The stupidity that is atheism

[lurker]

Oh wow, you're comparing the predictions of Nostradamus with the clear Quranic verse about sea waves. This is hilarious hahaha.

Nostradamus plagiarised the Bible and was inspired from the ancient texts and history. You make like 900+ vague predictions, don't you think you can consider few to be true based on their vagueness lol.

Here's my prediction completely based on bullshit - humans will cure most causes of death. They will conquer the skies. There will be a major disaster that will change the face of humanity. Bla bla. This is the same tactic psychics use, throw a million misses and one hit and people will remember the hit only. You're giving too much credit to Nostradamus, he's not credited with those and even his supporters argue with each other on his the same prediction

I see you've been watching Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, that's his argument. Why look at Quran scientifically, just do blind belief

The christians say the Quran plagiarized the bible too. And the Jews say both plagiarized the Torah. While scholars say, there has been heavy plagiarism from Greeks and the babylonians. Khair. To me its not a big deal if there was plagiarism or not. To me when you are already believing in a God then you can pretty much believe anything after that. You are easy, most of the time. It's only guys like me who are detail oriented and have read far too much literature on Human nature, history and societal controls who scrutinize such things and can still walk the thin line. Even Atheists can't do that.

There are other ways of looking at the Quran, rather than just scientifically. Let me be frank with you, *you* can't look at the Quran scientifically even if you wanted to. You are following a Belief system. Science doesn't work with beliefs. I read the same Ayah you did. I never found any such specific layer upon layer of water reference. I just saw Wave upon Wave. If you read ancient poetry, you'll know this is a common reference by sailors from Greece and the Norse mythologies also feature tales which speak of depths of the ocean and waves upon which are more waves. Wave does not equate Layers of ocean. Or even Currents if you want to take a leap of faith. But the most important question of all is what you are not asking yourself; What is the Ayah talking about? ;)

 

[lurker]

There is yet another problem my friend. Previuosly you mixed up book of guidance & signs and now you are mixing up prophecies and scientific facts. How can i address all this every time. Plz don't do that.

Cut the story short. ALLAH compares non believer who is in darkness of ignorance to deep see darkness. Why is it so difficult for you to realize that this could have compared with darkness at night ? Why can't you see there is a specific comparison to deep sea ? Its deep darkness is a fact and then it has wave upon waves which is another proven fact. Problem is with your way of thinking. You just fail to appreciate a clear sign. A clear statement which no one would make 1400 tears back. You think Nabi SAW would compare a non believer living in darkness to the darkness of deep sea, which he never traveled upon nor he dived in that deep sea and come back. Or when he compares with deep sea darkness he would also had to mention waves upon waves ? Come on man. Whats wrong with you. This is not prophecy. This is not prediction. This was a fact stated in Quran and even Prophets SAW n his companions would'nt have known this.

He could say Darkness = Night; But Allah specifically said Deep Sea, not so you can come out here on this forum in 2018 and tell us all Allah is actually talking about Underwater Currents or the different layers of water. But I suspect it has to do with a Man who is an unbeliever, drowning in a vast sea. With wave upon wave beating down on him. And if he reached his hand out, he still cannot see. You see, A man cannot drown in the night. And neither does the night have waves upon waves of water that can overwhelm a man and possibly drown him.

The Sea is an added effect to bring home the point in a more stronger manner than just a simple night. Come on man, You are a better muslim than I am and here i am with the more simpler and highly plausible explanation of an Ayah that speaks about the state of an unbeliever. I fail to see where wave upon wave becomes underwater Layers or Currents. Out of curiosity, Have you ever swam in the deep open sea? I only ask, because I have. I work there. :)

I will repeat it once more. Quran specifically mentions about few characteristics of Bani Adam (You may call them modern humans or Homosapiens).
1) Intellect
2) Language
3) Clothing
4) Burial

I have mentioned earlier that ALLAH has used words Anzalna Libasa .... Word Anzalna suggests its divine nature. Humans have been divinely inspired to put on cloths n cover up their private parts. Quran mentions 2 uses of clothing, covering private parts and tazeen o araish (urdu has better phrase). All the evidence so far proves it to be true. Clothing was exclusive to Bani Adam or homo sapiens, it started well before migration to cold areas. It was never a feature of any other species. Your argument about Neanderthals holds no ground and there is no evidence to support that either. Neanderthals were in cold areas 100s of centuries before with out cloths. There are many flaws in your argument which i already mention n you never responded. I wont insist either.
My humble request is listen to what i said, do some more research and study it in an academic way with open heart n mind. Na Qila men ne fatah kerna hay na aap ne.
There is more to say on language n burial but i have given you a food for thought already. We are not yet done with clothing i guess. By the way i am a doctor by profession and have developed some sense of science after studying for so many years my friend. Cheers

My research suggests humans were nude UNTIL they moved to cooler climates. And the evidence of this is the evolution of body lice. Scientists observed that clothing lice are extremely well-adapted to clothing. They hypothesized that body lice must have evolved to live in clothing, which meant that they weren’t around before humans started wearing clothes. The study used DNA sequencing of lice to calculate when clothing lice started to genetically split from head lice. The answer was 200,000 years to 170,000 years ago. This was just after the end of the second to last Ice age. Clothing is what made it possible for migration to cooler climates. This is a scientific fact that Outside of Africa You would DEFINITELY need clothing to survive. Neanderthals were a remarkable species, they had culture, religion, funeral, language AND lo and behold some form of clothing. Infact, neanderthals are actually allowed into the circle of Homo species that did practice burial. There was another species which has strong evidence to suggest burial. And this one had an even smaller brain.

