Sunnis and Shias should not question each other

[Pakistani1947]

This is how your religion defines your god. You cannot use a definition as an argument. Definitions are arbitrary. Reality is not based on arbitrary definitions, its based on logic and observation of reality. So can you use logic to come to the the conclusion of that definition?

I guess you did not even read whole of my response. I've discussed this topic from logic point of view as well. You did not answer the question , I asked at the end of my response!!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Can ask your question using english letters? I cant read urdu that well.

I guess you did not even read whole of my response. I've discussed this topic from logic point of view as well. You did not answer the question , I asked at the end of my response!!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Okay I am lost about what you are arguing over.

We are talking about design due to complexity and we know its a bad argument because of infinite complexity. What is the point of sharing that video?

not necessarily though. Anything that demands it..will have to face infinite regress
here is a v simple example..

 

[Vitamin_C]

Kehne se kya hota hai? It does matter what some one is saying what matters it can you logically prove what you are saying is correct?

You are saying Allah is one and no one made him. Same way I can say universe is one and no one made it so what?

Going back the the video you posted about engnr Mirza he posited a problem with design from complexity that a complex being such as God is the biggest Boeing 747. So how does he solve that problem. Just saying Allah hai bas ek he hai thats it? Just saying it doesn't solve the problem you have to show how that is logically correct thing to say? Why not just say universe is one, no one made it and it was always there?

He is Allah, the One and Only;-Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;-He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;-And there is none like unto Him.

کہہ دو وہ الله ایک ہے - اللہ بے نیاز ہے - نہ اس کی کوئی اولاد ہے اور نہ وہ کسی کی اولاد ہے - اور اس کے برابر کا کوئی نہیں ہے​

 

[Pakistani1947]

Can ask your question using english letters? I cant read urdu that well.

First of all, based on the hadith, I will present the verses of the Qur'an:

(Qur'an 112: 1-4) قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ َحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا َحَدٌ
He is Allah, the One and Only; -Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; -He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; -And there is none like unto Him.

It is enough for Muslims that the Qur'an says that Allah is one, that He has no offspring and that He is not the offspring of anyone, and that there is no one equal to Him. Let us believe in the Qur'an which Allah revealed to His Messenger, I created a thread for the authenticity of the Qur'an, read it - click this link, the Qur'an is Allah's book - answers to the question of non-Muslims. ...

If you are still not satisfied, then let's come to logic. First of all, How can somebody be a Creator whose nature can be comprehend / grasp by His creatures? In other words, it is not possible for a creature to comprehend / grasp the nature of his Creator. Muslims and non-Muslims accept that there is someone Who has created of this universe, as it cannot come into existence by itself, now the question remains as to who created this Creator. We, as a Muslim, have relied on the Qur'an to believe that this Creator was not created by anyone, on the Day of Judgment, upon asking, we will get an answer from Allah, insha'Allah, but "What will happen to you, Kalia?"!!! Allah Almighty has not demanded you much to be successful in the Hereafter. It has been narrated in a Saheeh Hadeeth:

It is reported on the authority of Talha b. 'Ubaidullah that a person with dishevelled hair, one of the people of Nejd, came to the Messenger of Allah ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ). We heard the humming of his voice but could not fully discern what he had been saying, till he came nigh to the Messenger of Allah ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ). It was then (disclosed to us) that he was asking questions pertaining to Islam. The Messenger of Allah ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ) said:
Five prayers during the day and the night. (Upon this he said: Am I obliged to say any other (prayer) besides these? He (the Holy Prophet, ) said: No, but whatever you observe voluntarily, out of your own free will, and the fasts of Ramadan. The inquirer said: Am I obliged to do anything else besides this? He (the Holy Prophet) said: No, but whatever you do out of your own free will. And the Messenger of Allah told him about the Zakat (poor-rate). The inquirer said: Am I obliged to pay anything else besides this? He (the Holy Prophet) said: No, but whatever you pay voluntarily out of your own free will. The man turned back and was saying: I would neither make any addition to this, nor will decrease anything out of it. The Prophet remarked: He is successful, if he is true to what he affirms.
Sahih Muslim – 100 – Islam360

If you live your life like a practicing Muslim, it is to your own advantage, you will eat healthy food, you will be clean, you will get up early in the morning because of Fajr prayers, you will talk to people with humility and morality. You will be looked upon with respect in your circle, because of trust in Allah you will avoid diseases that are caused due to stress or mental strain, because of the five daily prayers you will have the opportunity to exercise. Yes, there are many physical benefits to fasting. You can find peace of mind by helping the needy. By avoiding the use of drugs which are harmful to you in every way, you will avoid immoral activities; if you marry a practicing Muslim woman she will be obedient and loyal to you, if you If you train your children properly, they will serve you wholeheartedly all their lives; if you obey the law of the land, so you will stay away from any sudden trouble; you will not try to accumulate wealth in this world unnecessarily; if you set a good example for your children, they will also have an ideal personality; similarly, you will be able to reap the innumerable benefits that are for you.

