Pilot Juan Browne 'blancolirio' analyse what probably happened at PK 8303

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Ah yes that picture makes a lot of sense, looks like pilot error through and through. Seems like they made the rookiest mistakes ever, they forgot to extend the landing gear, and scrapped the engines which damaged them and eventually stopped working.

The landing gear is working fine because the later CCTV video shows the plane in a glide slope with the gear extended.

Yes will have to wait to hear from the FDR and CVR, what they have to say, that how can such an experience crew forget to extend gear?!?! Its SOP to flow a landing checklist. And 3 greens is mentioned on it.
 

pcdoc24x7

Minister (2k+ posts)
This was a pilot error ... no doubt in my mind. This idiot should have completed the first crash/belly landing which he aborted after touching the ground causing massive damage to both engines which failed later when he attempted the second crash landing. May Allah give jannah to all those who lost their lives in this tragic incident. Heads should turn in PIA and all incompetent staff who has been hired without merit be sacked.
 

pcdoc24x7

Minister (2k+ posts)
I agree however if you hear the first conversation between the pilot and control tower, the ding ding ding sound was there which indicated landing gear failure so at that time, when the pilot was attempting the first crash landing, the landing gear wasn't working. Maybe when the belly hit the ground, it may have caused the landing gear to be released but the same action caused the damage to the engines which later failed. IMHO once the pilot initiated the crash landing the first time and the plane's belly and engines had hit the runway, he should have continued with the crash landing. And we have seen many times, a lot more survivors sometimes even all the passengers if the engine fire can be extinguished right away without reaching the fuel tanks.

Ah yes that picture makes a lot of sense, looks like pilot error through and through. Seems like they made the rookiest mistakes ever, they forgot to extend the landing gear, and scrapped the engines which damaged them and eventually stopped working.

The landing gear is working fine because the later CCTV video shows the plane in a glide slope with the gear extended.

Yes will have to wait to hear from the FDR and CVR, what they have to say, that how can such an experience crew forget to extend gear?!?! Its SOP to flow a landing checklist. And 3 greens is mentioned on it.
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I agree however if you hear the first conversation between the pilot and control tower, the ding ding ding sound was there which indicated landing gear failure so at that time, when the pilot was attempting the first crash landing, the landing gear wasn't working. Maybe when the belly hit the ground, it may have caused the landing gear to be released but the same action caused the damage to the engines which later failed. IMHO once the pilot initiated the crash landing the first time and the plane's belly and engines had hit the runway, he should have continued with the crash landing. And we have seen many times, a lot more survivors sometimes even all the passengers if the engine fire can be extinguished right away without reaching the fuel tanks.
I know a thing or two flying about commercial jets because I flown 1000s of hours in realistic flight simulators. Most Boeing 777 but also some Airbus 300 series. The ding ding ding is not an alarm to tell about landing gear failure, the plane detects its about to land and when a minimum safety threshold is reached and it sees the landing gear has still not extended it will then give a warning i.e you are about to land and you have not extended the gear. For seeing gear has been extended and locked into position there are 3 lights on the panel, when red it means gear is either not lowered or has lowered but locked into position.

To me it looks like one of those really stupid mistakes that the pilots actually forgot to extend the landing gear and only when they scrubbed both engines on the tarmac they realized wheels weren't down and instantly initiated a go around. I'm thinking the engines worked for sometime but gave up mid air as the ATC has cleared them to 3000ft but they were struggling and then requested they stay on 2000ft and somewhere while they were almost on final leg of the runway the engines gave up.

The landing gear was working fine as we can see on the CCTV footage the plane in a glide slope with landing gear extended.

I know everybody must be thinking how can a pilot forget to put the wheels down, thats such a basic thing and even a new pilot cannot make that mistake, but believe it or not such things have happened. A commerical jet crashed while it was on holding pattern at a busy airport simply because it ran out of fuel. If I remember correctly they got some kind of alarm in the cockpit and the crew became so intensely focused on looking into that and solving it that they totally ignored all other waning and kept flying until the plane ran out of fuel.

