have in innate nature to do good and keep others around them happy because they want to be happy. Religion only makes things worse and brings misery.

There is a beautiful quote from a blind Arab Poet during Abbasid period which goes like this:
657e66c5c2cc559f51fe93b5b52d30f2.jpg

Dear vitamin c, you have not bothered to read my this post or for that matter any other posts for your understanding of things from my point of view. I am not arguing with you over religion. I am arguing with you over way of life and my claim is way of life explained in the quran is better than all other ways of life people will ever come across or bring about all by themselves.

You need to read my explanations about things before you could respond to my point of view. Had you read even my this post, you could not have responded the way you have. In your post you are arguing with me over religion and secularism and that is after my saying that I agree with you over your remarks about religion. Had you bothered to read my other posts you will have come across my anti religion and anti secularism stance and the reasons I pointed out for that.

Genes don't do anything the information they contain matters and the question is, where did that info come from. You are explaining the info genes contain but gene themselves do not talk. It is the interpretation of the facts that you are relying upon yet you are ignoring my interpretation of things. We already had an exchange over nature of proof and proving. I explained for you the fact that it is an explanation of any set of facts that cannot be refuted is in fact the proof. Not the facts themselves. Just like objects are only objects they themselves are not explanations. For explanations and their understandings there has to be an intelligent being to make sense of them.

I also explained for you in detail, why scientists and philosophers are anti quraan ie because they themselves have never bothered to study the quran as it aught to be studied just like yourself. You also use mullaan interpretation of the quran to justify your nonsense. You do not try to understand that mullaan themselves may be enemies of deen of islam for their own reasons just like you.

I stand with the quran not mullaans and their mental slaves. I stand against all those who accept or reject the quran for their own willy nilly or baseless reasons due to their own ignorance. This includes you as well, as you already know full well. Not because I am against your person but against your mindset, attitude and behaviour. It is because you are anti God and anti humanity without any good reason that you could defend.

So I suggest that you go back to threads and posts in which we already has some exchanges and see why you are wrong and I am right about the quran and deen of islam. To prove me wrong you will have to know the quran much better than me as well as real world realities. But I am very sure the day you come to know the quran and real world realities you will also come and join me. I wish you do that before it is too late for you.

Remember, the real world is the bundle of facts and the quraan is its best possible explanation. This is how people need to look at the quran and the creation. This is how the quran proves itself as the word of the creator.

Mean while regards and all the best.
 
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desan

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
India's foreign policy towards its neighbours have been childish but I support them on China issue.

But Id say this is also their mistake. Pakistani leadership warned India in 1950s of the Chinese threat and said they should resolve Kashmir and have a unified defense against China. Pakistan is like a shield for India. But Indians declined and now they are seeing what Pakistan was warning them against.

Pakistan's loss is that its basically become a vassal state of China, we are at the mercy of their dams. So far we are safe but same cannot be said about India, Bangladesh and south east Asia whose 95% water comes from rivers originating in Tibet under Chinese control.

China is Pakistan ally but do not take them lightly, they are not civilized people and do not listen to reason but rather intimidation threats and will only be good to countries like North Korea and Pakistan who yield to their regional hegemony.

India had the inferiority complex against Pak until recently when their diaspora became extremely powerful, especially in the US due to the JumboJets full of IIT graduates landing in Silicon Valley in the 90s.

They have no idea how to flex their muscles now except to bash and bully it's neighbors.
They feel more joy in spending their energies in bashing and belittling Pak on international forums, as revealed in Euro Disinfo Lab and through pursuing policies of hyphenating Pak with Afghanistan by coining the term of Af-Pak.

PMIK went out of his way to make this region peaceful & prosperous, but the Little Man in Big Office took it as his weakness and tried to up the ante. By doing so, it is further pushing Pak to the Chinese lap given the strengthening ties of India with the US.

In the prisoner's dilemma, India has chosen the option of snitching on it's neighbor for a lesser reward than getting the maximum benefit by supporting it and finding an amicable solution to a long standing irritiant!!!
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I also explained for you in detail, why scientists and philosophers are anti quraan ie because they themselves have never bothered to study the quran as it aught to be studied just like yourself. You also use mullaan interpretation of the quran to justify your nonsense. You do not try to understand that mullaan themselves may be enemies of deen of islam for their own reasons just like you.

I don’t see a reason for them to bother with this badly written book full of violence by desert dwellers 1400 years ago. 20% of which we cannot decide even on which language it is written in let alone understand it.

Western societies are content enough with their society which also gives them less reason to bother. Problem only exists in countries that use Quran as their constitution and I wonder why.
 
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