Nuclear Brinkmanship of Pakistan?

[Bret Hawk]

Not long ago when I heard a retired Lt. General of India in Dr Shahid Masoods program on Mere Mutabik stating that Pakistan do have declared there First Nuclear Strike policy against any aggression from any external force (Implicit Reference here is obviously tilting towards India) whos conventional warfare capability would be superior to Pakistans. Due to the high octane nature of Indo-Pak relations in the past six decades and so and especially in post 1998 Nuclear tests from these two nations this sort of policy by the Pakistan establishment is tantamount to the total lunacy and inviting the scale of destruction which a modern man can barely envision in these volatile circumstances. Anyhow thats my take on this issue so lets see whats the opinion of respectable members of this forum related to this First Strike policy of Pakistan. Can Pakistan afford to face the backlash of Indias nuclear arsenal by making this sort of a blunder of first nuclear strikes on the Indian territories and targets of strategic importance?



Note: Pakistans former military chief Pervaiz Musharraf in the past had also reiterated this senseless doctrine of Pakistani establishment after the conflicts of Kargil, when the then president of US Bill Clinton warned Pakistani establishment of pursuing the nuclear brinkmanship, and of course the infamous 2001-02 standoff of these neighbouring countries, which was triggered after the attacks on Indian Parliament.

 

[furry87]

Hi Bret hope ur doing good. I agree with you completely , nucs are not a weapon war but only a scare tactic. Its like insurance for when ur admitted to the hospital. So if india tries anything they know the cost of their aggression will be extremely high.

Nukes are also necessary because we cannot match indias capital spending on conventional weapons like migs and euro fighters and russian subs. We now have the satisfaction of knowing that it doesnt matter how many planes india buys we can send a few missiles on each air field and neutralize the threat from their 1000 of so state of the art planes that they are soon to purchase.
Apart from that we can rain short range missiles on their army camps or marching army if the need ever arises. We do not have the means of waging a stretches war and they do. They have more personnel ,more weapons , more ammunition ,more food more everything. In case of war they can hit us again and again and again till we finally give in ,but that is if they have the will. We can never be aggressors against them simply for this reason. We cannot capture india with our nucs but we can definitely blunt their attacks .
We can also bomb the crap out of their dams if the water crises reaches critical mass.

Every thing is and always has been in Indias favor ,we have a tiny country which can be destroyed completely with about 5-10 nukes ie we lack strategic dept. This is not a program of our own choosing ,we can hope to gain nothing positive from having nukes but they became a necessity when india started to chase nukes. This is probably the only thing keeping the US and India from invading us like they did in 65 and 71. It will take them literally a few hours to over run lahore ,isb and peshawar.

 

[GeoG]

Our military tried to avoid confronting Taliban / Jihadi groups until the very last moment because they considered these half million as their reserve force, fully trained in guerrilla warfare.

I will disagree with furys assertion that India will overrun Lahore and other border areas in hours. India may have five times bigger force but war is a never fought on number games. It may give you some strategic advantage but can result in a larger damage infliction.

If you see India Pakistan border, our vulnerability is Northern Punjab and lower Sindh area. In an unlikely scenario, if India gains some territory, Lahore, Sialkot will be the last points they would want to capture as this would bring in international community quickly not that they want to favor Pakistan but their apprehension that Nukes could be used. India would want to capture land in Northern Punjab and Sindh areas to sit on it until a favorable compromise for them.

On the contrary, if Pakistan manages to make inroads in Kashmir and Punjab, this would be drastic for India of whatever gains they could have made in Northern Punjab as Pakistan would have an ace in hand in comparison with Nehla in Indian hands.

A war with no permanent resolution will be detrimental for Indian economy. During Kargil episode it was not US or any other force but FDI pressure from world institutions that forced India to back off as International institutions cant invest in a country where war risk goes beyond certain point, determined by independent institutions.

Our Nukes are our security and safety net because we should never sign a no first use agreement as Zardari declared in an interview with Karan Thapar. This idiot only knows how to stash away money in hundreds of accounts but have no knowledge of statehood.

We should have our own policy to run our country the way we want to run it but should not be enemies of Taliban. Wipe off the double agents like Mehsods and no place for Al-Qaida in Pakistan.

 

[Pakistani1947]

I 100% agree with the point of view given by my respected members of this forum.

I am wandering why can't our politician think logically like ordinary Pakistanis like us.