A hostile cockpit atmosphere ( something which Pakistani pilots are famous for and which also resulted in the airblue crash in Isb ) and then getting tunnel vision can result is such basic failures.
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Could you kindly elaborate a bit on this point please? I'll be grateful.
Hostile cockpit is an aviation term in which the crew instead of working as a team and sharing the workload the senior Captain acts like Mr know it all typical boss and bosses around the 1st officer ( co-pilot ) dismissing anything he says and only his word his law

This is an example of such behaviour


The Airblue crash in Islamabad was also the result of this

"The Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority (PCAA) issued the final report in November 2011. It covered the key events that lead to the crash.[16]

The aircraft took off at 02:52 UTC. During the initial climb, the Captain tested the knowledge of the First Officer, and used harsh words in snobbish tones while speaking to him. This was very contrary to Airblue's procedures. The lecture continued for about one hour, with only brief intervals. After the humiliating session, the First Officer remained mostly silent throughout the rest of the flight, likely from a loss of self esteem and confidence. Subsequently, the First Officer did not challenge the Captain over any of his errors or violations.[16]

While Flight 202 was descending to Islamabad, the Captain decided to change the instrument landing approach to a visual circling approach. The Captain checked the weather apprehensively, and asked the First Officer to feed unauthorized 04 waypoints in the FMS. The First Officer did not challenge the Captain for his incorrect actions (which may have been caused by the "lecturing session" earlier). "


Tunnel vision is when you become so focused on one thing you totally ignore everything else, like in the case of United flight 173

"While the decision to abort the landing was prudent, the accident occurred because the flight crew became so absorbed with diagnosing the problem that they failed to monitor their fuel state and calculate a time when they needed to return to land or risk fuel exhaustion "

 

Spartacus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I have noted here something which is really big difference .
Maybe you people need to watch the video again.

1. At video time 03:48 to 03:55
Which is around 14:25 --- ( The real time in Karachi ) which is also the CCTV time when you can see clearly when plane hit the ground/building ----- But they are showing abortated landing ----- Which is not the real case ----- This was the crash time and not the aborted landing -----

Crash time of the plane is 14:25:03 according to the CCTV and I made a video about it yesterday already ----

Anyone can guide me what is missing here ???

 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I have noted here something which is really big difference .
Maybe you people need to watch the video again.

1. At video time 03:48 to 03:55
Which is around 14:25 --- ( The real time in Karachi ) which is also the CCTV time when you can see clearly when plane hit the ground/building ----- But they are showing abortated landing ----- Which is not the real case ----- This was the crash time and not the aborted landing -----

Crash time of the plane is 14:25:03 according to the CCTV and I made a video about it yesterday already ----

Anyone can guide me what is missing here ???

The CCTV camera footage is from someone's personal camera fitted to their roof. The timestamp is not reliable as these systems are usually not hooked up online and auto correct time. So it really is an non issue.
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The ding ding ding is not an alarm to tell about landing gear failure, the plane detects its about to land and when a minimum safety threshold is reached and it sees the landing gear has still not extended it will then give a warning i.e you are about to land and you have not extended the gear. For seeing gear has been extended and locked into position there are 3 lights on the panel, when red it means gear is either not lowered or has lowered but locked into position.
Understood. It is like the tone we hear in cars nowadays when the driver seat belt is not worn and the car is moving.
To me it looks like one of those really stupid mistakes that the pilots actually forgot to extend the landing gear and only when they scrubbed both engines on the tarmac they realized wheels weren't down and instantly initiated a go around. I'm thinking the engines worked for sometime but gave up mid air as the ATC has cleared them to 3000ft but they were struggling and then requested they stay on 2000ft and somewhere while they were almost on final leg of the runway the engines gave up.
1- Now, if there is a warning bell specifically designed to let the pilot recheck on the landing gear before landing, it seems quite improbable that he forgot to do so after hearing the tone.

2- I think they have designed the feature after studying many crashes, where the pilots forget to extend the landing gear. Therefore in this airbus, it seems quite unusual if the pilot forgot it totally, in the presence of that bell warning.