Let me make it clear here or there that Islam demands the above mentioned characteristics, you have to follow the religion of Islam and not its followers, because Islam is the best religion in the world but its adherents, in this age, often are the worst. In the Hereafter, your justification will not be accepted that you did not convert to Islam because the worst people were those who believed in it.

On the other hand, if you deny the existence of Allah, you will be deprived of many of the benefits mentioned above, while I am unable to understand what additional benefits you can get after denying the existence of Allah, which you can't achieve while being a Muslim, despite the danger that if your theory of God's existence in this world proves to be wrong, than in the hereafter, you won't be able to come back to this world to make up for it, while there is a possibility of being thrown into the torment of the fire of Hell forever. So tell me, what are the additional benefits, in the temporary life of this world, that you can get only by being a non-Muslim and for that benefit you are willing to ignore the possibility of eternal torment?

 

[Prince of Dhump]

infinite regress (in its own way) would also be faced by science as the last big bad demon that ,as far as i see, it wont be able to finish. When science finishes one question..another is followed. Say the last question is where does something comes from. Krauss would tell u it comes from nothing but then what is nothing..nothing would be the laws of physics (quantum fields).
and where does those laws come from..etc.

Infinite Regress is mostly faced by the argument of complexity which says that whatever is complex must have a creator.

not necessarily though. Anything that demands it..will have to face infinite regress
here is a v simple example..

Okay I am lost about what you are arguing over.

We are talking about design due to complexity and we know its a bad argument because of infinite complexity. What is the point of sharing that video?

i put the link of the link of the video from a specific timestamp. I didnt intend that u watch the whole video but just to see that example of turtles. I was in a rush to write about it so i put the link from that specific time where the example of turtles for an infinite regress begins.

The reason of giving this example was to show that infinite regress is not a particular concept thats related to creation and God. Its a general proposition and can be applied to other scenarios as well. The 'other scenario' where i intended to apply it to was science


"infinite regress (in its own way) would also be faced by science as the last big bad demon that ,as far as i see, it wont be able to finish. When science finishes one question..another is followed. Say the last question is where does something comes from. Krauss would tell u it comes from nothing but then what is nothing..nothing would be the laws of physics (quantum fields).
and where does those laws come from..etc."

 

[Vitamin_C]

This is the main issue. Atheists do not believe that there was someone or something that created the universe. How do you convince them that:

A) the universe was artificially created
B) It was created not by nature or by a thing, but by a personal, thinking being

Before this is settled there is no point going to Quran or Hadith. If someone doesnt believe in God, how are you trying to convince him with a book written by someone he doesnt believe in.

I would suggest you to study the point of view of the other aude before responding because we have all heard these same arguments over and over and they dont answerr any questions. Ill look for a video that can explain these issues to you in simpler way later today when i get time.

Muslims and non-Muslims accept that there is someone Who has created of this universe, as it cannot come into existence by itself, now the question remains as to who created this Creator.

 

[Pakistani1947]

This is the main issue. Atheists do not believe that there was someone or something that created the universe.

Atheists do not have any evidence either that Universe came into existence on its own.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Wo hy tu me aap ko bata raha hun k understand their point of view.

Atheist are not saying universe came to existance on its own. Maybe the atheists who are phd physicists will say that but most atheists say they do not know where the universe comes from and they will not make a judgement on it unless they have direct evidence to take a position. Atheism just means non belief on God(s).

Its the religious people who are making claims wothout evidence when in reality even they do not know and cannot prove where it comes from.

Most of their arguments are fallacous arguments like:

Special Pleading (Every complex things must have a creator bus mere khuda ko chorh k) Surah Ikhlas is a good example of Special Pleading fallacy. Seems like Allah doesnt care about logic and reasoning (or maybe the Arabs who wrote the book didnt have a background in mantak and falsafa)

Argument From Ignorance (Mere samajh me nhi aata k kainat khud ba khud kaise aa saktr hai therefore #goddidit.

Design Argument also known as Watch Maker Fallacy (Everything looks so perfectly designed therefore it must have creator.

Pascal's Wager (What happens if atheist die and realize there is God?)

All these are old obsolete arguments that have been answered hundreds of years ago but momineen still bring them back. Do you expect people do believe in God based on these beat up fallacious arguments? Maybe madrassa students might fall for it.

Phir aakhir me momineen aa k kehte hain k aapne koi baat maan ny hy nahi hai.
Bhai kaise maanain? To accept these illogical arguements either we have to be knowingly dishonest or retarded.

There are probably many Pakistanis on youtube who have made similar videos in youtube in Urdu if you understand arguments in Urdu better.

Atheists do not have any evidence either that Universe came into existence on its own.

 

[Pakistani1947]

Pascal's Wager (What happens if atheist die and realize there is God?)

Read this part of my response again and answer the paragraph in "red". If you do not wish to answer it, I would take it as if you are not interested in others point of view, hence no use of going any further:

" If you live your life like a practicing Muslim, it is to your own advantage, you will eat healthy food, you will be clean, you will get up early in the morning because of Fajr prayers, you will talk to people with humility and morality. You will be looked upon with respect in your circle, because of trust in Allah you will avoid diseases that are caused due to stress or mental strain, because of the five daily prayers you will have the opportunity to exercise. Yes, there are many physical benefits to fasting. You can find peace of mind by helping the needy. By avoiding the use of drugs which are harmful to you in every way, you will avoid immoral activities; if you marry a practicing Muslim woman she will be obedient and loyal to you, if you If you train your children properly, they will serve you wholeheartedly all their lives; if you obey the law of the land, so you will stay away from any sudden trouble; you will not try to accumulate wealth in this world unnecessarily; if you set a good example for your children, they will also have an ideal personality; similarly, you will be able to reap the innumerable benefits that are for you.

