Science, Arts, Belief, Right & Wrong...

[Sohail Shuja]

Sure but also check the number of citations. Articles with more citations tend to be more credible than ones with few or no citations.

Come on Doc... your reference study of Gay gene never replicated results, and you are asking me to produce an article with more citations.... isn't that to be nearly called a DOUBLE STANDARD?

 

[Tenacious Khan]

Well, it is totally justified to live with an idea that I am trying to find the God, I have not found Him yet. However, living with a conclusion that He Does Not Exist.... is a tall claim.

You may be right in saying that Science cannot be helpful enough to help to design a test, through which the Existence of God, The Designer and the Creator can be proved/verified.

But here, aren't we just pushing the limits of Science too much on this?


Please Doc....

Organic Morality is not something which has been outlived by human evolution and existence. You and me, both are in a state of evolution, with the course of time.

So what we have NOW, is also Organic.

And my question is not why you do not believe in a God or why not you have chosen any religion for yourself.

I am plainly trying to find the answer to the question of determination of Right from Wrong. I am no questioner of your faith/belief/disbelief and neither I am a preacher of Islam/Christianity/Buddhism etc. etc...

I need a scientific proof that stealing is wrong.
Can your scientific wisdom prove it?

This is perhaps the fifth time you have asked Vitamin_C not to bring religion into the debate and stick to a simple point and enlighten us on how modern day moral values are scientifically justified. However, the moron that he is unable to answer the question, beats about the bush, over and over and over again. He thinks he is fooling others, yet anyone with even a peanut for a brain could recognize that he's only fooling himself. ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I do not have any more time to write a detailed answer as I have things to attend to and hit the gym but ill leave a video that explains this topic more thoroughly. Also check the description he has reference the articles that you are asking for.

Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality - PubMed

In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual's number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%. It has been hypothesized that this fraternal birth order effect reflects the progressive immunization of some mothers to...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Birth Order and Sibling Sex Ratio of Children and Adolescents Referred to a Gender Identity Service

In adult male samples, homosexuality is associated with a preponderance of older brothers (i.e., the fraternal birth order effect). In several studies comparing gender dysphoric youth, who are likely to be homosexual in adulthood, to clinical or non-clinical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Homosexuality in men and number of older brothers - PubMed

These results restrict the range of possible theories of the birth order phenomenon to those that can explain not only why older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males but also why older sisters neither enhance this effect nor counteract it.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Quantitative and theoretical analyses of the relation between older brothers and homosexuality in men - PubMed

Meta-analysis of aggregate data from 14 samples representing 10,143 male subjects shows that homosexuality in human males is predicted by higher numbers of older brothers, but not by higher numbers of older sisters, younger brothers, or younger sisters. The relation between number of older...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Fraternal Birth Order, Family Size, and Male Homosexuality: Meta-Analysis of Studies Spanning 25 Years - PubMed

The fraternal birth order effect is the tendency for older brothers to increase the odds of homosexuality in later-born males. This study compared the strength of the effect in subjects from small versus large families and in homosexual subjects with masculine versus feminine gender identities...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Come on Doc... your reference study of Gay gene never replicated results, and you are asking me to produce an article with more citations.... isn't that to be nearly called a DOUBLE STANDARD?

 

[Tenacious Khan]

I think you tried to make a point that Islam is against slavery and you got put down hardcore. Since then you haven't replied to my counter argument and resorted to personal attacks.

You said you can fill this forum up with hadiths and quranic verses that show how Islam is against slavery. I challenge you to do that. So I can enjoy your humiliation a bit more but I know you are not going to do that and find some excuse to escape.

Your whole religion is based on lies, dishonesty, blackmailing and brainwashing. I don't think you even feel ashamed to worship a God who threatens to burn someone for eternity just because he didn't stroke his ego by worshipping him. Only a sick human being can worship someone who threatens to torture and burn someone for eternity. Its immoral, unethical, barbaric, egoistic and sadistic.

You lied about slavery in Islam so I will set the record straight once and for all.

Sahih Bukhari

Vol. 7-#137 Narrated Abu al-Khudri: "We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's messenger about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.""