I don't know how you can reconcile that neanderthals survive in sub freezing temperatures Without any clothes on for 100,000s of years. Show me any Living creature that can survive such temperatures WITHOUT some form of protection against the elements.

Again, might I suggest you are taking the exclusivity clause too literally for Homo Sapiens? The Quran doesn't exactly break down species by Genus and other taxonomies you know. Plus the other bits about propagation of the species from Just Adam and Eve. That is a whole other debate that I don't know how you scientifically reconcile. I will get to that later.

 

[Steyn]

The christians say the Quran plagiarized the bible too. And the Jews say both plagiarized the Torah. While scholars say, there has been heavy plagiarism from Greeks and the babylonians. Khair. To me its not a big deal if there was plagiarism or not. To me when you are already believing in a God then you can pretty much believe anything after that. You are easy, most of the time. It's only guys like me who are detail oriented and have read far too much literature on Human nature, history and societal controls who scrutinize such things and can still walk the thin line. Even Atheists can't do that.

There are other ways of looking at the Quran, rather than just scientifically. Let me be frank with you, *you* can't look at the Quran scientifically even if you wanted to. You are following a Belief system. Science doesn't work with beliefs. I read the same Ayah you did. I never found any such specific layer upon layer of water reference. I just saw Wave upon Wave. If you read ancient poetry, you'll know this is a common reference by sailors from Greece and the Norse mythologies also feature tales which speak of depths of the ocean and waves upon which are more waves. Wave does not equate Layers of ocean. Or even Currents if you want to take a leap of faith. But the most important question of all is what you are not asking yourself; What is the Ayah talking about? ;)

You're all over the place buddy. You're throwing red herrings, doing the straw figure fallacy. You can't argue rationally, i don't expect you to be sincere and rational when it comes to Holy Quran either.

So you agree now about Nostradamus and my future predictions and how that is irrelevant to Holy Quran.

I have no interest in making you believe in miracles of Holy Quran, I just had to comment on the absurdity of your comparison, which you seem to agree with me now.

 

[lurker]

You're all over the place buddy. You're throwing red herrings, doing the straw figure fallacy. You can't argue rationally, i don't expect you to be sincere and rational when it comes to Holy Quran either.

So you agree now about Nostradamus and my future predictions and how that is irrelevant to Holy Quran.

I have no interest in making you believe in miracles of Holy Quran, I just had to comment on the absurdity of your comparison, which you seem to agree with me now.

The Ayah says how a disbeliever is. You say, its talking about Scientific fact of layers in the sea. Tell me what is more likely, a Disbeliever in a deep dark sea with waves upon waves on top of him or perhaps God took a tangent and said, "hmm... I must let Steyn know that there are layers in the deep sea. This is my opportunity to do just that." Your interpretation lacks coherence.

 

[Steyn]

The Ayah says how a disbeliever is. You say, its talking about Scientific fact of layers in the sea. Tell me what is more likely, a Disbeliever in a deep dark sea with waves upon waves on top of him or perhaps God took a tangent and said, "hmm... I must let Steyn know that there are layers in the deep sea. This is my opportunity to do just that." Your interpretation lacks coherence.

I have no interest in changing your mind like i have said earlier. I believe the Holy Quran when it says no amount of proofs will change their minds until they see the torment that awaits them ie in the afterlife. I can only tell you miracles and provoke your thinking, whether you believe in them or refuse them is up to you.

Let's talk about something else

This is such a common sense to me and every Muslim that we don't even think about it. Compare that to the state of non-Muslims and you will be shocked. There have been studies (i can't find the exact study anymore) that said something like 23% of the people surveyed in Europe and America had fecal matter on their hands. (Similar study - http://healthland.time.com/2011/10/17/study-1-in-6-cell-phones-contaminated-with-fecal-matter/)

We have to wash our hands before eating and after eating, there are clear hadiths about how to clean our backsides, the wudu forces you to clean your hands three times, face, mouth, nose, arms, legs three times. And your ears. After sex or ejaculation, you have to take ghusl and wash your private parts until there is no visible particles there.

The miswak has antibacterial properties and imagine that, those ignorant arabs knew about mouth hygiene. This concept of orodental hygiene is only practiced today with such frequency.

I find it amazing that Islam teaches frequent hand washing when TODAY scientists are urging people to wash their hands to avoid the spread of disease. SubhanAllah

The cleanliness that Islam forced upon the ignorant Arabs and Muslims is the golden standard for the modern people based on scientific knowledge today and the people even today don't follow it. There are people who don't wash their hands or their genitals after using toilet because they have no knowledge, no source to tell them what they need to do.

The germ theory was only proposed in its shape closer to modern times was by Robert Koch. Antone leu vanhook studied basic microbiology hundreds of years after Islam. This concept of cleanliness is a new modern concept. It was never practiced and still isn't practiced by many non-Muslims despite the medical urging.

This without a doubt proves that Islam is from God because there is no other explanation for it. There was no knowledge of germs, cleanliness wasn't even practiced and there was no reason for it either. There are religions which prohibit cleanliness pointing to their man made nature and ignorance of the people at their time they made these religions. Islam transcends the age it was revealed at and is truly for the eternity.