Let me make it clear here or there that Islam demands the above mentioned characteristics, you have to follow the religion of Islam and not its followers, because Islam is the best religion in the world but its adherents, in this age, often are the worst. In the Hereafter, your justification will not be accepted that you did not convert to Islam because the worst people were those who believed in it.

On the other hand, if you deny the existence of Allah, you will be deprived of many of the benefits mentioned above, while I am unable to understand what additional benefits you can get after denying the existence of Allah, which you can't achieve while being a Muslim, despite the danger that if your theory of God's existence in this world proves to be wrong, than in the hereafter, you won't be able to come back to this world to make up for it, while there is a possibility of being thrown into the torment of the fire of Hell forever. So tell me, what are the additional benefits, in the temporary life of this world, that you can get only by being a non-Muslim and for that benefit you are willing to ignore the possibility of eternal torment? "

 

[Vitamin_C]

Eternal Torment
I know your point of view because I was a practising Muslim who prayed 5 times a day in a mosque, my wahabi grandfather used to drag me by my ear at fajr time to go to the mosque.

They had no logic to convince us of those things so they used emotional blackmailing like the fear and threats of non existent eternity in hell or that we will turn into an animal if we do not pray and read Quran.

No one deserves to live their life by threats of torture, and burning. Any God who does that is an immoral God and thus does not deserve to be worshiped.

And I am saying this to you now to set you free from this mental slavery, when you die, no one is going to burn you forever, you will die in peace, no one is going to burn you or torture you or hurt you in any way. And if someone says that they will do that then they are not a God.

Lifestyle
In terms of lifestyle in Islam. What it does is that it creates a thuri hui qoum where children are sexually abused in Madrassas and even women in Burqa not feeling safe to go outside alone. I am not saying Islam teaches to do those things, but that is the side effect of creating a society based on Islam where adult men and women are not allowed to talk to each other or to date each other. In West woman can walk alone in Bikini and no one will bother her because people are not as sexually frustrated as they would be in an Islamic society in which if they cannot afford to get married their only way of having sex is either to get a prostitute or to rape someone. (Yes you are allowed to buy and sell sex slaves in Islam but I cannot do that because my personal sense of morality will not allow me to do that to another human being.)

No one gets health instructions from Holy Books, for that I read nutrition books, you cant find information on calories and types of calories in Quran, everyone has different body with different requirement thats why we need personal trainers in the gym so people do specific exercises for their specific problems and muscle imbalances.

So for me to be a Muslim I would:
1. Have to believe in a lie because there is no evidence to support it
2. Be living in the fear of a fake eternity of torture (I cant get over this, what kind of fucked up barbaric people think of such dark things?)
3. Not drink even a glass of wine even though it is beneficial for my health if I do it in moderation
4. Not being able to have relationships with women which are a big part of our self esteem and happiness.
5. Only outlet to sex would be to marry, to rape or to buy a sex slave
6. Give more importance to an idea rather than a human being (Under blasphemy a person can be killed just for criticizing an idea) To me this is unacceptable. A human being will always have more worth in my eyes than an idea. Thats why I am against Islamophobia, it is okay to criticize Islam but it is not okay to attack Muslims.
7. Have prejudice against homosexuals and women (Quran says women are half as smart as men, their testimony in court is equal half that as a man, and they inherit half of what her brother would)

All of this would not only make me an immoral person, it would also make me not enjoy a normal life, like go out with women, have relationships, maybe a have a drink once in a while, live a happy life free of fear of barbaric ancient arab beliefs like bullshit torture etc etc. Treat everyone with respect whether they are Homosexual, Jew, Woman or anything else.

Read this part of my response again and answer the paragraph in "red". If you do not wish to answer it, I would take it as if you are not interested in others point of few, hence no use of going any further:

" If you live your life like a practicing Muslim, it is to your own advantage, you will eat healthy food, you will be clean, you will get up early in the morning because of Fajr prayers, you will talk to people with humility and morality. You will be looked upon with respect in your circle, because of trust in Allah you will avoid diseases that are caused due to stress or mental strain, because of the five daily prayers you will have the opportunity to exercise. Yes, there are many physical benefits to fasting. You can find peace of mind by helping the needy. By avoiding the use of drugs which are harmful to you in every way, you will avoid immoral activities; if you marry a practicing Muslim woman she will be obedient and loyal to you, if you If you train your children properly, they will serve you wholeheartedly all their lives; if you obey the law of the land, so you will stay away from any sudden trouble; you will not try to accumulate wealth in this world unnecessarily; if you set a good example for your children, they will also have an ideal personality; similarly, you will be able to reap the innumerable benefits that are for you.