Soon I got the answer if PM can make Dasti (Fake degree holder) his adviser then what can we expect from them.

All of these politicians are busy in increasing their wealth bu corruption and then how to save themselves from corruption charges. These corrupt leaders includes cheif Justice Iftekhar Chaudri, Zardari, Nawaz, Altaf, Bloor and Maulana Fazl ur Rehman.

 

[thepearl]

@ Furry87, GeoG, Pakistan1947 [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

I think Pakistan army kay Jawan (not generals) are best in the world. India have all good things but they dont have JAWANS.

Pakistan Zindabad...........................Aur jab baat watan ki aa jaye to phir Paksitani Awaan Sisa-pilaye diwaaar ban jatay hain.

 

[gazoomartian]

Not long ago when I heard a retired Lt. General of India in Dr Shahid Masoods program on Mere Mutabik stating that Pakistan do have declared there First Nuclear Strike policy against any aggression from any external force (Implicit Reference here is obviously tilting towards India) whos conventional warfare capability would be superior to Pakistans. Due to the high octane nature of Indo-Pak relations in the past six decades and so and especially in post 1998 Nuclear tests from these two nations this sort of policy by the Pakistan establishment is tantamount to the total lunacy and inviting the scale of destruction which a modern man can barely envision in these volatile circumstances. Anyhow thats my take on this issue so lets see whats the opinion of respectable members of this forum related to this First Strike policy of Pakistan. Can Pakistan afford to face the backlash of Indias nuclear arsenal by making this sort of a blunder of first nuclear strikes on the Indian territories and targets of strategic importance?



Note: Pakistans former military chief Pervaiz Musharraf in the past had also reiterated this senseless doctrine of Pakistani establishment after the conflicts of Kargil, when the then president of US Bill Clinton warned Pakistani establishment of pursuing the nuclear brinkmanship, and of course the infamous 2001-02 standoff of these neighbouring countries, which was triggered after the attacks on Indian Parliament.

Bret saheb salam, this must be your weekend trip to this forum LOL

There is no such thing as 'second' chance when it comes to nukes. it's either you do it first or let them wipe you out first. I rather see the enemy receive the wrath of our nuke first.

You are discussing the 'first attack' and the US on behalf of India is trying to contain our nukes and haul them away or neutralize them. So under the current situation your argument is not only unfair its somewhat based on wrong logic.

Nuke IS what has shut up India. I remember watching a clip back in 1975 or so. After the 1974 nuclear explosion, this India analyst said on TV about Pakistan: Now that we have nuke, Pakistan wouldn't dare talk about taking Kashmir'.

You would agree with me that Indian is showing pride and hinting nuking us in case of need, which amounts to first strike as needed.

After Pakistani nuclear explosion in 1998, the same analyst said on TV again: two countries should live peace and harmony. We were the same country, we should increase trade and tourism between the two.

Now do you see the Hindu mentality here? How the same man became a total bheegi billi few years later??

We must maintain the status of FIRST STRIKE to keep the enemy in check. This slogan alone has kept India going in circle and running to US for help. Did the US wait for Japan to develop nuke before nuking Japan? India is already nervous after hearing the news of US exit from Afghanistan.

Why is India extending the hand of compromise? Is it because they are nice guys? NOT. because now they are scared that Pakistan is superior in all respect when it comes to military from a brave soldier to the nuclear warhead. Gilani and Singh are meeting Bhutan. Why sudden love? Either they are scared now or preparing for an attack. 'Give sweet first then give the poison' is the part of the 4th generation warfare.

When it comes to mass killing and destruction, which I hope never happens, I rather destroy the enemy than destroy ourselves. I am 100% certain that you and all Pakistani will share this sentiment.

Thought I share my take

 

[Star Gazer]

We all understand that nukes are only a deterrant in the situation between Pakistan and india. Pakistan was forced into this position after the first indian nuclear explosions in 1976, I am not sure of the year. We had no choice but to pursue the course of action for our defence. Further more first use option is also a deterrant to an aggressor who is constantly trying to inflict wounds using any and every means, there has been no let up in the war hysteria by india, any little problem and the first thing their politicians and army generals do is threaten Pakistan with grave consequences, take note of the army ammassed by india on our eastern border in 2002 for over a year, then the threats by them after bombay incidence , then the most recent statements of their army chief. It is always important to have your own strategy and defend it and explain it to the world clearly without opology. If we try to follow the so called protocalls by other nations then they start to control us and they usually take a U-turn on those any time they feel right and we are left seething and raging over the 'unfairness.' We have an important responsibility, Defence of Pakistan and it is to be done at every cost, we have paid such a heavy price for the technology and if we cow down now then who will succeed? what would we have achieved? If the nukes are so bad then why do the US and russia and other have them by the thousands? who are they afraid of? We on the other hand have many more enemies and very few friends. Lets ask indians to get rid of their nukes and go for peace and we can then think of revising our policy.