Watch Embarrassing Bodies in UK. 90% of diagnosis is that people don't wash their aresholes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassing_Bodies

 

[drkhan22]

He could say Darkness = Night; But Allah specifically said Deep Sea, not so you can come out here on this forum in 2018 and tell us all Allah is actually talking about Underwater Currents or the different layers of water. But I suspect it has to do with a Man who is an unbeliever, drowning in a vast sea. With wave upon wave beating down on him. And if he reached his hand out, he still cannot see. You see, A man cannot drown in the night. And neither does the night have waves upon waves of water that can overwhelm a man and possibly drown him.

I am sorry but can just laugh my friend. ALLAH actually talks about the waves of sea ..... Have your not read the translations yet ? There is no where mentioned a disbeliever like the one who is drowning in the sea and getting waves upon waves. There is no mention of drowning at all. ALLAH only explaines the extreme of darkness where one can't even see his hand if stretches out. Another failure on your part here. When you do not read it carefully and with an interest this is what happens. I do not think any further discussion will help us here. As i said when you do not want to understand you will have always some reasons and excuses. It started with mixing up guidance n signs and prophecies and it ends with argument of drowning of a disbeliever.

The Sea is an added effect to bring home the point in a more stronger manner than just a simple night. Come on man, You are a better muslim than I am and here i am with the more simpler and highly plausible explanation of an Ayah that speaks about the state of an unbeliever. I fail to see where wave upon wave becomes underwater Layers or Currents. Out of curiosity, Have you ever swam in the deep open sea? I only ask, because I have. I work there. :)

I am not a better muslim. I am just like you. The only diference is i read Quran with an open heart and mind. I do not try to deny a clear evidence or establish facts. If you see that please identify


My research suggests humans were nude UNTIL they moved to cooler climates. And the evidence of this is the evolution of body lice. Scientists observed that clothing lice are extremely well-adapted to clothing. They hypothesized that body lice must have evolved to live in clothing, which meant that they weren’t around before humans started wearing clothes. The study used DNA sequencing of lice to calculate when clothing lice started to genetically split from head lice. The answer was 200,000 years to 170,000 years ago. This was just after the end of the second to last Ice age. Clothing is what made it possible for migration to cooler climates. This is a scientific fact that Outside of Africa You would DEFINITELY need clothing to survive. Neanderthals were a remarkable species, they had culture, religion, funeral, language AND lo and behold some form of clothing. Infact, neanderthals are actually allowed into the circle of Homo species that did practice burial. There was another species which has strong evidence to suggest burial. And this one had an even smaller brain.

Your research has many weaknesses and flaws. You have misinterpretted the research on head n clothing lice. It suggests clothing were used way before humans moved to cold areas affected badly by most recent ice age. Head lice to body lice conversion is estimated at 170000 years ago roughly. So the theory does not work when you check the details of when humans migrated to EU or to the north and when humans used clothing while in Africa which was least affected by the most recent ice age. Also , Neandrthals are not proven to use clothings and you have no evidence of that. Regarding how did they survive then the ice age in EU, i would refer you to the archeologist who are still working on many theories and one of them is their being furry and hairy. Which ever, without an undeniable evidence as per your principle, you can never claim Neanderthals used clothing. So either wait n hope for an evidence or accept the fact i have mentioned.

Regarding your claims about Neaderthals having religion, culture, language and burial, please bring in an undeniable evidence. As atheists say, enormous claims requires enormous evidence. I will wait for you to prove all these claims abot Neanderthals. When i can see your failure to prove they ever used clothing, Same will be the story with the rest of the claims i believe.


Again, might I suggest you are taking the exclusivity clause too literally for Homo Sapiens? The Quran doesn't exactly break down species by Genus and other taxonomies you know. Plus the other bits about propagation of the species from Just Adam and Eve. That is a whole other debate that I don't know how you scientifically reconcile. I will get to that later.

I am still working on this. It is an academically very interesting way of looking at how Quran address us in Quran. At occasions ALLAH calls us Bani Adam and at other occasions calls us Ya ayyo hal Insaan. Calling us Bani Adam has a meaning(Ya Bani Adam Qad Anzalna alaikum libasa) which we still have to figure out. So i will not make any claim until i have an evidence. But it certainly leaves some questions in my mind. It is like many other things which we still have to work on, like ALLAH mentioning 7 heavens (Samawaat n Samaa words) but only one earth (wal Ardh). I have not found a pleural of Ardh or earth in Quran any where. I guess we have to wait n see what it means really. One can makes guesses but better wait for more evidence. Cheers

 

[drkhan22]

I have no interest in changing your mind like i have said earlier. I believe the Holy Quran when it says no amount of proofs will change their minds until they see the torment that awaits them ie in the afterlife. I can only tell you miracles and provoke your thinking, whether you believe in them or refuse them is up to you.



