Rising Cause Of Atheism In Pakistan

[Citizen X]

Man, do you have some reading and comprehension issues? Didn't I say that act of Punishment is a State affair and need a formal deliberation from state authorized Jurists and scholars. Individuals can't take any law in their own hand or kill a person under any allegations.

But that poor man was just following a hadith of sar tan se judah narrated by no other than Hazrat Ali r.a. He didn't read any hadith that "Punishment is a State affair and need a formal deliberation from state authorized Jurists and scholars" because AFAIK such a hadith does not exist

(I'm not claiming I've read all the hadith, can't blame me there because the last time I checked there are over 50 hadith books and many of them consisting of many volumes. Not even counting the shia hadith books.)

So how do you resolve this situation?

 

[knowledge88]

Man, do you have some reading and comprehension issues? Didn't I say that act of Punishment is a State affair and need a formal deliberation from state authorized Jurists and scholars. Individuals can't take any law in their own hand or kill a person under any allegations.

Don't Hadith deniers reject Hadith under some logic. Why do they use logic in religion then? Scholars (real ones) who accept Hadith or a ruling also do so under a logic or a rational. In Islamic Jurisprudence every court decision comes with a reasoning including the cases of blasphemy or any penalty attached to it.

You are telling me if the government laws like Pakistans law is based on flase hadees and against Quran then it is ok for the government to kill the blasphemer ?
Also to enlighten you about hadees.
A false hadees can be carried out by the state ? In an Islamic state it is ok to have a law against the Quran ? As long as an individual is not committing a grave sin of killing against the Quran and state is doing it , it is fine ?

 

[knowledge88]

Man, do you have some reading and comprehension issues? Didn't I say that act of Punishment is a State affair and need a formal deliberation from state authorized Jurists and scholars. Individuals can't take any law in their own hand or kill a person under any allegations.

Don't Hadith deniers reject Hadith under some logic. Why do they use logic in religion then? Scholars (real ones) who accept Hadith or a ruling also do so under a logic or a rational. In Islamic Jurisprudence every court decision comes with a reasoning including the cases of blasphemy or any penalty attached to it.

Also you must follow the hadees , don't make changes. According to SuunanabiDawd hadees a blind man was brought to prophet Muhammad pbuh who had killed his wife.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh asked him why he killed his wife , blind man responded because she said bad words about prophet Muhammad pbuh. Prophet Muhammad pbuh said , you did the right thing then.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh never said, you don't have a right to kill. State will give the death penalty only.
Now , will you follow the hadees and kill the blasphemer yourself or will you report to the state and will not follow the hadees , by the way this is an authentic hadees from Saha satta
Sunan Abi Dawud 4361

Read the full hadees with reference.

Search Results - Search Results - A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (page 1) - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

 

[Eigoroll]

Fine quote me all the hadith.

Before I answer that, how do you pray?

This is not how he does things as is evident from the many messengers sent with revelation before Prophet Muhammad s.a.w

Exactly the point. Use your mind beyond your limited prejudice. Why a prophet, why not just give the book, so people can read and decide.

How you came to that conclusion is bewildering.

Did you read the understand of this Aya? Give me the meaning and then I will satisfy your little bewildering mind.

Didn't you just spend half a day trying to prove they are all holy

Would you quote me from my half day, "they are all holly"

There I fixed it for you.

Tu-maa-toh / Tu-me- toh. Good job.

Yet you defy it outright by saying you need the hadith to fully understand your deen.

Absolutely. You missed the whole point. Go back to Aya

Then it's not even worth wasting time with you on this subject, because if you would have read it you would find such ridiculous, non sensical outright blasphemous hadith in it, that you would really challenge your views on how sahih the sahih is.

I didn't read the whole Bukhari, but I can clearly see that you are bit dim on connecting dots. I have read Hadiths called problematic by someone like you. Didn't turn out as Propbelamtic as he thought. There are some Hadiths which are debatable. You can leave them and move on. The issue is to disregard the whole office of Hadith as invalid.

 

[Eigoroll]

because AFAIK such a hadith does not exist

Not a Hadith. common sense in any state. Such people would be declared criminals in any state Including a state which follows Quran and Hadith. People read the verse of Quran on the punishment of murder and could carry it on individualy. No Hadith needed there.

You are telling me if the government laws like Pakistans law is based on flase hadees and against Quran then it is ok for the government to kill the blasphemer ?