 

[furry87]

Our military tried to avoid confronting Taliban / Jihadi groups until the very last moment because they considered these half million as their reserve force, fully trained in guerrilla warfare.
Guerilla warfare only works in local areas and against agressors not while u are the attacking.
I will disagree with furys assertion that India will overrun Lahore and other border areas in hours. India may have five times bigger force but war is a never fought on number games. It may give you some strategic advantage but can result in a larger damage infliction.
Hmm how many planes do u think we have, how many subs do u think we have. Conventional war is a numbers game, other wise the 90,000 in dhaka would not have laid down their arms. Once our air force is blown to bits they will wreak havoc anywhere and and anytime. Try defending lahore with out an air force ,good luck.what ever army u have will be bombed to bits from the air and all u can do is watch.
If you see India Pakistan border, our vulnerability is Northern Punjab and lower Sindh area. In an unlikely scenario, if India gains some territory, Lahore, Sialkot will be the last points they would want to capture as this would bring in international community quickly not that they want to favor Pakistan but their apprehension that Nukes could be used. India would want to capture land in Northern Punjab and Sindh areas to sit on it until a favorable compromise for them.
What do u think the international community can do to india, once war is declared all is fair.Our vulnerability is that they more money to spend and more troops to spend them on.
On the contrary, if Pakistan manages to make inroads in Kashmir and Punjab, this would be drastic for India of whatever gains they could have made in Northern Punjab as Pakistan would have an ace in hand in comparison with Nehla in Indian hands.
Pakistan simply cannot hold it, we had stock piles of 21 days left during kargil forget holding india we could not hold a peak.
A war with no permanent resolution will be detrimental for Indian economy. During Kargil episode it was not US or any other force but FDI pressure from world institutions that forced India to back off as International institutions cant invest in a country where war risk goes beyond certain point, determined by independent institutions.
They did not back down anywhere during kargil , vajpai said uve crossed the border you back down , we will continue bombing you even while u are retreating.
Our Nukes are our security and safety net because we should never sign a no first use agreement as Zardari declared in an interview with Karan Thapar. This idiot only knows how to stash away money in hundreds of accounts but have no knowledge of statehood.
First use would be good, kashmiris dont like us they want their own country what are we fighting for ...they are a bunch of sheep who were sleeping during 47 , 65 ,99 ...you cannot help them unless they help themselves.
We should have our own policy to run our country the way we want to run it but should not be enemies of Taliban. Wipe off the double agents like Mehsods and no place for Al-Qaida in Pakistan.

Mehsud is not a double agent, he was fighting for his people and not india.


India cannot hold pakistan by force the people on this side are ready to die , i agree. Every one would instantly turn into a guerrilla but lets look at the real picture here, our 3 4 billion vs their 30 billion. Its about numbers and technology and strategy. Our politicians and generals do not have the stomach for a war mush proved that. Chest beating and chanting will get us no where ,they need to take care of our 4 5 air bases, once the air space is clear ,they can bomb our infantry line and tanks like crazy and simply walk in with out a problem. We do not have jets comparable to the latest russian tech , indians were also looking to buy some euro fighters. Nukes are our only defence, with which we can target their air bases and army bases. Nukes are not just meant for cities, each one is made with certain specific targets, u dont just try to maximize the range and load.

 

[GeoG]

Our military tried to avoid confronting Taliban / Jihadi groups until the very last moment because they considered these half million as their reserve force, fully trained in guerrilla warfare.

Guerilla warfare only works in local areas and against agressors not while u are the attacking.

There is a stronger possibility that India will be the aggressor hence the assumption is correct. The terrain from Shakar Garh till the last corner of Siachin makes this guerilla war ideal to keep enemy occupied and India cant have a clear win in this are even with the full might of its army.

I will disagree with furys assertion that India will overrun Lahore and other border areas in hours. India may have five times bigger force but war is a never fought on number games. It may give you some strategic advantage but can result in a larger damage infliction.