Watch Embarrassing Bodies in UK. 90% of diagnosis is that people don't wash their aresholes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassing_Bodies

The UN says washing hands is the most cost-effective intervention for the worldwide control of disease. It estimates hand washing could save more than a million lives a year from diarrhoeal diseases and prevent respiratory infections, one of the biggest causes of child mortality in developing countries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19834975

 

[Steyn]

The UN says washing hands is the most cost-effective intervention for the worldwide control of disease. It estimates hand washing could save more than a million lives a year from diarrhoeal diseases and prevent respiratory infections, one of the biggest causes of child mortality in developing countries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19834975

Wow that number is even higher than i remember from the other study - "Faecal bacteria are present on 26% of hands in the UK.........Electronic recording devices revealed only 32% of men and 64% of women actually did "

And still they think Islam is backwards and barbaric lol

 

[lurker]

LoL. You are at it again. When I spoke with an imam about this, he gave me a good example. He asked me when you get a traffic ticket and you want to contest it in court, how do you present yourself infront of the judge? I told him when we go infront of a judge we wear clean clothes are at our most presentable state. He asked me why do I do that? I told him its because it bestows respect for the Judge and the court. So he said, Allah is the Ultimate Judge and when you stand before Him you need to be presentable. This is why we do Wudu.

The ancient Egyptians from the time of the Pharaohs invented Soap. Phoenicians also had a similar item in 600BC. Toothpaste 5000BC. Miswak, used by Babylonians, Romans, Greeks and Egyptians. Bathing was one of the hallmarks of Romans and resulting in the birth of plumbing. Who taught them Germ thoery? lol.

Bathing and washing is one of the pillars of Hinduism as well. It is also there in Judaism and ablution is there in the Bible as well. It certainly wasn't a new concept when Islam came around; what was new was the 5 prayer requirement and further emphasis on hygiene.

You see, cleanliness and hygiene have been part of Human culture for a LONG time. The Germ theory was just a perk that was discovered much later. No big deal in my opinion. I told you, you guys are amazed too easily. :P

This without a doubt proves that Islam is from God because there is no other explanation for it. There was no knowledge of germs, cleanliness wasn't even practiced and there was no reason for it either. There are religions which prohibit cleanliness pointing to their man made nature and ignorance of the people at their time they made these religions. Islam transcends the age it was revealed at and is truly for the eternity.

Watch Embarrassing Bodies in UK. 90% of diagnosis is that people don't wash their aresholes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassing_Bodies

 

[lurker]

The Concept of 7 Heavens has been traced back to Ancient Mesopotamia. Sumerian incantations such as an-imin-bi ki-imin-bi" (the heavens are seven, the earths are seven.) Couple that with the knowledge that these guys only observed 7 planets in their astronomy. Hinduism also has the concept of 14 worlds. 7 upper worlds and 7 lower worlds.

Infact most historians theorize that Islam and Judaism got their 7 concept from Mesopotamia. I think from a historical point of view that may be possible. I read a lot of literature on these things. Its fascinating.

To me these are not miracles or signs. What IS the real mystery is how Muhammad(saw) jotted all this down. Something is amiss here. Something that does not add up. I don't think the Prophet(saw) was illiterate. Because this idea about the Prophet(saw) was popularized from the translation of Surah 7:157. The word 'ummy' is translated in modern Arabic as unlettered. However in older arabic this was "Gentile". Infact many new translations such as Sahih International have it as Unlettered. While some others like Ahmed Ali have it as Gentile.

These are vastly different meanings. Which one is right? I bet that Gentile is right because Ummy became "unlettered" at a much later date.

All very interesting mysteries. I don't know how you guys settle on miracles when mysteries are more interesting things to explore.

I am still working on this. It is an academically very interesting way of looking at how Quran address us in Quran. At occasions ALLAH calls us Bani Adam and at other occasions calls us Ya ayyo hal Insaan. Calling us Bani Adam has a meaning(Ya Bani Adam Qad Anzalna alaikum libasa) which we still have to figure out. So i will not make any claim until i have an evidence. But it certainly leaves some questions in my mind. It is like many other things which we still have to work on, like ALLAH mentioning 7 heavens (Samawaat n Samaa words) but only one earth (wal Ardh). I have not found a pleural of Ardh or earth in Quran any where. I guess we have to wait n see what it means really. One can makes guesses but better wait for more evidence. Cheers

 

[drkhan22]

The Concept of 7 Heavens has been traced back to Ancient Mesopotamia. Sumerian incantations such as an-imin-bi ki-imin-bi" (the heavens are seven, the earths are seven.) Couple that with the knowledge that these guys only observed 7 planets in their astronomy. Hinduism also has the concept of 14 worlds. 7 upper worlds and 7 lower worlds.

Infact most historians theorize that Islam and Judaism got their 7 concept from Mesopotamia. I think from a historical point of view that may be possible. I read a lot of literature on these things. Its fascinating.

So now we are on to seven heavens though i only referred to it as an example to make a point. Anyways i assume we are done with Libas n Wave upon waves :) and you are not interested in bringing in the proves of Neaderthals being cultured, religious, having a language and doing burials. Ok leave it we move on then.

You missed my point when i mentioned about heaven and earth. In your post is your answer. You said Ancient mesopotamians had believed in 7 heaven and 7 earths.
1) I invite you to show me a verse in Quran where ALLAH says, 7 earths. Please do not show me tafseers of Ibn Kaseer or Jalalain as they would try to explain it with what ever knowledge they had. But Quran clearly speaks a word singular for earth, That is Al Ardh ( Not Al Araadh) contrary to Samawat and Samaa.

2) Also explain where did mesopotamians get the concept of seven heaven, if they could see 7 planets, how did they figured out seven heavens then. It certainly shows that they believed in 7 planets by seeing and observing them, what did they observe about seven heavens to make a belief ?