The landing gear was working fine as we can see on the CCTV footage the plane in a glide slope with landing gear extended.
As far as I can understand, by watching this video, that if the landing gear fails to open automatically, then there is a manual method as well (see Op's video at 7:39)

Secondly, by hearing the conversation between the pilot and control tower @ 5:15, when the first attempt of landing was made, there is a "ding ding" sound, but when the pilot says we are going around, there is no ding ding sound in the background.

The theory of a hostile crew environment seems not to fit perfectly here. Since, it is nearly impossible that you descend down to the landing altitude, hitting the tarmac and you totally ignore that ding ding.

In the second stance of pilot communication, since there is no ding ding sound, it may mean that the avionic instrument failed to give him that warning sound, making him think that the landing gear has been lowered and locked correctly so he made an attempt to land, but quickly pulled up after realizing that the warning system failed as well as the landing gear. Therefore in the second stance of comm, there is no such sound.

Perhaps, after making the decision of going around, he managed to open the landing gear manually, but due to the damage done to both the engines, he could not keep up or there might be another instance of failure in the instruments (avionics) or the aeroframe (mechanical failures).


but believe it or not such things have happened. A commerical jet crashed while it was on holding pattern at a busy airport simply because it ran out of fuel.
I believe you that this had happened earlier in planes where there had been no such alarms for landing gear designed. However, in this Airbus, it leaves a room to doubt that theory.

With all the respect and acknowledgement to your knowledge and experience, I will beg you to reconsider the case with a point of view of avionics failure. Can it happen? has it happened in the past? is there a logical connection to such an event in purview of the communication in the OP's vid?
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
2- I think they have designed the feature after studying many crashes, where the pilots forget to extend the landing gear. Therefore in this airbus, it seems quite unusual if the pilot forgot it totally, in the presence of that bell warning.
No this doesn't happen regularly and there are SOPs designed so that such errors don't happen, below 10-7000ft the cockpit should become sterile and is known as a sterile cockpit meaning only things related to flying are done and spoken of between the crew, no chit chat etc etc and crews have checklists for everything, before push back checklist, before engine start up check list, before taxi checklist, before take off check list, after take off checklist, landing check list, after landing checklist One crew who is not flying calls out the check list and crew who is flying checks and responds, in this case it would be, Landing gear, crew flying would respond Check or 3 green, meaning his panel is showing 3 green lights meaning gear is down and locked.

And you would be surprised the amount of redundancy built into a modern aircraft specially commercial passenger jets. Thats why flying is so safe today.

Secondly, by hearing the conversation between the pilot and control tower @ 5:15, when the first attempt of landing was made, there is a "ding ding" sound, but when the pilot says we are going around, there is no ding ding sound in the background.
Capturing the warning on the recording was mere coincidence, its not a constant dinging, it dings three times and stops.

A hostile cockpit combined with tunnel vision could lead to making such a silly mistake
Perhaps, after making the decision of going around, he managed to open the landing gear manually, but due to the damage done to both the engines, he could not keep up or there might be another instance of failure in the instruments (avionics) or the aeroframe (mechanical failures).
Thats what I'm saying the landing gear was working fine, manual or automatic doesn't matter, he belly flopped the first time and realized gear wasn't down and did a go around and somewhere along the line lost both engines. If the crew was aware the landing gear is not down, he would have declared a Mayday earlier and alerted Tower control that he is coming down on his belly and fire and rescue would have rolled out to the side of the runway and be ready to deal with any fire or rescue operation.

As for the airframe, other than the damage to the engines it looks fine from the picture, and avionics seems to be working just fine as the cctv footage shows a perfectly the plane in a normal descending glide slope ( unfortunately just short of the runway ) if the avionics were not functioning this would not be really possible in such a controlled manner.

All of this is just a theory from the evidence available, once the FDR and CVR more will be known.
 

Kamboz

Senator (1k+ posts)
I know a thing or two flying about commercial jets because I flown 1000s of hours in realistic flight simulators. Most Boeing 777 but also some Airbus 300 series. The ding ding ding is not an alarm to tell about landing gear failure, the plane detects its about to land and when a minimum safety threshold is reached and it sees the landing gear has still not extended it will then give a warning i.e you are about to land and you have not extended the gear. For seeing gear has been extended and locked into position there are 3 lights on the panel, when red it means gear is either not lowered or has lowered but locked into position.