Hmm how many planes do u think we have, how many subs do u think we have. Conventional war is a numbers game, other wise the 90,000 in dhaka would not have laid down their arms. Once our air force is blown to bits they will wreak havoc anywhere and and anytime. Try defending lahore with out an air force ,good luck.what ever army u have will be bombed to bits from the air and all u can do is watch.

If conventional war is a number game only, India would have run over us in 1965 and 1971. We lost miserably in East due of internal defections not militarily. India will be facing same scenario in Kashmir this time round. What grievances Kashmiris may have against Pakistan, in war scenario we can be hundred percent sure of their loyalty, not only in Azad Kashmir but also in Indian Help part.

I am really surprised about the basic assumption of your whole response,
our air force will be out of service,
Fury Bhai, just to jog your memory, our missile technology is much superior to Indian air force capability.
Mig 27 and Mig 29 two state of the art Indian arsenal were blown within a few kilometers or our side of the border and guess what brought them down, no it was not tomahock it was our indigenous missile technology.

If you see India Pakistan border, our vulnerability is Northern Punjab and lower Sindh area. In an unlikely scenario, if India gains some territory, Lahore, Sialkot will be the last points they would want to capture as this would bring in international community quickly not that they want to favor Pakistan but their apprehension that Nukes could be used. India would want to capture land in Northern Punjab and Sindh areas to sit on it until a favorable compromise for them.

What do u think the international community can do to india, once war is declared all is fair.Our vulnerability is that they more money to spend and more troops to spend them on.

In a fight between two countries where OIL is not at stake, International community becomes blind, I agree and oil is not at stake here but Nukes are.
Nukes will not be the first choice weapon but definitely last resort to avoid our outright defeat and that will bring international community in very quickly.

On the contrary, if Pakistan manages to make inroads in Kashmir and Punjab, this would be drastic for India of whatever gains they could have made in Northern Punjab as Pakistan would have an ace in hand in comparison with Nehla in Indian hands.

Pakistan simply cannot hold it, we had stock piles of 21 days left during kargil forget holding india we could not hold a peak.

21 days stockpile is good enough with supply route open from China. Pakistan must invest in countering Indian sea supremacy with some missile technology. Keeping an aircraft carrier is an expensive option and we cant afford it but missile technology surely can be developed to balance the equilibrium.

A war with no permanent resolution will be detrimental for Indian economy. During Kargil episode it was not US or any other force but FDI pressure from world institutions that forced India to back off as International institutions cant invest in a country where war risk goes beyond certain point, determined by independent institutions.

They did not back down anywhere during kargil , vajpai said uve crossed the border you back down , we will continue bombing you even while u are retreating.

I agree they did not back down because our Bastard Bhagora General had ill planned it with no exit strategy. They were on the right and had no compulsion for mercy.

Our Nukes are our security and safety net because we should never sign a no first use agreement as Zardari declared in an interview with Karan Thapar. This idiot only knows how to stash away money in hundreds of accounts but have no knowledge of statehood.

First use would be good, kashmiris dont like us they want their own country what are we fighting for ...they are a bunch of sheep who were sleeping during 47 , 65 ,99 ...you cannot help them unless they help themselves.

I have no problem if Kashmir is operating as a province or semi autonomous country. I can agree with your comment of sheep for Pakistani current Kashmiri leadership but it is not fair to label the Indian Kashmiri leadership. They have sacrificed 100 thousand lives for it, so please be fair to them.

We should have our own policy to run our country the way we want to run it but should not be enemies of Taliban. Wipe off the double agents like Mehsods and no place for Al-Qaida in Pakistan.

Mehsud is not a double agent, he was fighting for his people and not india.

Our army would not take him out if he was not playing double game. I did not say Indian agent but there are other forces operating in the region who did not take him out despite our army had asked for it.


India cannot hold pakistan by force the people on this side are ready to die , i agree. Every one would instantly turn into a guerrilla but lets look at the real picture here, our 3 4 billion vs their 30 billion. Its about numbers and technology and strategy. Our politicians and generals do not have the stomach for a war mush proved that. Chest beating and chanting will get us no where ,they need to take care of our 4 5 air bases, once the air space is clear ,they can bomb our infantry line and tanks like crazy and simply walk in with out a problem. We do not have jets comparable to the latest russian tech , indians were also looking to buy some euro fighters. Nukes are our only defence, with which we can target their air bases and army bases. Nukes are not just meant for cities, each one is made with certain specific targets, u dont just try to maximize the range and load.

I agree with your point that Nukes are weapons for last resort and not first choice.
We may not be a cent per cent match for Indians but in a war you see numbers, terrain, strategic planning and above all Jasba, we compensate number game with other factors and I can assure you we not be walk in the park as you are assuming us to be.

 

[gazoomartian]

We all understand that nukes are only a deterrant in the situation between Pakistan and india. Pakistan was forced into this position after the first indian nuclear explosions in 1976, I am not sure of the year. We had no choice but to pursue the course of action for our defence. Further more first use option is also a deterrant to an aggressor who is constantly trying to inflict wounds using any and every means, there has been no let up in the war hysteria by india, any little problem and the first thing their politicians and army generals do is threaten Pakistan with grave consequences, take note of the army ammassed by india on our eastern border in 2002 for over a year, then the threats by them after bombay incidence , then the most recent statements of their army chief. It is always important to have your own strategy and defend it and explain it to the world clearly without opology. If we try to follow the so called protocalls by other nations then they start to control us and they usually take a U-turn on those any time they feel right and we are left seething and raging over the 'unfairness.' We have an important responsibility, Defence of Pakistan and it is to be done at every cost, we have paid such a heavy price for the technology and if we cow down now then who will succeed? what would we have achieved? If the nukes are so bad then why do the US and russia and other have them by the thousands? who are they afraid of? We on the other hand have many more enemies and very few friends. Lets ask indians to get rid of their nukes and go for peace and we can then think of revising our policy.

I agree. Our defense must be paramount and no two ways about it. we may be less in numbers but what we have, they don't. We have Allah(swt), Rasul (s.a.w.w), and malaika (AS) with us like in 1965. But we must fulfill the taqaza that is required for free devine help. Our soldiers have the jazba of ghazi/shaheed and they are brave. Hindu soldiers on the other hand have nothing to look forward to in hereafter, except the burning hell (which they refuse to see it coming). Like I said many times earlier that Hindus by nature are not brave because of their religion. They also suffer from inferiority complex due to the Muslim rule of over a 1000 years.

You can witness this by reading comments on this forum by Indians. Also, India, despite her huge advantage in numbers, they run to the UK, US for support. We have and worl wide support, seen this 1971

 

[furry87]

Our military tried to avoid confronting Taliban / Jihadi groups until the very last moment because they considered these half million as their reserve force, fully trained in guerrilla warfare.

Guerilla warfare only works in local areas and against agressors not while u are the attacking.

There is a stronger possibility that India will be the aggressor hence the assumption is correct. The terrain from Shakar Garh till the last corner of Siachin makes this guerilla war ideal to keep enemy occupied and India cant have a clear win in this are even with the full might of its army.

I will disagree with furys assertion that India will overrun Lahore and other border areas in hours. India may have five times bigger force but war is a never fought on number games. It may give you some strategic advantage but can result in a larger damage infliction.

Hmm how many planes do u think we have, how many subs do u think we have. Conventional war is a numbers game, other wise the 90,000 in dhaka would not have laid down their arms. Once our air force is blown to bits they will wreak havoc anywhere and and anytime. Try defending lahore with out an air force ,good luck.what ever army u have will be bombed to bits from the air and all u can do is watch.

If conventional war is a number game only, India would have run over us in 1965 and 1971. We lost miserably in East due of internal defections not militarily. India will be facing same scenario in Kashmir this time round. What grievances Kashmiris may have against Pakistan, in war scenario we can be hundred percent sure of their loyalty, not only in Azad Kashmir but also in Indian Help part.

I am really surprised about the basic assumption of your whole response,
our air force will be out of service,
Fury Bhai, just to jog your memory, our missile technology is much superior to Indian air force capability.
Mig 27 and Mig 29 two state of the art Indian arsenal were blown within a few kilometers or our side of the border and guess what brought them down, no it was not tomahock it was our indigenous missile technology.

If you see India Pakistan border, our vulnerability is Northern Punjab and lower Sindh area. In an unlikely scenario, if India gains some territory, Lahore, Sialkot will be the last points they would want to capture as this would bring in international community quickly not that they want to favor Pakistan but their apprehension that Nukes could be used. India would want to capture land in Northern Punjab and Sindh areas to sit on it until a favorable compromise for them.

What do u think the international community can do to india, once war is declared all is fair.Our vulnerability is that they more money to spend and more troops to spend them on.

In a fight between two countries where OIL is not at stake, International community becomes blind, I agree and oil is not at stake here but Nukes are.
Nukes will not be the first choice weapon but definitely last resort to avoid our outright defeat and that will bring international community in very quickly.

On the contrary, if Pakistan manages to make inroads in Kashmir and Punjab, this would be drastic for India of whatever gains they could have made in Northern Punjab as Pakistan would have an ace in hand in comparison with Nehla in Indian hands.

Pakistan simply cannot hold it, we had stock piles of 21 days left during kargil forget holding india we could not hold a peak.

21 days stockpile is good enough with supply route open from China. Pakistan must invest in countering Indian sea supremacy with some missile technology. Keeping an aircraft carrier is an expensive option and we cant afford it but missile technology surely can be developed to balance the equilibrium.

A war with no permanent resolution will be detrimental for Indian economy. During Kargil episode it was not US or any other force but FDI pressure from world institutions that forced India to back off as International institutions cant invest in a country where war risk goes beyond certain point, determined by independent institutions.

They did not back down anywhere during kargil , vajpai said uve crossed the border you back down , we will continue bombing you even while u are retreating.

I agree they did not back down because our ******* Bhagora General had ill planned it with no exit strategy. They were on the right and had no compulsion for mercy.

Our Nukes are our security and safety net because we should never sign a no first use agreement as Zardari declared in an interview with Karan Thapar. This idiot only knows how to stash away money in hundreds of accounts but have no knowledge of statehood.

First use would be good, kashmiris dont like us they want their own country what are we fighting for ...they are a bunch of sheep who were sleeping during 47 , 65 ,99 ...you cannot help them unless they help themselves.

I have no problem if Kashmir is operating as a province or semi autonomous country. I can agree with your comment of sheep for Pakistani current Kashmiri leadership but it is not fair to label the Indian Kashmiri leadership. They have sacrificed 100 thousand lives for it, so please be fair to them.

We should have our own policy to run our country the way we want to run it but should not be enemies of Taliban. Wipe off the double agents like Mehsods and no place for Al-Qaida in Pakistan.

Mehsud is not a double agent, he was fighting for his people and not india.

Our army would not take him out if he was not playing double game. I did not say Indian agent but there are other forces operating in the region who did not take him out despite our army had asked for it.


India cannot hold pakistan by force the people on this side are ready to die , i agree. Every one would instantly turn into a guerrilla but lets look at the real picture here, our 3 4 billion vs their 30 billion. Its about numbers and technology and strategy. Our politicians and generals do not have the stomach for a war mush proved that. Chest beating and chanting will get us no where ,they need to take care of our 4 5 air bases, once the air space is clear ,they can bomb our infantry line and tanks like crazy and simply walk in with out a problem. We do not have jets comparable to the latest russian tech , indians were also looking to buy some euro fighters. Nukes are our only defence, with which we can target their air bases and army bases. Nukes are not just meant for cities, each one is made with certain specific targets, u dont just try to maximize the range and load.

I agree with your point that Nukes are weapons for last resort and not first choice.
We may not be a cent per cent match for Indians but in a war you see numbers, terrain, strategic planning and above all Jasba, we compensate number game with other factors and I can assure you we not be walk in the park as you are assuming us to be.

Lol you talk as if the indians are babies, please correct ur record about 65 and 71...71 our air field was rendered useless and in 65 our air force kicked ass and that is why we were able to defend pakistan....the indian tanks and infantry captured parts of lahore with ease while the pakistanis died trying to capture any real ground in india. We Definitely wouldve lost had india kept up the pressure because we were runnig out of armour and money. You think we will last a month if india stops our trade through the sea?? we have like 10 ships at most all together. Our navy is no match for them , ps they are not just thing about buying migs , they also have the options to buy other planes from europe and US.
Pakistan does not have any missiles that can take out planes, any worth while anti air craft weapon they have is western just like india.

Forget the mehsud thing u know nothing about it, mehsud is a pakistani.

 

[Bret Hawk]

First of all hi and salamz to bros Furry, geo G and GM and secondly I have to admit that an interesting debate has been initiated here on this topic but surprisingly none of the participants have suggested to rule out the use of nukes in any of the armed conflict, if the situation arises in the future, with India. When I view the scant documentary reports of the past four military conflicts with Indians then, with the exception of 1948, Ive noticed only embarrassments and lack of in-depth strategic planning from the so called bigwigs of Pakistan army. Small minute details can later be discussed in greater detail at some other thread but Im fully convinced that the current elite army brass of Pakistan is incompetent, pathetic and are bunch of losers to the guts and therefore they have to be restrained their aggressive behaviours against any organised and powerful antagonists in this region which can literally destroy them in the matter of weeks if not months as evident with our conflicts with Indians in the past few decades.



Full provisional autonomy and devolution of power is the need of hour of modern day Pakistan so that the flagrant animosity among the federal units of Pakistan can be alleviated to a considerable level so that the economic and social prosperity can take its course in the futuristic canvas of Pakistan. By only raising the life standard of the populace of Pakistan we can bring the dreams of our ancestors to its fruition to make it stable strong and progressive in real terms. The current spurious theme of building a powerful security state by this corrupt establishment of Pakistan has proved nothing but a failure and disaster for the masses of Pakistan. Only by creating a welfare state we can hope to make Pakistan impregnable on almost all of its frontiers and when that stage could be reached then maybe our sworn nemesis around the world would definitely think twice to take on this powerful nation in economic and military terms. Thats the whole theme of this thread to force people to think out of the way of those who are literally paid to spread the fear of extinction of Pakistan and Islam through media outlets e.g. the famous mouth piece of GHQ and ISI Mr Zaid Zaman Hamid, whos alleged to be the close associate of the imposter prophet of Yusuf Ali (Kazab).in the near past and seems to have ulterior wicked motives of his senseless ranting.

 

[gazoomartian]

First of all hi and salamz to bros Furry, geo G and GM and secondly I have to admit that an interesting debate has been initiated here on this topic but surprisingly none of the participants have suggested to rule out the use of nukes in any of the armed conflict, if the situation arises in the future, with India. When I view the scant documentary reports of the past four military conflicts with Indians then, with the exception of 1948, Ive noticed only embarrassments and lack of in-depth strategic planning from the so called bigwigs of Pakistan army. Small minute details can later be discussed in greater detail at some other thread but Im fully convinced that the current elite army brass of Pakistan is incompetent, pathetic and are bunch of losers to the guts and therefore they have to be restrained their aggressive behaviours against any organised and powerful antagonists in this region which can literally destroy them in the matter of weeks if not months as evident with our conflicts with Indians in the past few decades.

Its better to be a mouthpiece of GHQ/IS than of the corrupt ruling elites such as Zardari, Gilani, Malik, etc, or the masters in the west. The corrupt ruling elites have provided the country nothing but pain.

Allah (swt) has given us Qur'an that has built-in 'jumhooriat'. Anything for human made by Allah is better than the British parliamentary system.

Zaid Hamid has already categorically declared the he is Muslim, believes in oneness of Allah(swt), finality of Muhammad (s.a.w.), therefore we do not have any reason and rights to keep latching on to anti-ZH phobia. ZH is need of the time when the country is sliding towards social anarchy because of corrupt, illiterate, and sold-out govt officials. Its a historical fact that whenever a Muslim nation has become target of the social destruction, regardless whether caused by whether internal or external elements, Allah (swt) prepares a son within that nation to correct the mass, and eventually destroy the society.

Its a fringe benefit of the Muslim ummah that collective punishment is no longer given by Allah, but instead He sends a corrector.

the nation really needs a revolution in shape of Khilafah and I do not see any alternatives. Failure to do that we will see nothing but extinction of a Islamic country, Christain forces taking over in shape of atheism, liquor consumption, riba (we already have) etc.

This is the time we need to support ZH for what he stands, what he believes, what he envisions, what he offers in educations etc. If you compare ZH side by side with any other leaders, you will be comparing orange (ZH) with apples (leaders) rotten to the core.

Speaking of Yousuf Ali, the maulvis at Almi Majlis e budnami-e-nabuwwat are scared because they have wrongly convicted by the Lahore Session court. the maulvis may also have engineered the eventual murder of the Yousuf, to obliterate a witness. Yousuf may have knows some secrets of the tahaffuz that would have been very damaging to the maulvis had Yousuf been given time to expose them. We are witness that only the tahaffuz is at the forefront in discrediting ZH, and no other Alims/maulanas. there was one crore rupees dealing was involved. ZH has court documents to prove it. Tahaffuz is scared of noose for murder and has been sold to RAW for propaganda against ZH because India/West will be a major looser if Pakistan people wake up from the valium of political sleep.

May Allah protect our Ummah, our mujahid Zaid Hamid, his ideology, his mission, his health and foremost his Iman. May Allah help him bring Khilafat-e-rashda in Pakistan. its high time that we prepare for unexpected assault from both sides of the border as predicted by Niamatullah shah Wali over 900 years ago.

Zaid Hamid Zindabad
Pakistan Paindabad
Pakistan, my pride, my nation, my motherland, leader of our Ummah

 

[babadeena]

Brother Bret Hawk,
What I can derive from your topic is that:
a) Pakistani should not have the "first option of using nuclear weapon;
b) Provincial autonomy or better governance;
c) incompetent Military personnel;
d) False prophethood claimer etc.
Please make your choice which one of the element you wish to discuss. But permit me to go around "Gujranawala". Hamid Nasir should not have assumed the role of "King Maker" in BB Government. Mahdi Bhatti should not have beaten the Police Office in his Drawing Room, thus making fun of the government institutions. Should I also write something about "Ghulam Dastgir" or Dadageer type company. From where the betterment of people will come.
Europe has been more safe because of nuclear arsenal, at least I think so. You can take the example of Post-Pre Brezehenv era, when USA and Russia were on SS-20 and Pershing/Cruise installation.
The Nuclear Arsenal is part and parcel of our "defence", no one should adventure against our country, nothing will be used.

 

[gazoomartian]

Brother Bret Hawk,
What I can derive from your topic is that:
a) Pakistani should not have the "first option of using nuclear weapon;
b) Provincial autonomy or better governance;
c) incompetent Military personnel;
d) False prophethood claimer etc.
Please make your choice which one of the element you wish to discuss. But permit me to go around "Gujranawala". Hamid Nasir should not have assumed the role of "King Maker" in BB Government. Mahdi Bhatti should not have beaten the Police Office in his Drawing Room, thus making fun of the government institutions. Should I also write something about "Ghulam Dastgir" or Dadageer type company. From where the betterment of people will come.
Europe has been more safe because of nuclear arsenal, at least I think so. You can take the example of Post-Pre Brezehenv era, when USA and Russia were on SS-20 and Pershing/Cruise installation.
The Nuclear Arsenal is part and parcel of our "defence", no one should adventure against our country, nothing will be used.

And it has been proven. India has calmed down in rhetoric after our nuke tests

 

[Ammar isb]

The ongoing visit of Prime Minister has taken the U.S-Pak ties to a new level, as both nations are on the same wavelength and committed to fight terror. The energy crisis poses a serious threat to economic and domestic stability in Pakistan. The urge for a civilian nuclear deal is justified but for that we need to ensure that our nuclear arsenal is safe and that no proliferation takes place.

 

[GeoG]

Lol you talk as if the indians are babies, please correct ur record about 65 and 71...71 our air field was rendered useless and in 65 our air force kicked ass and that is why we were able to defend pakistan....the indian tanks and infantry captured parts of lahore with ease while the pakistanis died trying to capture any real ground in india. We Definitely wouldve lost had india kept up the pressure because we were runnig out of armour and money. You think we will last a month if india stops our trade through the sea?? we have like 10 ships at most all together. Our navy is no match for them , ps they are not just thing about buying migs , they also have the options to buy other planes from europe and US.
Pakistan does not have any missiles that can take out planes, any worth while anti air craft weapon they have is western just like india.

Forget the mehsud thing u know nothing about it, mehsud is a pakistani.

Fury Bhai, don't know how you have concluded that I am assuming Indians to be babies as all I have stated in my response is that we are not a walk over for India, not just for weaponary but due to pollitical realities on ground. Khalistan movement may be dead now but it occured after 71 war. More than 80 thousand Kashmiris have given their lives for Kashmir cause, you have to take these realities into account in any war scenario.

I am extremely disappointed with your sentence that we would not last a month, if India blocks our sea trade routes, it would be fair me to say that you are considering us to be newborns against Indian Anokis. Why would it not turn into full scale war on day 3 on any such block from India. Do you not think if our air force would attach any ship blocking our sea route?

As you have been so firm in your response that it was not a missile which took out two Indian planes, please let us know what downed these two fighters. Our army is on record stating that it was Stinger based missile developed by Pakistan. You input would be welcome for our knowledge.

Re Mehsud, OK. we know nothing, do us a favor and let us know.