3) How will you able to deny a possibility or probability that in each nation ALLAH sent prophets, 1,24,000 in total and ALLAH revealed all such information not just in Quran but in all scriptures. most of these have been manipulated we all know as a fact. This will further give you a food for thought that where were they getting all this mixed info about heavens from ? Make sure you do not have one reason for planets and another for heavens.
4) Show me in Quran a mesopotamian era belief which is proven wrong by a undeniable scientific evidence today ? Or it is a poor excuse then by yourself. It is not possible by any means to include only the true facts and leave of the untrue from mesopotmians era
Like why do you not see the nonsense like the following in Quran ???
5) In the Epic of Creation, dated to 1200 BC, it explains that the god Marduk killed the mother goddess Tiamatand used half her body to create the earth, and the other half to create both the paradise of šamû and the netherworld of irṣitu ...... funny isn't it. Now lets ponder over this as it is even more interesting to see no nonsense from ancient civilizations but only the true facts n statements. May be Nabi SAW had some form of magic or he was having some advaced knowledge of all the sciences so he could pick up the facts and leave of the myths.
So to me it is another poor excuse and argument. By no means you can stand behind Greeks and Mesopotamians and downplay the scientific facts mentioned in Quran. Regarding Vedas, if you want me to open this up for you, i am sure you will find it even harder to show any of their nonsense in Quran.

To me these are not miracles or signs. What IS the real mystery is how Muhammad(saw) jotted all this down. Something is amiss here. Something that does not add up. I don't think the Prophet(saw) was illiterate. Because this idea about the Prophet(saw) was popularized from the translation of Surah 7:157. The word 'ummy' is translated in modern Arabic as unlettered. However in older arabic this was "Gentile". Infact many new translations such as Sahih International have it as Unlettered. While some others like Ahmed Ali have it as Gentile.
These are vastly different meanings. Which one is right? I bet that Gentile is right because Ummy became "unlettered" at a much later date.

What ever way you explain the word Ummi, Prophet SAW was neither able to read nor Write. He had dedicated people who were able to do the job for him. He has never been rerported to have written anything and presented it to the companions. He would always call them and narrate the revelation. They would write it and he would ask them to read it again and he will ask them all to memorise it and also guide them about the place of the revelation in Quran. . See all these lame excuses can only give you a little space but will never help you understand the truth. If you wish to know more about Quran, better start reading it from Aalims not through articals of atheists.

All very interesting mysteries. I don't know how you guys settle on miracles when mysteries are more interesting things to explore.

 

[lurker]

.... too long to quote. .....

I said it before, I am not here trying to change your mind or to make you agree with what I am saying. I am merely here to show you a different way of looking at the Quran. Other religion. And if things click in your head; perhaps you will take the red pill and see exactly how deep the rabbit hole is.

I have addressed the Neaderthals clothing. To me its simple logic; you need insulation to stay warm and survive. I don't know what Magic you believe Neadarthals practiced to stay warm in Sub zero temps. lol. So you denying that just because you believe Allah mandated clothes only for Homo Sapiens; what more can I say? lol. That's your belief system and you are not ready to question it. Maybe someday you will.

As for Wave upon wave; well The ayah doesn't speak in the context you are using it for. So again; I can assume its your belief so who am I to tell you what to believe in. Keep believing it. If I was going to write an Ayah about the layers of water, I would not talk about a man who lacked belief and was under water. I would say, "Did you know That under water sea currents and layers exist. The first layer is called xyz, the next one begins at 200 feet and it is called zyw." That's how I would've done. But if I was trying to give you context of how much darkness a disbeliever is in, I would've said what the Quran has said. But that's just me. Perhaps you know yourself better. :)

Sure, perhaps Allah did indeed send down 124,000 Prophets and they've been distributing information in bits and piece throughout the centuries. OR perhaps Religion is subject to evolution just like everything else is in this Universe. Again, what is more likely?

The Quran will NOT get anything wrong if it sticks to philosophical beliefs. It is ONLY when you guys who are champions of Islam; decide to drag the Quran through the lens of science where you all will start to experience the heaviest criticism from all circles. This is why I implored you, let the Quran be the word of God and not Scientific Law. I know its orgasmic to have your belief verified by Science; but trust me; you don't want to go there. :P

 

[drkhan22]

I said it before, I am not here trying to change your mind or to make you agree with what I am saying. I am merely here to show you a different way of looking at the

The Quran will NOT get anything wrong if it sticks to philosophical beliefs. It is ONLY when you guys who are champions of Islam; decide to drag the Quran through the lens of science where you all will start to experience the heaviest criticism from all circles. This is why I implored you, let the Quran be the word of God and not Scientific Law. I know its orgasmic to have your belief verified by Science; but trust me; you don't want to go there. :p

Neither m i imposing my views on you my friend.
There is no evidence of Neanderthals using clothing, being religious cultured or had a language or diong burials as you claimed. You believe in it which is blind nd not substantiated with any undeniable evidence. Regarding your logic of how could they survive without it, there are several explanations dear. But you believe it on bases on a silly logic so what if we say how could there be this universe with out a creator ? Is there a better logic ? But you have different principles in different situations i know. Cant help you here.

Quran mentioning Wave upon wave and utter darkness of deep sea is a clear sign. If you can not appreciate this fine. We do appreciate it. Your inability to see it and coming up with poor argumenst further gives us an impression that atheist have a total biased approach towards Islam n Quran. Their understading is poor and they have no set principles to verify the statements and facts.