Muslim Jurists who are experts of Hadith, they don't implement Ahadeeth contradicting Quran. It's on of the foremost principle in Hadith science.

Those who supports Blasphemy Punishment, they can use this verse from Quran instead of Hadith:
The punishment of those who run around and spread mischief about Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” Qur’an 5:33-34

Also you must follow the hadees , don't make changes. According to SuunanabiDawd hadees a blind man was brought to prophet Muhammad pbuh who had killed his wife

Those were Sahaba under the care of the prophet. They were learning. If Prophet believed him telling the truth then non one could challenge him.

Let me flip the script for you. Quran has no specific instructions about women and children present in a war theater. But the Prophet forbade to kill woman and children in a hadith. Do you have a problem with this hadith too?

 

[Citizen X]

Before I answer that, how do you pray?

I used to, I don't anymore.

Exactly the point. Use your mind beyond your limited prejudice. Why a prophet, why not just give the book, so people can read and decide.

Why did Allah have send down anything, he could have just willed it and we all would be perfect Muslims, use your mind beyond your limited prejudice and ponder on that for a while.

Did you read the understand of this Aya? Give me the meaning and then I will satisfy your little bewildering mind.

I'm in no mood for verbal gymnastics, making wild leaps of faith and jumping through mental hoops just so you can twist and contort it to mean what you want it to mean.

Would you quote me from my half day, "they are all holly"

Well you believe them to the Prophets words and saying and the Prophet most certainly is holy. You don't need to say it, you imply it loud and clear.

Tu-maa-toh / Tu-me- toh.

Not in this case, you are under no obligation to follow them since they are not part of or contain any deen.

I didn't read the whole Bukhari

Then it's not even worth wasting time with you on this subject

There are some Hadiths which are debatable. You can leave them and move on.

Why? Didn't you just spend half a day trying to prove they are all holy, true and need to be followed, then how can we leave any out? Would you leave any ayat of the Quran out?

I have read some Hadiths called problematic by someone like you. Didn't turn out as Propbelamtic as he thought.

So you are totally fine with that the Prophet slept with a little girl, that he went and slept with 11 different women in one night, that the Prophet contemplated suicide at one point in his life or that he came under magic spells?
(These are some of the real tame well known ones from that huge depository known as Sahih Bhukari )

 

[Citizen X]

Not a Hadith. common sense in any state. Such people would be declared criminals in any state Including a state which follows Quran and Hadith. People read the verse of Quran on the punishment of murder and could carry it on individualy. No Hadith needed there.

None of this is in the hadith or Quran that a state has to blah blah blah. Quran is clear as daylight on this and Hadith is also clear as daylight on this. Only thing is they both contradict each other, what you are doing is as I said earlier is verbal gymnastics trying to make two polar ends compatible with each other i.e throwing the Quran under the bus trying to save hadith.

Muslim Jurists who are experts of Hadith, they don't implement Ahadeeth contradicting Quran.

But how can any hadith from the Sahih sitta contradict the Quran? Once again you spent better part of the day arguing that they are all authentic sayings of the Prophet and need to be followed. They are after all Sahih i.e authentic, or are you saying all the work these Imams did collecting and sorting out "diamonds" from rubble wasn't foolproof? If so then why are they called and classed sahih? Or are you saying that Sahih hadith is not so Sahih after all? And how will the common man know which are sahih and which aren't?

Those who supports Blasphemy Punishment, they can use this verse from Quran instead of Hadith:

Instead! What do you mean instead, didn't you just said that the Hadith is the exegesis of the Quran, in fact then only the hadith should be used since it has all the details, right?

Those were Sahaba under the care of the prophet. They were learning. If Prophet believed him telling the truth then non one could challenge him.

So basically said in not so many words to all around, its perfectly alright to kill anyone who insults him. Ghustakh ki ek hi saaza, sar tan se juda! So these guys have been right all along!

Let me flip the script for you. Quran has no specific instructions about women and children present in a war theater. But the Prophet forbade to kill woman and children in a hadith. Do you have a problem with this hadith too?

First of all how many women and children were fighting in armies against the Muslims at that time and if today you are in a theater of war, lets say against the US army who have many women in the armed forces you see a woman soldier is about to shoot you dead, will you let her kill you, since you read in a hadith that it is forbidden to kill women and children?

 

[knowledge88]

Not a Hadith. common sense in any state. Such people would be declared criminals in any state Including a state which follows Quran and Hadith. People read the verse of Quran on the punishment of murder and could carry it on individualy. No Hadith needed there.