Let me make it clear here or there that Islam demands the above mentioned characteristics, you have to follow the religion of Islam and not its followers, because Islam is the best religion in the world but its adherents, in this age, often are the worst. In the Hereafter, your justification will not be accepted that you did not convert to Islam because the worst people were those who believed in it.

On the other hand, if you deny the existence of Allah, you will be deprived of many of the benefits mentioned above, while I am unable to understand what additional benefits you can get after denying the existence of Allah, which you can't achieve while being a Muslim, despite the danger that if your theory of God's existence in this world proves to be wrong, than in the hereafter, you won't be able to come back to this world to make up for it, while there is a possibility of being thrown into the torment of the fire of Hell forever. So tell me, what are the additional benefits, in the temporary life of this world, that you can get only by being a non-Muslim and for that benefit you are willing to ignore the possibility of eternal torment? "

 

[Pakistani1947]

They had no logic to convince us of those things so they used emotional blackmailing like the fear and threats of non existent eternity in hell or that we will turn into an animal if we do not pray and read Quran.

No one deserves to live their life by threats of torture, and burning. Any God who does that is an immoral God and thus does not deserve to be worshiped.

You will not be to comprehend answers to these questions until you believe in God. I will skip it for now.

In terms of lifestyle in Islam. What it does is that it creates a thuri hui qoum where children are sexually abused in Madrassas and even women in Burqa not feeling safe to go outside alone. I am not saying Islam teaches to do those things, but that is the side effect of creating a society based on Islam where adult men and women are not allowed to talk to each other or to date each other. In West woman can walk alone in Bikini and no one will bother her because people are not as sexually frustrated as they would be in an Islamic society in which if they cannot afford to get married their only way of having sex is either to get a prostitute or to rape someone. (Yes you are allowed to buy and sell sex slaves in Islam but I cannot do that because my personal sense of morality will not allow me to do that to another human being.)

I have already answered this question in my previous post:

Let me make it clear here or there that Islam demands the above mentioned characteristics, you have to follow the religion of Islam and not its followers, because Islam is the best religion in the world but its adherents, in this age, often are the worst. In the Hereafter, your justification will not be accepted that you did not convert to Islam because the worst people were those who believed in it

[/QUOTE]

No one gets health instructions from Holy Books, for that I read nutrition books, you cant find information on calories and types of calories in Quran, everyone has different body with different requirement thats why we need personal trainers in the gym so people do specific exercises for their specific problems and muscle imbalances.

Yes, you are right, Qur'an is book of "signs" or a book believes and it is not a book of science. So, we do not expect that it will give you any diet plan but it has given some guidelines as what to eat. Qur'an has prohibited drinking / eating Blood, Alcohol, flesh of barbaric animals and insects. All of the above are not good for human consumption for one reason or the other. Regarding wine Qur'an says that there are some benefits in it but it causes more harm than good (interpretation of meaning). Allow a group of people one cigarette a day and I can guarantee that after few years time most of them would be enjoying a pack of 20 daily.

So for me to be a Muslim I would:
1. Have to believe in a lie because there is no evidence to support it

You can not say existence of God is a lie until you prove it is a lie.

2. Be living in the fear of a fake eternity of torture (I cant get over this, what kind of fucked up barbaric people think of such dark things?)

I am a practicing Muslim, and I know that I am fulfilling at least minimum requirements to be successful in hereafter, hence I have no fear and I believe that Allah is all merciful.

3. Not drink even a glass of wine even though it is beneficial for my health if I do it in moderation

I have already answer this issue above... see cigarette example...

4. Not being able to have relationships with women which are a big part of our self esteem and happiness.
5. Only outlet to sex would be to marry, to rape or to buy a sex slave

You can have four wifes if you can afford. Islam believes in creating family bonds and does not allow extramarital sex. It is a big topic, lets leave it for sometimes later

6. Give more importance to an idea rather than a human being (Under blasphemy a person can be killed just for criticizing an idea) To me this is unacceptable. A human being will always have more worth in my eyes than an idea. Thats why I am against Islamophobia, it is okay to criticize Islam but it is not okay to attack Muslims.

You can not blame Islam for this; nowhere in Qur'an it is mentioned to kill a person who is Blasphemous or who changes his/her religion.

7. Have prejudice against homosexuals and women (Quran says women are half as smart as men, their testimony in court is equal half that as a man, and they inherit half of what her brother would)

Again, it is misinterpretation of Qur'an; In Qur'an it is nowhere mentioned that women are half smart. If you are referring to 2 women's witness equals one man. It is applicable only for being witness in prearranged situations, for example, while signing documents if have to make a women witness than it is better to make two women witness, because sometimes in future if they have to appear in court as evidence than if one become shy or confused due to large gathering of males the other can help her. Qur'an takes into consideration the women's characteristics in general that they are shy.
In accidental situations, for example, a women has witnessed a murder being done. That women's witness will be accepted in court same as a man's witness.

Treat everyone with respect whether they are Homosexual, Jew, Woman or anything else.

Islam agree with you that we should treat everyone with respect whether they are Homosexual, Jew, Woman or anything else.