I have asked very specific questions regarding Mesopotamians on whose shoulders you tried to fire... but looks like there isnt any strenth in mesopotanian shoulders n the firearm. Cheers

 

[lurker]

Neither m i imposing my views on you my friend.
There is no evidence of Neanderthals using clothing, being religious cultured or had a language or diong burials as you claimed. You believe in it which is blind nd not substantiated with any undeniable evidence. Regarding your logic of how could they survive without it, there are several explanations dear. But you believe it on bases on a silly logic so what if we say how could there be this universe with out a creator ? Is there a better logic ? But you have different principles in different situations i know. Cant help you here.

Quran mentioning Wave upon wave and utter darkness of deep sea is a clear sign. If you can not appreciate this fine. We do appreciate it. Your inability to see it and coming up with poor argumenst further gives us an impression that atheist have a total biased approach towards Islam n Quran. Their understading is poor and they have no set principles to verify the statements and facts.

I have asked very specific questions regarding Mesopotamians on whose shoulders you tried to fire... but looks like there isnt any strenth in mesopotanian shoulders n the firearm. Cheers

Yaar you believe in a God. A Deity. If you can believe in that then you can pretty much believe in anything. Right from this start your bias starts. You try to explain things with this assumption. But in a fair discourse you cannot even begin from this assumption. But since I am a curious guy I like to see how far this belief of yours actually goes. This is why I am working "With" you. Otherwise I could just close the ENTIRE argument before it even started by asking you proof of the claim you make of a God. And that would be the end of it. But I don't want it to end so fast. This is fun for me.

I too believe in a God, but unlike you when it comes to proper discussions I know very well I cannot bring that belief in it. Because its just a belief. All those neanderthal cave paintings? Those burial arrangement of corpses? They are... nothing? Chance? Nevermind that, what about the Genetic evidence in our DNA that we pro-created with neanderthals!? :p Nahi? Not good enough? Neanderthals were a species that could make glue. That should give you a clue as to their intelligence. Still no need for clothes? Because Quran said so? ;) You can keep on your point; I am just merely putting more weight on the scale. ;)

And Silly logic? I said the species NEED clothes to Stay alive. You said the homo sapiens were the first guys with the clothes and the FIRST reason was for modesty!? Not staying alive!? lol. I said Life and Death. You said, Parda!? LOL. I am not an expert, but on the silly scale I am pretty sure staying alive isn't even there. haha.

And the mesopotamia angle was there just to tell you that hey... 7 Heavens were talked about BEFORE the advent of Abrahamic religion. Tada! And the possibility may exist that Islam is the evolution of these other faiths. But I don't see why you all need to worry about this insinuation, given that the Quran covered you guys by saying 124,000 Prophets came on this planet. So Even if Islam is an evolution of other religion, so what? So this, that Evolution does not stop. ;) It's the greatest show on earth.

 

[drkhan22]

Yaar you believe in a God. A Deity. If you can believe in that then you can pretty much believe in anything. Right from this start your bias starts. You try to explain things with this assumption. But in a fair discourse you cannot even begin from this assumption. But since I am a curious guy I like to see how far this belief of yours actually goes. This is why I am working "With" you. Otherwise I could just close the ENTIRE argument before it even started by asking you proof of the claim you make of a God. And that would be the end of it. But I don't want it to end so fast. This is fun for me.

Same is for you my friend that your mind is also preoccupied with atheist arguments.

I too believe in a God, but unlike you when it comes to proper discussions I know very well I cannot bring that belief in it. Because its just a belief. All those neanderthal cave paintings? Those burial arrangement of corpses? They are... nothing? Chance? Nevermind that, what about the Genetic evidence in our DNA that we pro-created with neanderthals!? :p Nahi? Not good enough? Neanderthals were a species that could make glue. That should give you a clue as to their intelligence. Still no need for clothes? Because Quran said so? ;) You can keep on your point; I am just merely putting more weight on the scale. ;)

Bring in your evidence yar. So far you have only claims about Neaderthals. Bring in your evidence of clothing if used by Neaderthals. Which you do not have and you are making new claims of burials, they being religious n cultured etc etc. Give me your evidence my friend. Why would i differ if you have an un-deniable evidence. Start from clothing and bring the evidence or just say that you do not have a proof of this but you just believe in it based on a logic. I told you already the logic is poor as there may be many mechanism which could help survive in cold weathers and cloths are not necessary. They might be necessary for Humans because of they being less hairy n furry. If you do not have an evidence, then make no claims man.
Yes my friend read the head lice study in more detail and see Humans used clothing way before they migrated to areas affected by last ice age. Why do you not able to comrehend this. This is exactly what Quran explains that it was a divine attribute to Humans or Bani Adam and purpose was not primarily the weather protection but chastity and looking elegant (Modesty). It never means cloths didnt help in bad weather conditions but Humans used it with different intent to begin with, not just for cold protection. You have proof which is a scientific study. Why do you laugh at Quran when it is proven in the latest research. Humans have not been proven to use clothing only because of weather. It is only an assumption but facts prove otherwise .

And Silly logic? I said the species NEED clothes to Stay alive. You said the homo sapiens were the first guys with the clothes and the FIRST reason was for modesty!? Not staying alive!? lol. I said Life and Death. You said, Parda!? LOL. I am not an expert, but on the silly scale I am pretty sure staying alive isn't even there. haha.