Muslim Jurists who are experts of Hadith, they don't implement Ahadeeth contradicting Quran. It's on of the foremost principle in Hadith science.

Those who supports Blasphemy Punishment, they can use this verse from Quran instead of Hadith:
The punishment of those who run around and spread mischief about Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” Qur’an 5:33-34



Those were Sahaba under the care of the prophet. They were learning. If Prophet believed him telling the truth then non one could challenge him.

Let me flip the script for you. Quran has no specific instructions about women and children present in a war theater. But the Prophet forbade to kill woman and children in a hadith. Do you have a problem with this hadith too?

Do not alter the meaning of Quran to support your point. This is true blasphemy.
Fact is Allah has never mentioned in Quran punishment for blasphemy.
See what Dr Shabbir is saying in this video from 8:43
Just watch it for a minute.

 

[Citizen X]

Do not alter the meaning of Quran to support your point. This is true blasphemy.

verbal gymnastics trying to make two polar ends compatible with each other i.e throwing the Quran under the bus trying to save hadith.

^^^^ Unfortunately this is the only way they can resolve these conflicts so they gladly do it to prove hadith's superiority.

 

[Wake up Pak]

For ahadith followers:

What Prophet Mohammad uttered, we can not authenticate with certainty, whether he said it or not?
Let alone other historical events.
Ahadith are the body of contradictions and, we want some mullah to interpret the Quran which has no contradictions with ahadith?

 

[Eigoroll]

Citizen X

What you keep calling my mental gymnastic is either your inability to connect simple dots or construct some better arguments.

The Ahadeeth you mentioned as problematic would not be problematic if you would have bothered to read the work of Hadith scholars about the discussion of these Ahadeeth, have understood the social relationships, and so on. For example, with your very confined understanding of the Hadith about the age of Aisha (R.A), I can see that it would require me to give you a small lecture on the social sense of adulthood and its metamorphosis in Modern western values and the cause behind it. Also, you seem unaware of the traditions of warfare in the Prophet's time, so you sped past the point of Hadith about the killing of women and children in a war theater. Again I can give you some details on the historical realities, but that would be a red herring in this discussion and a waste of my time on a person who is hell-bent on winning the argument by hook or crook.
If you had only understood the meaning of the Aya I mentioned, you would have realized that Aya is talking about the life of the Prophet among his people before the prophethood. Where do you find this life? In Ahadeeth. Quran says that the Prophet has the best character. Where do you see this character? In Ahadeeth.

You are keep attributing to me that I said or implied that Hadith is as unquestionable as the Quran. This is intellectual dishonesty. When you raised the question of the presence of doubtful Ahadeeth in Hadeeth's books, I agreed with you and reminded you that Hadith scholars keep scrutinizing the Hadith. Why? It is not Quran, It can have mistakes but it is an essential source of our Deen as it shows our Prophet's practical application of the Deen.


Furthermore, your understanding of my argument about the Hadith of blasphemy is again below basic. Those people in Sialkot were wrong because who was there to determine that the person had committed the blasphemy? The Prophet (PBUH) was not among them who could decide whether the action was right or wrong. There are punishments mentioned in Quran for different crimes. But the Quran is quiet about who would administer those punishments. If an individual or a mob starts implementing those Quranic punishments without any formal proceeding, we would certainly reject that. It doesn't take a genius to understand that Quranic punishments need to be deliberate through a due process of law. But does Quran specifically say that? No. See, this was a dot you could have connected, but you chose not to.

This is just the tip of the iceberg to show how foolish your whole stance has been throughout.

knowledge88

Altering the meanings of the Quran is undoubtedly blasphemy but accusing someone without any proof or proper understanding makes you part of the Sialkot mob. They didn't have an online forum to display their ignorance, but you do.

I respect Dr. Shabbir in many regards but disagree with this argument. Also, if you have given a further listening, he sounded like only one step behind from shying away from the Quranic punishments as well. That has been the problem of these West bond scholars lately.

As for the blasphemy punishment, if you challenge all the Ahadeeth on this issue, people who want to punish a blasphemer would justify their actions through this Aya:

The punishment of those who run around and spread mischief about Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” Qur’an 5:33-34

This Aya flips your argument on its head that the Hadith and Quran are contradictory on the issue of blasphemy. I hope that lady had asked Dr. Shabbir about the Aya of the Quran allowing men to beat their wives under certain circumstances. And you will see how quickly he would have run towards Sunnah to explain the Aya in the light of the Prophet's life. I have seen these double standards many times.