Here, Muslims had taken female slaves, and had sex with them. Muhammad approved of this. He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.

Vol. 5-#459 [This Hadith is similar to the above. However, additional details are added]. Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: "I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu said, "We went out with Allah's messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said "How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah's messenger while he is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.""


Here, the Muslims attacked the Banu Mustaliq, and took slaves. The female slaves were distributed as booty to the Muslim soldiers. Being away from home, the soldiers became horny, and want to have sexual relations with the newly captured female slaves. They went to Muhammad and asked about coitus interruptus. He told them not to practice that, but to complete the sexual act with the slaves. Related Hadith show that they didn't want to get the women pregnant because they wanted to be able to sell them later on. Under Islamic law they were not allowed to sell pregnant female slaves.

In effect, Muhammad okayed the rape of female prisoners.

Vol. 3-#765

Narrated Kuraib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."


Here a woman frees a slave girl, but Muhammad says that she would have gotten more (heavenly) reward if she had given the slave one of her uncles, thus keeping the slave in slavery.

Vol. 7-#734 "....At the door of the [Muhammad's] room there was a slave to whom I went and said, "Ask the permission for me to enter".....

This is a long Hadith, and the quote reveals that Muhammad has slaves working in his house.


Vol. 7-#344 Narrated Anas: "Allah's messenger went to the house of his slave tailor, and he was offered a dish of gourd of which he started eating. I have loved to eat gourd since I saw Allah's messenger eating it."

This Hadith shows that another one of Muhammad's slaves was a tailor.

Vol. 5-#637 Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes" He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."

The note for this Hadith says "Buraida hated Ali because he had taken a slave girl form the booty and considered that as something not good."

Here Ali took a newly captured slave girl, and had sex with her. When Muhammad was told about it, he approved of it. Note that slaves were considered as booty, and as a man’s property, they can use the female slave for sex, i.e., rape them.

Vol. 5-#512 Narrated Anas: ".....The prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives...."

This Hadith details the attack on the Jews of Khaibar. Again, many of the women and children were taken and made into slaves.


Vol. 5-Chapter 67 Narrated Ibn Ishaq: The Ghazwa (attack upon) Uyaina bin Hisn waged against Banu Al-Anbar, a branch of Banu Tamim. The prophet sent Uyaina to raid them. He raided them and killed some of them and took some others as captives.

Here, Muhammad sent out his men to attack another tribe. The killed some of them and took others as captives. Once again, the Muslims attacked a neighboring tribe.


Vol. 5-#182 Narrated Aisha: "Abu Bakr had a slave who used to give him some of his earnings.

Vol. 5-#50 Narrated Amr Maimun: "....The slave of Al-Mughira..."
[another Muslim who owned the slave that killed Umar.]

....Al-Abbas had the greatest number of slaves....
[Al-Abbas, the future Muslim leader had many slaves].


Vol. 9-#462 Narrated Aisha: "...Furthermore you may ask the slave girl who will tell you the truth". So the prophet asked Barira (my slave girl)...

Aisha had her own slave.


Also, volume 7-#s 845, 341, 352, 371, 410, 413, 654, ch. 22, ch. 23, and
volume 1-#s 29, 439, 661,
volume 9-#s ch. 23, ch. 32, #293, 296, 277, 100, 80.

Abu Dawud
Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 597 - "On a Man who Beats His Slave While he is in the Sacred State (wearing Ihram)."

#1814- "(Abu Bakr) began to beat him (Bakr's slave) while the apostle of Allah was smiling and saying: "Look at this man who is in the sacred state, what is he doing?" [The note for this Hadith says "Abu Bakr beat his slave to teach him sense of responsibility."]

Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 683 - "On the Marriage of a Slave without the Permission of His Masters"

#2074- "Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying: "If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void."


Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 1317 - "Contractual Obligation of a Slave."

#3499, 3500- "The contractual obligation of a slave is three days. If he finds defect in the slave within three days, he may return it without any evidence; if he finds a defect after three days, he will be required to produce evidence that the slave had the defect when he brought it."