To me it looks like one of those really stupid mistakes that the pilots actually forgot to extend the landing gear and only when they scrubbed both engines on the tarmac they realized wheels weren't down and instantly initiated a go around. I'm thinking the engines worked for sometime but gave up mid air as the ATC has cleared them to 3000ft but they were struggling and then requested they stay on 2000ft and somewhere while they were almost on final leg of the runway the engines gave up.

The landing gear was working fine as we can see on the CCTV footage the plane in a glide slope with landing gear extended.

I know everybody must be thinking how can a pilot forget to put the wheels down, thats such a basic thing and even a new pilot cannot make that mistake, but believe it or not such things have happened. A commerical jet crashed while it was on holding pattern at a busy airport simply because it ran out of fuel. If I remember correctly they got some kind of alarm in the cockpit and the crew became so intensely focused on looking into that and solving it that they totally ignored all other waning and kept flying until the plane ran out of fuel.

A hostile cockpit atmosphere ( something which Pakistani pilots are famous for and which also resulted in the airblue crash in Isb ) and then getting tunnel vision can result is such basic failures.
I was aborad a virign atlantic airbus and about to land in london, about 50 feet from ground when the pilot realized it and pulled back up... our landing gear did not fully open.. we ended up landing without one side wheels... happened in 1997..we survivied to tell the tale.
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I was aborad a virign atlantic airbus and about to land in london, about 50 feet from ground when the pilot realized it and pulled back up... our landing gear did not fully open.. we ended up landing without one side wheels... happened in 1997..we survivied to tell the tale.
Man that must have been a harrowing experience!

This one perhaps?

 

jani1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ہر جگہ یہی کلچر۔۔ مدرسے میں قاری صاحب مار مار کے بھس نکالتے ہیں۔۔ سکولوں میں استاد جی۔۔اور جہازوں میں ایسے فرعون کپٹن۔۔پاکستانیوں کو اب بدلنا ہوگا۔۔۔

اور تمام تعلیمی اداروں ، سی اے اے، و پی آئی اے کو ایسے رویئے پر اساتذہ ،کپتانوں یا ٹرینروں کو ایک بار وارننگ تو دوسری بار نوکری سے برخواست کرنے کا قانون بنانا ہوگا۔۔

تب کہیں جاکر ہم انسانوں میں شمار ہونگے۔۔۔اور انسانوں جیسا جی سکیں گے۔۔​

Hostile cockpit is an aviation term in which the crew instead of working as a team and sharing the workload the senior Captain acts like Mr know it all typical boss and bosses around the 1st officer ( co-pilot ) dismissing anything he says and only his word his law

This is an example of such behaviour


The Airblue crash in Islamabad was also the result of this

"The Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority (PCAA) issued the final report in November 2011. It covered the key events that lead to the crash.[16]

The aircraft took off at 02:52 UTC. During the initial climb, the Captain tested the knowledge of the First Officer, and used harsh words in snobbish tones while speaking to him. This was very contrary to Airblue's procedures. The lecture continued for about one hour, with only brief intervals. After the humiliating session, the First Officer remained mostly silent throughout the rest of the flight, likely from a loss of self esteem and confidence. Subsequently, the First Officer did not challenge the Captain over any of his errors or violations.[16]

While Flight 202 was descending to Islamabad, the Captain decided to change the instrument landing approach to a visual circling approach. The Captain checked the weather apprehensively, and asked the First Officer to feed unauthorized 04 waypoints in the FMS. The First Officer did not challenge the Captain for his incorrect actions (which may have been caused by the "lecturing session" earlier). "


Tunnel vision is when you become so focused on one thing you totally ignore everything else, like in the case of United flight 173

"While the decision to abort the landing was prudent, the accident occurred because the flight crew became so absorbed with diagnosing the problem that they failed to monitor their fuel state and calculate a time when they needed to return to land or risk fuel exhaustion "

 
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