 

[Mughal1]

Thats a dumb statement to make. Even a grade 2 student will tell you that 1 billion minus billion equals zero.

Dear vitamin c, it is true that not only 1-1=0 but any combination of numbers which equals any other combination also equals zero when taken away from each other eg 1+3-4=0. However this is purely a mathematical concept for practical understanding of things in some situations just like we have concept of negative numbers. Zero is also useful when used as a phone number on the left side of a number eg 0457.

What we are discussing here is absolute nothingness and its implications in respect of origin of the universe. In this case to take away something from something, something has to be there to begin with. This is why if there was nothing to begin with then there could not be anything at all to be taken something away from. This equation ie 0=0 cannot be proven wrong no mater how hard you or people like you try. This equation will always remain true forever. By arguing against it, you are only exposing you own lack of understanding.

Since the question before us is, how did the universe come to be? We have only and only two possibilities a) the universe was created or b) it exited always. It is because if it did not exist already then it could not come into existence all by itself because there was absolutely nothing there from which the universe could spring into being. If it was created then whatever has created it had to be there already otherwise there was nothing to make the universe come into existence.

Now the question about God as to how God came into being is illogical because if God needed to come into existence then we end up back to square one. This is why to think that way makes no sense at all because our logic breaks down.

Now the question, could a simple thing come into existence if it did not exist already from absolute nothingness? Not at all as already explained. Moreover if something was simple then it ought to remain as it is always and forever ie it could not change from simple to complex all by itself due to time duration. Something that was there already had to be either as a simple or as a complex thing because it cannot change from simple to complex or complex to simple by itself due to time duration.

The only way a simple thing could change into a complex things or vice versa is if it was created by a creator and the creator was complex enough to be able to do so.

Our observations about this universe contradict the idea of ever existing universe. More over the universe changed from simple to complex over a period of time and is still changing so it was not ever existing rather it was created by its creator.

Could the creator of the universe be a simplest possible being? No, not at all. Why not? Because if the creator was simple then he could not be ever existing. It is because to ever exist is not an ordinary property or quality of an existing being. So to think the creator had to be simpler than the created being is a stupid logic. Moreover to ever exist and then be able to create other things makes the creator more complex for various reasons because creating things needs knowledge and ability to create etc etc. Reasons like these make all arguments against existence of God invalid.

As I explained already for you, the reason people reject idea of God is their inability to think at a level needed for this purpose. Moreover stupidity of mullahs who explain the revelation of God in a very wrong way whereby people are forced to blame God for each and everything that is wrong in this world for human beings. So all we need is a proper interpretation of the quranic text. However we are all to blame for not having such an interpretation of the quran and we are all suffering for not playing our parts in this process as we were supposed to. We are all arguing with each other leaving the message of God aside. People need to reach third level of thinking before they could understand the quranic text properly. People who cannot explain even a simple obvious mechanism try to talk about God related issues.

I will try and explain that later mean while regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

According to laws of thermo dynamics, energy is eternal, it can neither be created nor destroyed so there is no such thing as absolute nothing. Energy is never used up even when you burn gasoline when you drive, it is just transformed into some other form of energy ie heat.

Just describing the concept of absolute nothing is contrary to logic. The fact that we are trying to describe it makes it something therefore absolute nothing will always be something which means absolute nothing cannot exist.

The closest you can get to absolute nothing is the limit which is inflinitly close to absolute nothing. It is 'close' but not 'completely' absolute nothing.

Everywhere we see in nature, mountains, stars, planets, rivers, lakes all being made naturally without someone 'creating them'. Therefore there is no need nor room for a creator in this universe as far as what we have learned from studying the world around us. We are products of these natural processes.

Complexity comes from simplicity and not the other way round as creationists are suggesting.

Dear vitamin c, it is true that not only 1-1=0 but any combination of numbers which equal any other combination also equal zero when taken away from each other eg 1+3-4=0. However this is purely a mathematical concept for practical understanding of things in some situations just like we have concept of negative numbers.

What we are discussing here is absolute nothingness and its implications in respect of origin of the universe. In this case to take away something from something, something has to be there to begin with. This is why if there was nothing to begin with then there could not be anything at all. This equation ie 0=0 cannot be proven wrong no mater how hard you or people like you try. This equation will always remain true forever. By arguing against it, you are only exposing you own lack of understanding.

Since the question before us is, how did the universe come to be? We have only and only two possibilities a) the universe was created or b) it exited always. It is because if it did not exist already then it could not come into existence all by itself because there was absolutely nothing there from which the universe could spring into being. If it was created then whatever has created it had to be there already otherwise there was nothing to make the universe come into existence.

Now the question about God as to how God came into being is illogical because if God needed to come into existence then we end up back to square one. This is why to think that way makes no sense at all because our logic breaks down.

Now the question, could a simple thing come into existence if it did not exist already from absolute nothingness? Not at all as already explained. Moreover if something was simple then it ought to remain as it is always and forever ie it could not change from simple to complex due to time duration. Something that was there already had to be either simple or complex because it cannot change from simple to complex or complex to simple due to time duration.

The only way a simple thing could change into a complex things or vice versa is if it was created by a creator and the creator was complex enough to be able to do so.