 

[Citizen X]

Citizen X

What you keep calling my mental gymnastic is either your inability to connect simple dots or construct some better arguments.

The Ahadeeth you mentioned as problematic would not be problematic if you would have bothered to read the work of Hadith scholars about the discussion of these Ahadeeth, have understood the social relationships, and so on. For example, with your very confined understanding of the Hadith about the age of Aisha (R.A), I can see that it would require me to give you a small lecture on the social sense of adulthood and its metamorphosis in Modern western values and the cause behind it. Also, you seem unaware of the traditions of warfare in the Prophet's time, so you sped past the point of Hadith about the killing of women and children in a war theater. Again I can give you some details on the historical realities, but that would be a red herring in this discussion and a waste of my time on a person who is hell-bent on winning the argument by hook or crook.
If you had only understood the meaning of the Aya I mentioned, you would have realized that Aya is talking about the life of the Prophet among his people before the prophethood. Where do you find this life? In Ahadeeth. Quran says that the Prophet has the best character. Where do you see this character? In Ahadeeth.

You are attributing to me that I said or implied that Hadith is as unquestionable as the Quran is intellectual dishonesty. When you raised the question of the presence of doubtful Ahadeeth in Hadeeth's books, I agreed with you and reminded you that Hadith scholars keep scrutinizing the Hadith. Why? It is not Quran, but it is an essential source of our Deen.


Furthermore, your understanding of my argument about the Hadith of blasphemy is again below basic. Those people in Sialkot were wrong because who was there to determine that the person had committed the blasphemy? The Prophet (PBUH) was not among them who could decide whether the action was right or wrong. There are punishments mentioned in Quran for different crimes. But the Quran is quiet about who would administer those punishments. If an individual or a mob starts implementing those Quranic punishments without any formal proceeding, we would certainly reject that. It doesn't take a genius to understand that Quranic punishments need to be deliberate through a due process of law. But does Quran specifically say that? No. See, this was a dot you could have connected, but you chose not to.

This is just the tip of the iceberg to show how foolish your whole stance has been throughout.

Knowledge

Altering the meanings of the Quran is undoubtedly blasphemy but accusing someone without any proof or proper understanding makes you part of the Sialkot mob. They didn't have an online forum to display their ignorance, but you do.

I respect Dr. Shabbir in many regards but disagree with this argument. Also, if you have given a further listening, he sounded like only one step behind from shying away from the punishments in the Quran. That has been the problem of these West bond scholars lately.

As for the blasphemy punishment, if you challenge all the Ahadeeth on this issue, people who want to punish a blasphemer would justify their actions through this Aya:

The punishment of those who run around and spread mischief about Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” Qur’an 5:33-34

This Aya flips your argument on its head that the Hadith and Quran are contradictory on the issue of blasphemy. I hope that lady had asked Dr. Shabbir about the Aya of the Quran allowing men to beat their wives under certain circumstances. And you will see how quickly he would have run towards Sunnah to explain the Aya in the light of the Prophet's life. I have seen these double standards many times.

^^^^ Like I said nothing but mental gymnastics, it's not an ability to provide a better argument or connect simple dots but rather long drawn out meandering arguments in a vain attempt to justify hadiths. And these for some of the least arguments. I dread to think if some of the real ridiculous ones were presented, then what would happen!

If you had only understood the meaning of the Aya I mentioned, you would have realized that Aya is talking about the life of the Prophet among his people before the prophethood. Where do you find this life? In Ahadeeth. Quran says that the Prophet has the best character. Where do you see this character? In Ahadeeth.

And if you would have actually bothered to read my posts you wouldn't have to go through this trouble.

The biggest problem is what people consider hadith to be i.e a source of deen. When there is absolutely no deen in it. Hadith is nothing but a historical record and biographical account of the Prophet's life as seen and told by 1000s of people, which can be right or can be wrong since it is neither ahlam or wahi.

^^^^ I've never discouraged anyone from reading hadith, in fact I encourage it as it is a great source of knowledge about early Islamic history and seerah of the Prophet. But read it as history and there will be no confusion and your knowledge will increase but if you take it as a source of deen then their will be great confusion and mischief.