Evidence my friend, bring in evidence. It does not help your argument with out an undeniable evidence.

And the mesopotamia angle was there just to tell you that hey... 7 Heavens were talked about BEFORE the advent of Abrahamic religion. Tada! And the possibility may exist that Islam is the evolution of these other faiths. But I don't see why you all need to worry about this insinuation, given that the Quran covered you guys by saying 124,000 Prophets came on this planet. So Even if Islam is an evolution of other religion, so what? So this, that Evolution does not stop. ;) It's the greatest show on earth.

I asked very specific questions which you were supose to answer i think.
1) You said Quran mentions 7 earths and seven heavens which was taken from Mesopotamians. I asked you to show me 7 earths in Quran ? So show me please.
2) As you said Mesopotamians could observe 7 planets and there by believed in 7 earths, i then asked you did they also observe 7 heavens as well and believed in that ? or 7 earths were observed and 7 heavens were just a guess by mesopopotamians ??
3) Show me in Quran any mesopotamian era belief which is proven wrong by an undeniable scientific evidence today ? Or it is a poor excuse then by yourself. It is not possible by any means to include only the true facts and leave of the untrue from mesopotmians era in Quran.
4) In the Epic of Creation, dated to 1200 BC, it explains that the god Marduk killed the mother goddess Tiamatand used half her body to create the earth, and the other half to create both the paradise of šamû and the netherworldof irṣitu ...... or A document from a similar period stated that the universe was a spheroid, with three levels of šamû, where the gods dwelt, and where the stars existed, above the three levels of earth below it.[12] funny isn't it. Is this also taken from Mesopotamians and mentioned in Quran ? Now lets ponder over this as it is even more interesting to see NO-Nonsense from ancient civilizations but only the true facts n statements mentioned in Quran. May be Nabi SAW had some form of magic or he was having some advaced knowledge of all the sciences so he could pick up the facts and leave of the myths of all the Greeks, Mesopotamians and other old nations.

Reagarding Humans DNA mixed up with Neaderthals as found out in EU genes analysis, i have not contested that as there has been scientific evidence of interbreeding. So on this i will not argue and i will take it as it is. Humans might have interbred. But i would wait for more research out of my interest and ask why we do not have human/Neaderthal mix generation (having features of both species not still modern humans - Sapiens phenotypically rather just few DNA mixups on gene analysis) if they interbred for 50,000 years ? This is an acedemic question of course and i am quite interested in all such research.

 

[lurker]

I asked very specific questions which you were supose to answer i think.
1) You said Quran mentions 7 earths and seven heavens which was taken from Mesopotamians. I asked you to show me 7 earths in Quran ? So show me please.

I said Mesopotamians had belief in 7 Earths and 7 Heavens. I didn't say the Quran has 7 Earths. I said its suspicious that the Quran also has 7 Heavens.

2) As you said Mesopotamians could observe 7 planets and there by believed in 7 earths, i then asked you did they also observe 7 heavens as well and believed in that ? or 7 earths were observed and 7 heavens were just a guess by mesopopotamians ??

I am not the one who proclaims religion. lol. Some guys in Mesopotamia probably still believed that Zeus is on Mount Olympus. How the hell do I know how they arrived at 7 Earths. But the 7 Planets were observable. You guess is as good as mine how they got to 7 Earths.

3) Show me in Quran any mesopotamian era belief which is proven wrong by an undeniable scientific evidence today ? Or it is a poor excuse then by yourself. It is not possible by any means to include only the true facts and leave of the untrue from mesopotmians era in Quran.

I don't think you are understanding the implications for the Quran if people from Mesopotamia also had 7 Heaven belief. Hell, even Hinduism had the 7 heaven belief BEFORE the Quran published it as well. Now granted its not verbatim, word for word. Meaning for meaning. But damn that number 7 and the word Heaven sort of looks very much like the Quran number 7 and Heaven. Nevermind the 7 Earths or 14 moons. Its the Heaven part which matches. How'd that happen? Coincidence?

4) In the Epic of Creation, dated to 1200 BC, it explains that the god Marduk killed the mother goddess Tiamatand used half her body to create the earth, and the other half to create both the paradise of šamû and the netherworldof irṣitu ...... or A document from a similar period stated that the universe was a spheroid, with three levels of šamû, where the gods dwelt, and where the stars existed, above the three levels of earth below it.[12] funny isn't it. Is this also taken from Mesopotamians and mentioned in Quran ? Now lets ponder over this as it is even more interesting to see NO-Nonsense from ancient civilizations but only the true facts n statements mentioned in Quran. May be Nabi SAW had some form of magic or he was having some advaced knowledge of all the sciences so he could pick up the facts and leave of the myths of all the Greeks, Mesopotamians and other old nations.

I don't believe in Magic. But going by your hypothetical scenario, I don't think He(saw) could include the Greek myths, because that would you know spoil the whole monotheism bit about Islam. So he'd have to leave that part out or adapt it and make it compatible. Same story with the Mesopotamians.

These Origin stories are always fun to read. You should read the greek ones or Norse ones.

Reagarding Humans DNA mixed up with Neaderthals as found out in EU genes analysis, i have not contested that as there has been scientific evidence of interbreeding. So on this i will not argue and i will take it as it is. Humans might have interbred. But i would wait for more research out of my interest and ask why we do not have human/Neaderthal mix generation (having features of both species not still modern humans - Sapiens phenotypically rather just few DNA mixups on gene analysis) if they interbred for 50,000 years ? This is an acedemic question of course and i am quite interested in all such research.