This right here is what I wanted the audience to see i.e. your real face and your idea of conducting a healthy debate:

Your whole religion is based on lies, dishonesty, blackmailing and brainwashing. I don't think you even feel ashamed to worship a God who threatens to burn someone for eternity just because he didn't stroke his ego by worshipping him. Only a sick human being can worship someone who threatens to torture and burn someone for eternity. Its immoral, unethical, barbaric, egoistic and sadistic.

Mission accomplished! The fact that you were burning up from my earlier comment, goes on to show that I managed to get under your skin and blew you out of the water, just like I promised. ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Actually no. That’s a statement that I have made dozens of times already and I stand by it and demonstrated it. The only thing you blew is your own piss in your own face as I had told you earlier. You failed to prove your bullshit about Islam abolishing slavery and it flew back in your own face and you have no answers to it that you have to retort to personal insults and trying to score some desperate brownie points to save some face. Sorry for putting you down in such a brutal way but time will heal your butt hurt :)

Mission accomplished! The fact that you were burning up from my earlier comment, goes on to show that I managed to get under your skin and blew you out of your waters, just like I promised. ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Lmao so now it's the gay gene that's stopping him from believing in God and reconciling religion and science. Brilliant!

 

[Iconoclast]

This right here is what I wanted the audience to see i.e. your real face and your idea of conducting a healthy debate:



Mission accomplished! The fact that you were burning up from my earlier comment, goes on to show that I managed to get under your skin and blew you out of your waters, just like I promised. ?

I'd seen that long ago based on his arbitrary outbursts and erratic approach towards scientific proof or lack of it. Hence why I had to put him away on ignore. The man is what I call a lobotomized programmed zombie.

 

[Tenacious Khan]

Actually no. That’s a statement that I have made dozens of times already and I stand by it and demonstrated it. The only thing you blew is your own piss in your own face as I had told you earlier. You failed to prove your bullshit about Islam abolishing slavery and it flew back in your own face and you have no answers to it that you have to retort to personal insults and trying to score some desperate brownie points to save some face. Sorry for putting you down in such a brutal way but time will heal your butt hurt :)

Continue looking for the face-saving all you want, but won't help now. It's too late. ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

No, someone asked a question about homosexuality and I answered him.

Lmao so now it's the gay gene that's stopping him from believing in God and reconciling religion and science. Brilliant!

 

[Tenacious Khan]

I'd seen that long ago based on his arbitrary outbursts and erratic approach towards scientific proof or lack of it. Hence why I had to put him away on ignore. The man is what I call a lobotomized programmed zombie.

hahaha...... I wish you hadn't put him on ignore, because I was quite enjoying the thrashing he was receiving left right and center. Not that Sohail or HimSar are doing a bad job, but when it comes to whipping you are in a league of your own. ?

 

[Iconoclast]

hahaha...... I wish you hadn't put him on ignore, because I was quite enjoying the thrashing he was receiving left right and center. Not that Sohail or HimSar are doing a bad job, but when it comes to whipping you are in a league of your own. ?

Rofl why thank you sire..... Alas! for my patience for dolts depletes at the speed of light. :P
I think everyone here did a wonderful job of making him look like a blonde bimbo.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Guys if you have no value to add to the conversation and just display your personal dislike for me and my point of view then do so with a constructive argument rather than personal attacks.

We are all civilzed people and we can communicate our point of view in a civilized manner with arguments and evidence.

I'd seen that long ago based on his arbitrary outbursts and erratic approach towards scientific proof or lack of it. Hence why I had to put him away on ignore. The man is what I call a lobotomized programmed zombie.

Continue looking for the face-saving all you want, but won't help now. It's too late. ?

 

[Tenacious Khan]

Guys if you have no value to add to the conversation and just display your personal dislike for me and my point of view then do so with a constructive argument rather than personal attacks.

We are all civilzed people and we can communicate our point of view in a civilized manner with arguments and evidence.

So, you've memory loss too? Haven't I just showed you the mirror on your "civilized" discussion standards?

Guess we have gotten on your nerves, now you are misspelling civilized? I think you have never looked up the spelling of civilized in your precious Oxford dictionary let alone know what it really means.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Facts are that I replied to both of you and both of you ran away from the arguments and started engaging in personal attacks instead. None of you replied to my counter argument.

I will accept what you guys are saying if you can point to a single argument in this thread that I have lost?

These closing statements summarize your entire debate: You and your religion are full of lies, dishonesty. If I am wrong, point to a single argument in which I lost of in which I was wrong?

Rofl why thank you sire..... Alas! for my patience for dolts depletes at the speed of light. :P
I think everyone here did a wonderful job of making him look like a blonde bimbo.

hahaha...... I wish you hadn't put him on ignore, because I was quite enjoying the thrashing he was receiving left right and center. Not that Sohail or HimSar are doing a bad job, but when it comes to whipping you are in a league of your own. ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Oh so you have never made a typo in your life?

?

So, you've memory loss too? Haven't I just showed you the mirror on your "civilized discussion standards"?

Guess we have gotten on your nerves, now you are misspelling civilized? Guess you have never checked up the spelling of civilized in your precious Oxford dictionary let alone know what it really means.

 

[Tenacious Khan]

Facts are that I replied to both of you and both of you ran away from the arguments and started engaging in personal attacks instead. None of you replied to my counter argument.

I will accept what you guys are saying if you can point to a single argument in this thread that I have lost?

These closing statements summarize your entire debate: You and your religion are full of lies, dishonesty. If I am wrong, point to a single argument in which I lost of in which I was wrong?

Now you are just blabbering and delusional as always. There you were trying to police us on moral values and ethics of debate. Take pity on yourself. We have given you enough doze for the day, no fun in arguing when the opponent is down & out and from the looks of it, you surely are! ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Yeah sorry, come back when you can show me that I lost the argument instead of asserting your bull shit everywhere.

Now you are just blabbering and delusional as always. There you were trying to police us on moral values and ethics of debate. Take pity on yourself. We have given you enough doze for the day, no fun in arguing when the opponent is down & out and from the looks of it, you surely are! ?

 

[Tenacious Khan]

Oh so you have never made a typo in your life?

Weren't you planning on hitting the gym or was that just one of your usual moves to weasel out of the trap Sohail had set for you? ?

 

[Steyn]

Heh. I don't have the time to read several pages of this thread but i can tell it's going to be nonsense if Vitamin_C - the guy who told me things like living organic molecules and disease genes or crap like that - unfortunately for him i studied microbiology and his bullshit was hilarious to say the least - is debating here.

He's also the moron that thinks Greeks knew what a kid looked like microscopically in the womb without the invention of microscopes for centuries.

Then again, you've to be a moron of highest caliber to be an atheist.

Just be careful guys, he or his friend runs a YouTube channel that maligns Islam and Islamic scholars and throws dirt and vicious lies about Islam. So he's not your average atheist but far more malignant.

 

[HimSar]

I think you tried to make a point that Islam is against slavery and you got put down hardcore. Since then you haven't replied to my counter argument and resorted to personal attacks.

You said you can fill this forum up with hadiths and quranic verses that show how Islam is against slavery. I challenge you to do that. So I can enjoy your humiliation a bit more but I know you are not going to do that and find some excuse to escape.

Your whole religion is based on lies, dishonesty, blackmailing and brainwashing. I don't think you even feel ashamed to worship a God who threatens to burn someone for eternity just because he didn't stroke his ego by worshipping him. Only a sick human being can worship someone who threatens to torture and burn someone for eternity. Its immoral, unethical, barbaric, egoistic and sadistic.

You lied about slavery in Islam so I will set the record straight once and for all.

Sahih Bukhari

Vol. 7-#137 Narrated Abu al-Khudri: "We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's messenger about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.""

Here, Muslims had taken female slaves, and had sex with them. Muhammad approved of this. He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.

Vol. 5-#459 [This Hadith is similar to the above. However, additional details are added]. Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: "I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu said, "We went out with Allah's messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said "How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah's messenger while he is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.""