Our observations about this universe contradict the idea of ever existing universe. More over the universe changed from simple to complex over a period of time and is still changing so it was not ever existing rather it was created by its creator.

Could the creator of the universe be a simplest possible being? No, not at all. Why not? Because if the creator was simple then he could not be ever existing. It is because to ever exist is not an ordinary property or quality of an existing being. So to think the creator had to be simpler than the created being is a stupid logic. Moreover to ever exist and then be able to create other things makes the creator more complex for various reasons because creating things needs knowledge and ability to create etc etc. Reasons like these make all arguments against existence of God invalid.

As I explained already for you, the reason people reject idea of God is their inability to think at a level needed for this purpose. Moreover stupidity of mullahs who explain the revelation of God in a very wrong way whereby people are forced to blame God for each and everything that is wrong in this world for human beings. So all we need is a proper interpretation of the quranic text. However we are all to blame for not having such an interpretation of the quran and we are all suffering for not playing our parts in this process. We are all arguing with each other leaving the message of God aside. People need to reach third level of thinking before they could understand the quranic text properly. People who cannot explain even a simple obvious mechanism try to talk about God related issues.

I will try and explain that later mean while regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

According to laws of thermo dynamics, energy is eternal, it can neither be created nor destroyed so there is no such thing as absolute nothing. Energy is never used up even when you burn gasoline when you drive, it is just transformed into some other form of energy ie heat.

Just describing the concept of absolute nothing is contrary to logic. The fact that we are trying to describe it makes it something therefore absolute nothing will always be something which means absolute nothing cannot exist.

The closest you can get to absolute nothing is the limit which is inflinitly close to absolute nothing. It is 'close' but not 'completely' absolute nothing.

Everywhere we see in nature, mountains, stars, planets, rivers, lakes all being made naturally without someone 'creating them'. Therefore there is no need nor room for a creator in this universe as far as what we have learned from studying the world around us. We are products of these natural processes.

Complexity comes from simplicity and not the other way round as creationists are suggesting.

Dear vitamin c, stop being silly and start realising why we are discussing things with each other to begin with. It is because we have a problem that faces all of us which if we will not address or solve properly will keep putting us through terribly painful suffering. This is where you are not showing any concern at all otherwise you will not take the line of reasoning that you have taken whereby you are simply put playing with words to avoid real discussion that needs to be had about the issue.

You are claiming that energy always existed and it cannot be destroyed. In my view you are talking nonsense. It is because existence of anything and everything depends upon its creator in each and every way because only and only creator knows purposes for which he creates something. Energy is created by God for serving his purposes and he can destroy it as and when he so decides. So only God could decide what energy was to be or how it ought to behave etc etc. We humans cannot know nature of things or their properties to the full extend. All we can do is assume things and if our assumptions work for us then we can take that as our true understanding of things. For example, we see people get ill then we give them certain things and they become well. Since knowing this helps us live better and reduce painful suffering we take it as a fact or truth for all practical purposes because it benefits us. So you see all our researches start and end on basis of how things harm us or benefit us. Likewise issue of existence of God is the most important issue for us to be able to live a sensible and beneficial life. If it was not that important we will not be discussing it at all as we do.

Almost each and every argument you put forth is nothing but utter nonsense because it has no good purpose to serve. You are always arguing for sake of it. Let me try and explain to you stages of learning for us human beings which we must reach before we could truly argue about existence of God in a sensible and purposeful way.

I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks due to improvements in our reasoning skill or experience. For example, compare the mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms because they are a lot more complex thing. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanisms then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking skill or ability. So at stage one of our learning we are only and only able to see links between things we can detect with our senses directly.

Once we have reached first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. From here onwards we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undetectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are directly accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if we have trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along but suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike visibly he sees the chain has broken down. In this case the bike rider was able to find this fault very easily for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly to his senses. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so that we could assume what could have caused the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tools or instruments.

Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things and links between them but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things or links between them. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through possible explanations alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this, one can never know the truth with needed reasonable certainty that one needs to know for avoiding painful suffering that humanity has been going through ever since its coming about or coming into being.

This is why taking one bit from the east and another from the west as you and people like you do, you are only exposing your lack of ability to reason things out properly. You have no idea how language works as I explained things for you in another thread, due to which you and people like you think the quran does not contain anything scientific in it. This is why you need to reach these three levels of thinking before you are able to make sense of what I am talking about. You need to learn the fact that whatever information comes from God needs time and effort by human beings to be able to understand it properly. This is very much obvious even among us human beings that we need time to reach levels of understanding of things before we could make proper sense of them. I mean think about why things we do today could not be done by people in the past? It is because they did not reach the thinking and doing level that we have. Likewise we have not yet reached the level of thinking and doing things whereby we could understand the quran properly. Imagine a father and mother have multiple phds but they cannot teach their new born baby whatever they know right away? Why not? Because the baby has to learn how to think and do things at his own pace of leaning things. This is why before being able to understand things properly we cannot criticise or discredit them just because we do not understand them due not reaching the level needed for understanding them.