My guess is interbreeding did not happen on a larger scale. More over the way evolution works is that bad genes are ironed out. Genes which are beneficial for the survival of the species are propagated. This is one of the reasons why incestuous offsprings usually have a high chance of genetic defects. Or the Homo sapian genes were just dominant.

 

[drkhan22]

I said Mesopotamians had belief in 7 Earths and 7 Heavens. I didn't say the Quran has 7 Earths. I said its suspicious that the Quran also has 7 Heavens.

So why do we not have 7 earths in Quran ? certainly it was not against monotheistic ? Again a poor argument and totally missing apoint here.

I am not the one who proclaims religion. lol. Some guys in Mesopotamia probably still believed that Zeus is on Mount Olympus. How the hell do I know how they arrived at 7 Earths. But the 7 Planets were observable. You guess is as good as mine how they got to 7 Earths.

You did not know by you jumped to conclusion that they belived in 7 earths because they could see 7 planets. Now contradicting your self.


I don't think you are understanding the implications for the Quran if people from Mesopotamia also had 7 Heaven belief. Hell, even Hinduism had the 7 heaven belief BEFORE the Quran published it as well. Now granted its not verbatim, word for word. Meaning for meaning. But damn that number 7 and the word Heaven sort of looks very much like the Quran number 7 and Heaven. Nevermind the 7 Earths or 14 moons. Its the Heaven part which matches. How'd that happen? Coincidence?

I already mentioned that 7 Heavens is in Quran and not 7 earths. Now you should think why do we have 7 heavens and not seven earths ? If at all it was a copy paste from ancient scriptures. I have already mentioned that it will not a be a surprise to see remnants of original texts revealed to various prophets in these scriptures. But ofcourse we can have no proof what is original and whats is addition so we do not trust any of those scriptures. This is not the case for Quran.

I don't believe in Magic. But going by your hypothetical scenario, I don't think He(saw) could include the Greek myths, because that would you know spoil the whole monotheism bit about Islam. So he'd have to leave that part out or adapt it and make it compatible. Same story with the Mesopotamians.

7 Earths had nothing to do with polytheism did it ? Also i invited you to show any scientific fact proven wrong which was mesopotamian in origin and adapted by Quran. No answer yet.

These Origin stories are always fun to read. You should read the greek ones or Norse ones.

You will always find those stories in greeks manuscripts n mesopotamians i know. We do not have that Fun in Quran. Keep reading all that my friend.

My guess is interbreeding did not happen on a larger scale. More over the way evolution works is that bad genes are ironed out. Genes which are beneficial for the survival of the species are propagated. This is one of the reasons why incestuous offsprings usually have a high chance of genetic defects. Or the Homo sapian genes were just dominant.

Why do you think Neanderthals had bad genes so they are obsolete ? Why do we not have the best of Neanderthals, they were stronger than Humans, and best of Humans after 50,000 of interbreeding ? This was not incestuous my friend, this was 2 different species not just close family relatives or first cousins, sisters or mothers or sons (among one species). In that sense Humans and Neanderthals both had been obsolete by now if they were all incestuous. There is more to it which needs to be understood.

 

[lurker]

Why do you think Neanderthals had bad genes so they are obsolete ? Why do we not have the best of Neanderthals, they were stronger than Humans, and best of Humans after 50,000 of interbreeding ? This was not incestuous my friend, this was 2 different species not just close family relatives or first cousins, sisters or mothers or sons (among one species). In that sense Humans and Neanderthals both had been obsolete by now if they were all incestuous. There is more to it which needs to be understood.

I gave you how selective genes are transferred between 2 individuals. The incestuous part was provided to highlight how that leads to genetic deficiency. I didn't say what the homo sapiens and neanderthals did was incestuous.

Homo sapiens are superior in intelligence to neanderthals. Its not the fittest species that survives, its the species that adapts to change that survives.

Just like how the world has changed from religious governance to more modern secular governments. Its the people who can adapt will go forward. Unfortunately Islam and the Quran like to stay the same way. History is unforgiving to things that do not respond well to change: The Only constant in the Universe is change.

 

[drkhan22]

I gave you how selective genes are transferred between 2 individuals. The incestuous part was provided to highlight how that leads to genetic deficiency. I didn't say what the homo sapiens and neanderthals did was incestuous.

Homo sapiens are superior in intelligence to neanderthals. Its not the fittest species that survives, its the species that adapts to change that survives.

Just like how the world has changed from religious governance to more modern secular governments. Its the people who can adapt will go forward. Unfortunately Islam and the Quran like to stay the same way. History is unforgiving to things that do not respond well to change: The Only constant in the Universe is change.

I respect your belief and i think we had a good discussion about various topics. My aim was to trigger a conversation and see how will i be confronted with from an atheistic point of view. So you helped me in that respect to understand the view point and the arguments atheist carry. For me it is learning process as it helps me to refine my thoughts and arguments. Certainly it also helps me to understand the strengths n weaknesses of an argument. I hope you have no hard feeling either.

Islam will never change my friend, as for as the belief is concerned. Yes Shareeah changed over time that is in accordance with human development. A further proof of recognition of human development in this world. Cheers