Those people in Sialkot were wrong because who was there to determine that the person had committed the blasphemy? The Prophet (PBUH) was not among them who could decide whether the action was right or wrong.

Why? They were just following hadith and in no hadith does it say Prophet had to be present or anything of that sort.

If an individual or a mob starts implementing those Quranic punishments without any formal proceeding, we would certainly reject that.

So you are going against hadith.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that Quranic punishments need to be deliberate through a due process of law.

Since the details of the Quran are in the hadith and there is no such mention about any such "due process of law" in any hadith once again you are going against the hadith and the dot that really needs to be connected is if you go against hadith you are in turn going against the Quran, since after all hadith is the key to the Quran and without it we would not fully understand it.

Problem is simple ( and one you clearly cannot see or like most close your eyes on purpose ) if you try to follow the hadith, you go against the Quran. If you try to follow the Quran you go against the hadith, in no scenario can you follow the Quran and the hadith.

The very first collector of hadith warned about this. Imam Malik, if you start taking your deen from the hadith, it will snatch it right out of your hands.

As for the rest of your "arguments" since they are directed at knowledge88 bhai I will let him handle it, I'm sure he's going to have a field day over it.

Once again read actual hadith before you come here and defend them blindly just because you think you're suppose to.

 

[Eigoroll]

Like I said nothing but mental gymnastics, it's not an ability to provide a better argument or connect simple dots but rather long drawn out meandering arguments in a vain attempt to justify hadiths. And these for some of the least arguments. I dread to think if some of the real ridiculous ones were presented, then what would happen!

Yes, present no resonable arugument but call it mental gymnastics because it's beyond your mental capacity and reasoning ability.

And if you would have actually bothered to read my posts you wouldn't have to go through this trouble.

I read it and waisted my few seconds. I wish I had listened to my intuition knowing that it would be nothing but another hot air nonsense. Yet I still took time to make it clear for you, but it didn't work.

I've never discouraged anyone from reading hadith, in fact I encourage it as it is a great source of knowledge about early Islamic history and seerah of the Prophet. But read it as history and there will be no confusion and your knowledge will increase but if you take it as a source of deen then their will be great confusion and mischief.

Confusion for those who don't have the ability to process multi layer information. Their ignorance and low IQ is not the problem for the rest of the world.

Why? They were just following hadith and in no hadith does it say Prophet had to be present or anything of that sort.

I mean this comment is so stupid, I felt sorry that I wasted my time in trying to make an attempt to make you understand that.

So you are going against hadith.

God!!! which Hadith am I going against?!!!!!

Since the details of the Quran are in the hadith and there is no such mention about any such "due process of law" in any hadith once again you are going against the hadith and the dot that really needs to be connected is if you go against hadith you are in turn going against the Quran, since after all hadith is the key to the Quran and without it we would not fully understand it.

After reading all this garbage, I come to realize that you are some top tier dump ass. I didn't even remotely said what you just attributed to me. Man go get some critical thinking classes. This may solve problem for you.

 

[Eigoroll]

Once again read actual hadith before you come here and defend them blindly just because you think you're suppose to.

Yeas, I would suggest that next time don't mention reading Bukhari from cover to cover with these ideas of yours. It's not a good look for you when someone listens to your lack of depth on the understanding of Hadith.

 

[Citizen X]

Yes, present no resonable arugument but call it mental gymnastics because it's beyond your mental capacity and reasoning ability.

I read it and waisted my few seconds. I wish I had listened to my intuition knowing that it would be nothing but another hot air nonsense. Yet I still took time to make it clear for you, but it didn't work.

Confusion for those who don't have the ability to process multi layer information. Their ignorance and low IQ is not the problem for the rest of the world.

I mean this comment is so stupid, I felt sorry that I wasted my time in trying to make an attempt to make you understand that.

God!!! which Hadith am I going against?!!!!!

After reading all this garbage, I come to realize that you are some top tier dump ass. I didn't even remotely said what you just attributed to me. Man go get some critical thinking classes. This may solve problem for you.

Classic sign of resorting to ad hominem attacks and insults when a person has no logical arguments left. Would have been better if you would said I disagree with you and for now do not wish to carry on this discussion and lets end with that in a impeccable manner.

Still I implore you to go read Sahih Bhukari cover to cover, so at least in future you are at the very least familiar with the subject matter you are so aggressively defending.

What would you advise a non Muslim or atheist who wants to debate the Quran with you. That go at the very least read the Quran completely before you debate it. Right?

Most of all, don't let people give you your opinion, don't just believe what you are being told, question everything

"Do not follow anyone blindly in those matters of which you have no knowledge, surely the use of your ears and eyes and heart - all of these, shall be questioned on the Day of Judgement."
The Holy Quran, 17:36

 

[Citizen X]

Yeas, I would suggest that next time don't mention reading Bukhari from cover to cover with these ideas of yours. It's not a good look for you when someone listens to your lack of depth on the understanding of Hadith.

What would you advise a non Muslim or atheist who wants to debate the Quran with you. That go at the very least read the Quran completely before you debate it. Right?

Better to just defend something blindly without even knowing it right?

 

[Eigoroll]

Classic sign of resorting to ad hominem attacks and insults when a person has no logical arguments left. Would have been better if you would said I disagree with you and for now do not wish to carry on this discussion and lets end with that in a impeccable manner.

Saying a person calling it mental gymnastic to avoid tackling the questions. Got it. I would engage with you every time you set out to to be critical towards Hadeeth.

What would you advise a non Muslim or atheist who wants to debate the Quran with you. That go at the very least read the Quran completely before you debate it. Right?

But Hadith is not Quran right. You haven't read all the Hadith either. Right? And I wouldn't tell the Athiest to read all the Hadith before we can discuss the topic of Hadeeth

Do not follow anyone blindly in those matters of which you have no knowledge, surely the use of your ears and eyes and heart - all of these, shall be questioned on the Day of Judgement."

Absolutely. A fitting advice for a person who claim to have knowledge of Hadith without actually having it and follow what he wants to believe blindly.

Still I implore you to go read Sahih Bhukari cover to cover, so at least in future you are at the very least familiar with the subject matter you are so aggressively defending.

Is the topic Bukhari or the concept of Hadeeth? Which you haven't read fully. I think you didn't know what we were talking about all this long.

Most of all, don't let people give you your opinion, don't just believe what you are being told, question everything

And that's what I am doing here. Didn't you notice. I suggest that you should do the same when some Mufti of your liking tell you something.

 

[Citizen X]

Saying a person calling it mental gymnastic to avoid tackling the questions. Got it. I would engage with you every time you set out to to be critical towards Hadeeth.

But Hadith is not Quran right. You haven't read all the Hadith either. Right? And I wouldn't tell the Athiest to read all the Hadith before we can discuss the topic of Hadeeth

Absolutely. A fitting advice for a person who claim to have knowledge of Hadith without actually having it and follow what he wants to believe blindly.

Is the topic Bukhari or the concept of Hadeeth? Which you haven't read fully. I think you didn't know what we were talking about all this long.


And that's what I am doing here. Didn't you notice. I suggest that you should do the same when some Mufti of your liking tell you something.

^^^^ Last word, you can has it. ?

 

[Mughal1]

It is not as simple.
You are giving logic. How silly is that.
Think Mr. Mughal think. Religion is not a country people choose and then migrate. People don't choose a religion. Religion chooses them.
People are brain washed in whatever religion they are born. This is the reason over 95% of the people don't change their religion. Even by the demise of prophet Muhammad pbuh, majority of the people of Madina were still not Muslim. Even during the time of Hazrat Umer majority of the people in Medina and Mecca were non Muslim.
Tell me one thing,
If I bring 100 top scientists from NASA and those who have won Nobel prize in science. And those who have the highest IQ. And you present your version of Deen of Islam which you have HERE, tell me how many will convert ?
So stop giving logic for a religion.
If you were born in a practicing Christian family , your link of HERE would have been guiding towards a Bible.
Now watch this to understand my ? if these kids were born in Sweden they would have been reciting Bible.

If this child was born in Pakistan, he would have been reciting Quran.

azeezam knowledge sb, aap ki baat drust hai keh insaanu ne apni apni parties banayee hui hen aur her party ya group ke log aik doosre ko control kerne ki poori poori koshish kerte hen magar ye groups un ko poori tarah se kabhi bhi control nahin ker sakte aur taareekh yahee bataati hai. laikin asal masla ye hai keh kisi ko maloom hi nahin hai bunyaadi tor per drust baat kia hai ya us ko maloom hi kaise kiya jaaye. yaad rakhen ye baat insaanu ke bas main hai hi nahin keh woh drust baat ko jaan boojh ker nazar andaaz ker den keh woh insaanu ko chubti rehti hai. insaan apni man maani kerte hen jis ki wajah se un main hatdharmi aa jaati hai jis ki wajah se woh asal ya bunyaadi ya drust baat ko jaanane se khud ko mehroom ker lete hen. lihaaza woh apne apne zohm main to khud ko drust hi samajhte hen apne apne unjaan pan ya jahaalat ki wajah se. jaisa keh insaanu ke khudaaye barhaq ke baare main tarah tarah ke sakht tareen ghalat tasawuraat hen.