So start thinking things the right way. Check first if you can understand the visible world, if not try harder and harder. This is our foundational stage of learning. Unless we can reason things that are visible as to how they are interlinked or linked together as a unit we cannot go onto next stage of learning whereat visible and invisible things are interlinked or linked with each other as units or systems. Likewise we cannot see invisible links between God and his revelation and creation unless we have reached that stage of our learning but once we do all will become revealed to our minds. Again you and people like you will have problems because you people do not think explanation is a proof. You people think proof is only that which is visible. Again I explained this already for you in another thread that actual proof is the best possible explanation of something and not the thing outside your mind ie an object. It is because objects outside our minds also need explanations for our minds so that our minds could understand things as to how they are linked or why. Just as physical things are linked together physically so non-physical things are linked together non-physically. This is why they are called explanations or sets of reasons because in any explanation we have reasons linked together in a way to make sense to our minds.

So you have a lot to learn yet before you could discuss idea of existence of God or creation or revelation let alone dismiss existence of God by your senseless reasoning method. I told you right before you started discussing things with me that you are not an atheist because none can be an atheist in true sense of the word. You are just not religious because you do not like religion the way people understand it because it rather than helping humanity hinders it and causes terrible harms and destructions to humanity. However my problem with people like you is you people do not learn things which you need to learn to understand the quran properly. Why only the quran? Because no other book in this world even claims to be word of God. Read them you will soon become aware of this fact. I know this because I have read those books. They are all available on line. I remember giving you link to them in another thread. The only book which claims to be word of God is the quran. Whether the quran is truly word of God or not we will have to find out by ourselves as individuals and that means learning things which help us do that. Your answer to all this is, only people write books not God. If you are not even prepared to consider such a possibility which you must to be logically or rationally consistent then what is your point in discussing things other than wasting your own time as well as of others? People like you also say, we have not seen God handing over a book to Muhammad or that we have no independent witness to this effect. You people just like mullahs have no sense that the quran is a stand alone book. This is why it calls itself KITAABUN MUBEEN. Do you know what these words mean? Mullahs will tell you it is book in which things are made clear. Yes the quran is that as well but these words in the proper context of the quran mean the quran is a stand alone book or a book that stands out as word of God. It does because it is the only book that claims to be from God. No other book in the world does that.

In contrast look at the new testament of the christian bible. It does not even claim to be word of God and when we read it, we are told it is written by Matthew, Luke, mark and John etc and not God. In other words it is a book written by people who are talking about God in their own words. This clearly contradicts christian claim that the bible is revealed word of God. So does it make sense to call a book word of God when the book itself does not even claim to be so and claims otherwise? So why waste one's life following a book which does not even claim to be word of God? The same is true about vedas or avesta or hebrew bible or sikh granths etc. People who claim to be muslims almost all of them are stupid also because they have mistranslated or misinterpreted the quranic text and they are wasting their lives following nonsense of their mullahs. This is why their lives are miserable because they have betrayed the promise they made with God to look after his revealed message by understanding it proeprly and acting upon it faithfully. They did not keep up with their covenant with their God. As I told you before I take almost all people as stupid be they philosophers or scientists or religious leaders etc etc because they have not bothered to raise their levels of thinking as much as they needed to, to understand things properly in their proper context so that we human beings could come out of painful suffering and so that we could turn this world into a living paradise for all of us by following the God given program. As I see it you are not helping even yourself by living the way you are. Yet you dare to talk about human values and human rights etc. You can never do anything good for for yourself or humanity so long as you remain in this mindset.

This is why clear distinction is made by God between people who are Godly and humanist and those who disregard God and humanity. So people who are rebels in the eyes of God will always burn in hell of their own making. So you better think of saving yourself and others or be ready to face consequences of your own harmful and destructive thoughts and actions like all others who have brought upon themselves such situations that they ended up in terrible situations and spent rest of their lives regretting their thoughts and actions. All I can say is, you have whole life ahead of you so live it the way it should be lived. Don't get carried away by all kinds of nonsense instead learn to be a sensible person while there is still time before things end up terrible and you too end up regretting for rest of your life in here as well as in hereafter. As I told you before in another thread avoid living a confused life. Try to gain certainty as much as it is possible for you according to the best of your God given abilities. The quran is the only book in the world worth studying in depth. Once you have reached the level of understanding it properly, it will certainly prove to you that it is truly from God. No human being can produce such a book even today or even in the future. Find out why not? Remember a proof is not necessarily a single point rather all involved points make a proof a proof. Just like any mechanism of any machine. All its components make it what it is. Once you will read the quran properly things will gradually become clear for you. This should be very much obvious for you from the posts I made in response to your posts on this forum. The point to understand is that objections you have been raising I have been clarifying them for you. Had you that level of understanding of things by yourself then you will not have needed my help or you will have raised those points as objections to begin with. This shows you still have a lot to learn and I hope you do for your sake as well as mine. Why for sake of me? Because without your help I cannot make this world a better place just as you cannot without my help. The reason is we are all in the very same boat so if any of us will rock the boat all of us will end up drowned. This is why we cannot allow each other to think and do stupid things which create needless dangers for all of us.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You are claiming that energy always existed and it cannot be destroyed.