Here, the Muslims attacked the Banu Mustaliq, and took slaves. The female slaves were distributed as booty to the Muslim soldiers. Being away from home, the soldiers became horny, and want to have sexual relations with the newly captured female slaves. They went to Muhammad and asked about coitus interruptus. He told them not to practice that, but to complete the sexual act with the slaves. Related Hadith show that they didn't want to get the women pregnant because they wanted to be able to sell them later on. Under Islamic law they were not allowed to sell pregnant female slaves.

In effect, Muhammad okayed the rape of female prisoners.

Vol. 3-#765

Narrated Kuraib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."


Here a woman frees a slave girl, but Muhammad says that she would have gotten more (heavenly) reward if she had given the slave one of her uncles, thus keeping the slave in slavery.

Vol. 7-#734 "....At the door of the [Muhammad's] room there was a slave to whom I went and said, "Ask the permission for me to enter".....

This is a long Hadith, and the quote reveals that Muhammad has slaves working in his house.


Vol. 7-#344 Narrated Anas: "Allah's messenger went to the house of his slave tailor, and he was offered a dish of gourd of which he started eating. I have loved to eat gourd since I saw Allah's messenger eating it."

This Hadith shows that another one of Muhammad's slaves was a tailor.

Vol. 5-#637 Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes" He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."

The note for this Hadith says "Buraida hated Ali because he had taken a slave girl form the booty and considered that as something not good."

Here Ali took a newly captured slave girl, and had sex with her. When Muhammad was told about it, he approved of it. Note that slaves were considered as booty, and as a man’s property, they can use the female slave for sex, i.e., rape them.

Vol. 5-#512 Narrated Anas: ".....The prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives...."

This Hadith details the attack on the Jews of Khaibar. Again, many of the women and children were taken and made into slaves.


Vol. 5-Chapter 67 Narrated Ibn Ishaq: The Ghazwa (attack upon) Uyaina bin Hisn waged against Banu Al-Anbar, a branch of Banu Tamim. The prophet sent Uyaina to raid them. He raided them and killed some of them and took some others as captives.

Here, Muhammad sent out his men to attack another tribe. The killed some of them and took others as captives. Once again, the Muslims attacked a neighboring tribe.


Vol. 5-#182 Narrated Aisha: "Abu Bakr had a slave who used to give him some of his earnings.

Vol. 5-#50 Narrated Amr Maimun: "....The slave of Al-Mughira..."
[another Muslim who owned the slave that killed Umar.]

....Al-Abbas had the greatest number of slaves....
[Al-Abbas, the future Muslim leader had many slaves].


Vol. 9-#462 Narrated Aisha: "...Furthermore you may ask the slave girl who will tell you the truth". So the prophet asked Barira (my slave girl)...

Aisha had her own slave.


Also, volume 7-#s 845, 341, 352, 371, 410, 413, 654, ch. 22, ch. 23, and
volume 1-#s 29, 439, 661,
volume 9-#s ch. 23, ch. 32, #293, 296, 277, 100, 80.

Abu Dawud
Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 597 - "On a Man who Beats His Slave While he is in the Sacred State (wearing Ihram)."

#1814- "(Abu Bakr) began to beat him (Bakr's slave) while the apostle of Allah was smiling and saying: "Look at this man who is in the sacred state, what is he doing?" [The note for this Hadith says "Abu Bakr beat his slave to teach him sense of responsibility."]

Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 683 - "On the Marriage of a Slave without the Permission of His Masters"

#2074- "Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying: "If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void."


Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 1317 - "Contractual Obligation of a Slave."

#3499, 3500- "The contractual obligation of a slave is three days. If he finds defect in the slave within three days, he may return it without any evidence; if he finds a defect after three days, he will be required to produce evidence that the slave had the defect when he brought it."

Oh you sick skewed sod. Your zeroing in on history's elements pertaining to specific situations and twisted made up interpretations of those say everything about you and your very peculiar religious down bringing, whether it was done to you or you subjected yourself to it. Hope you get peace, and if you're by any chance in science, God forbid, then an open, unbiased, discerning approach and ability to critically evaluate, appreciate and accept evidence.