doosra problem ye bhi hai keh jin logoon ne deegar logoon ko khudaa ka asal paighaam pohnchaana tha woh khud hi is maamle main confusion ka shikaar ho ker reh ge hen. yahee wajah hai in logoon ke paas aaj koi aik bhi drust quraani tafseer sire se mojood hi nahin hai. ab jin ko khud woh baaten maloom hi nahin hen jo unhune doosrun ko bataani thin theek tarah se to woh us paighaam ko kaise aage pohnchaayen ge? lihaaza is baat ne uljhanu ko aur shadeed ker diya hai. warna deene islam to aik inqalaabi mission tha insaani maashre ko jannati banaane ke liye aik doore ki madad se na keh pooja paat jo logoon ne sadiyun se is ko banaa liya huwa hai.

kia insaani maashra pooja paat se kabhi bhi drust ho sakta hai? her giz nahin. is ke liye to tehreek ki zaroorat hai aaj bhi aur kal bhi yahaan tak keh aisa maashra wajood main aa jaaye is tehreek ki madad se. phir jab aisa maashra wajood main aa bhi jaaye to us ko qaaim bhi to logoon ne hi mil jul ker rakhna hai. to agar aise log hi peda nahin hun ge to maashra kia khaak wajood main aaye ga aur qaaim rakha jaaye ga?

regards and all the best.

 

[Citizen X]

azeezam knowledge sb, aap ki baat drust hai keh insaanu ne apni apni parties banayee hui hen aur her party ya group ke log aik doosre ko control kerne ki poori poori koshish kerte hen magar ye groups un ko poori tarah se kabhi bhi control nahin ker sakte aur taareekh yahee bataati hai. laikin asal masla ye hai keh kisi ko maloom hi nahin hai bunyaadi tor per drust baat kia hai ya us ko maloom hi kaise kiya jaaye. yaad rakhen ye baat insaanu ke bas main hai hi nahin keh woh drust baat ko jaan boojh ker nazar andaaz ker den keh woh insaanu ko chubti rehti hai. insaan apni man maani kerte hen jis ki wajah se un main hatdharmi aa jaati hai jis ki wajah se woh asal ya bunyaadi ya drust baat ko jaanane se khud ko mehroom ker lete hen. lihaaza woh apne apne zohm main to khud ko drust hi samajhte hen apne apne unjaan pan ya jahaalat ki wajah se. jaisa keh insaanu ke khudaaye barhaq ke baare main tarah tarah ke sakht tareen ghalat tasawuraat hen.

doosra problem ye bhi hai keh jin logoon ne deegar logoon ko khudaa ka asal paighaam pohnchaana tha woh khud hi is maamle main confusion ka shikaar ho ker reh ge hen. yahee wajah hai in logoon ke paas aaj koi aik bhi drust quraani tafseer sire se mojood hi nahin hai. ab jin ko khud woh baaten maloom hi nahin hen jo unhune doosrun ko bataani thin theek tarah se to woh us paighaam ko kaise aage pohnchaayen ge? lihaaza is baat ne uljhanu ko aur shadeed ker diya hai. warna deene islam to aik inqalaabi mission tha insaani maashre ko jannati banaane ke liye aik doore ki madad se na keh pooja paat jo logoon ne sadiyun se is ko banaa liya huwa hai.

kia insaani maashra pooja paat se kabhi bhi drust ho sakta hai? her giz nahin. is ke liye to tehreek ki zaroorat hai aaj bhi aur kal bhi yahaan tak keh aisa maashra wajood main aa jaaye is tehreek ki madad se. phir jab aisa maashra wajood main aa bhi jaaye to us ko qaaim bhi to logoon ne hi mil jul ker rakhna hai. to agar aise log hi peda nahin hun ge to maashra kia khaak wajood main aaye ga aur qaaim rakha jaaye ga?

regards and all the best.

? ? ? ? Lo G issi cheeze ki kami thi, aaja thu bhi apna luch tal le