That's not what I am claiming, that is the law of conservation of energy and also the 1st law of thermodynamics.

Energy is created by God for serving his purposes and he can destroy it as and when he so decides.

What is your evidence for this nonsense? You have neither scientific evidence for it nor logical philosophical arguments to support this statement.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks due to improvements in our reasoning skill or experience. For example, compare the mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms because they are a lot more complex thing. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanisms then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking skill or ability. So at stage one of our learning we are only and only able to see links between things we can detect with our senses directly.

Once we have reached first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. From here onwards we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undetectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are directly accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if we have trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along but suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike visibly he sees the chain has broken down. In this case the bike rider was able to find this fault very easily for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly to his senses. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so that we could assume what could have caused the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tools or instruments.

Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things and links between them but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things or links between them. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through possible explanations alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this, one can never know the truth with needed reasonable certainty that one needs to know for avoiding painful suffering that humanity has been going through ever since its coming about or coming into being.

You are not being respectful of my time with all that long writing. All those paragraphs you could have explained in 3 lines:

Stage 1: Direct observation
Stage 2: Indirect observation
Stage 3: Using explanation

The problem is that none of the 3 stages apply to god. For example with big bang we cannot observe it cause it happened in the past but we can detect its background radiation and there is math we can do to infer that it happened.

In case of god, you cannot observe it, you cannot detect any of its effects, and there is no mathematical proof or philosophical explanation you can make in its favor. Philosophers have tried since 2000+ years from Greece to China and they failed.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Quran is the only book that claims to be written by God
That's obviously is a false statement, either you are lying or you are ignorant of all the other religious of the world since last 10,000 years.
There are thousands of books, from the book of Mormons to Jewish Bible that claim divinity have you read all of them to come to the Quran?

The only reason you read the Quran is because you were born in a Muslim family and you have a personal bias towards it just like every other religious person has towards the religion they were born in. Unfortunately, I don't care much for personal bias, feelings and emotions, I need hard proof.

So what if it is making a claim?
Just because someone or something is making a claim does it mean we should give all claims a special treatment and assume it to be true? This goes against all logic and reasoning. You might as well flush your brain down the toilet if you want to reason like this.

Regardless of what claim is being made, the default position in every claim is disbelief until the claim is proven to be true. This is a philosophical concept called Burden of Proof.

So as far as we are concerned, Quran is just like any other book with no special status except for sentimental and poetic value unless it is proved beyond doubt that: first a God exist, And that it was this specific book that he wrote. So far none of those have any evidence whatsoever, neither scientific nor philosophical.

Why only the quran? Because no other book in this world even claims to be word of God. Read them you will soon become aware of this fact. I know this because I have read those books. They are all available on line. I remember giving you link to them in another thread. The only book which claims to be word of God is the quran.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Again, it is misinterpretation of Qur'an; In Qur'an it is nowhere mentioned that women are half smart.

Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence).

Read the whole verse especially the bolded part. It says there needs to be an extra woman because if one of the woman forgets the other one can remind her. Quran is obviously implying women are forgetful and unreliable compared to men therefore there needs to be 2 women to replace 1 man.

Now there are several hadith from Sahih Bukhari which confirms that in Islam women are regarded as intellectually inferior to men.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." Bukhari 3:48:826

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." Bukhari 1:6:301

It doesn't seem like this is the work or guidance of the creator of the world but rather an ignorant and misogynistic Arab people.

Again, it is misinterpretation of Qur'an; In Qur'an it is nowhere mentioned that women are half smart. If you are referring to 2 women's witness equals one man. It is applicable only for being witness in prearranged situations, for example, while signing documents if have to make a women witness than it is better to make two women witness, because sometimes in future if they have to appear in court as evidence than if one become shy or confused due to large gathering of males the other can help her. Qur'an takes into consideration the women's characteristics in general that they are shy.
In accidental situations, for example, a women has witnessed a murder being done. That women's witness will be accepted in court same as a man's witness.

First of all Quran says the reason to have 2 women is that women are forgetful and the other woman can remind her.

Secondly you just made up that argument about women being shy I could not find it in any Islamic source

Third, this is a disadvantage to women not an advantage. What if the woman is not shy and wants to give her testimony, will it be accepted just like a man? I don't think you are being honest when you make up your arguments you are just trying to defend your religion no matter what. And even if one of them is shy and doesn't show up to court the other one's testimony wont be accepted as you still need 2 female witness.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Yes but you are wrong. I am not talking about Muslim, I am talking about the effects of Islamic doctrines.

When you are judging a religious or political ideology, you do not just judge it based on its content, you judge it based on its affect on society.

Aise tu Communism me bhi bhot se achi baatay likhi hui hain? But we know its a failed system because of how it ended up. Same way we know Islamic system is failed as any country that implemented it failed. And if you apply Islamic rules it leads to a thuri hui sexually frustrated society.

Even during Islamic Golden Age, they had freedom of Speech, their system was more similar to western system than it is to what the Quran teaches. The things that writers say from that time, if someone says it today they will be killed for blasphemy just read the writings of Muslim from the Muslim Golden Age.

I have already answered this question in my previous post: