Miracles of the Qur'an

[Pakistani1947]

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped because they took the verse that saud extract of fluid to mean sperm.

Sperm is not fluid its a cell. Fluid refers to semen which is the same thing that the Greeks taught about.

This is the type of intellectual dishonesty you see from people who already have made their conclusikn and try to twist evidence to support their conclusion. This is not how a rational mind works.

They are taking words in the Quran twisting their meanings in order to conform them to modern discoveries in science such as sperm cell and female egg. There is no tafsir or translation of Quran that ever talk about that. Now after the fact when modern science discovered these things they are twisting the meaning to make it seem as though that is what Quran had being saying all along when it never did. Does that intellectual dishonesty not make you angry?

There is no cure for "main na manoo" (میں نہ مانوں) syndrome. Qur'an is not a book of science, rather it is a book of guidance. If Quran was a book of science, the verse would be using the actual terms used by biologists today. It is a book of guidance. It teaches human beings how to live like human beings. It teaches human beings about the purpose of creation. It's not a book that teaches about science or directly predicts science. At times, it describes the creation of Allah in such a way that doesn't contradict science. At times, the description of a certain creation is so vivid that it make you think that it is a book of science. But at the end of the day, it is just a book of guidance that is meant to fascinate you with Allah's creation in order to bring you closer to the truth.

 

[Vitamin_C]

forgive me if I do not agree with arguments that are based on intellectual dishonesty. You can believe what you want but I am not naive.

There is nothing in Quran which wasn't known to man already. You may try to twist meanings and words but people will always see through the dishonesty. And if you need to engage in intellectual dishonesty to justify believing in something then maybe you are believing in the wrong God.

Have you ever wondered why Quran only mentioned planets that are visible without telescope? Why no mention of Mercury, Uranus, any moons of Jupiter or Saturn, Neptune, Pluto? Did Arabs not have a word for moons and planets as well? Why no explicit mention of the shape of the planet when 99% of the world believes its flat?

How are we to imagine the wonders of creation with a book that has very limited imagination. An imagination that is only limited to what Arabs knew 1,400 years ago.

Why does the book says its not vague and very clear and then you quote scholars that claim its vague and try to interpret meanings that are not there? Isn't that a contradiction?

Main na manoo is syndrome pointed in the other direction its a complain religious people use to complain about people who wont believe in their non-sense. Same things Christians say to me when they try to convince me that Jesus died for my sin. Is it really a sydrome not to believe things based on bad evidence and bad arguments?

There is no cure for "main na manoo" (میں نہ مانوں) syndrome. Qur'an is not a book of science, rather it is a book of guidance. If Quran was a book of science, the verse would be using the actual terms used by biologists today. It is a book of guidance. It teaches human beings how to live like human beings. It teaches human beings about the purpose of creation. It's not a book that teaches about science or directly predicts science. At times, it describes the creation of Allah in such a way that doesn't contradict science. At times, the description of a certain creation is so vivid that it make you think that it is a book of science. But at the end of the day, it is just a book of guidance that is meant to fascinate you with Allah's creation in order to bring you closer to the truth.

 

[Pakistani1947]

Have you ever wondered why Quran only mentioned planets that are visible without telescope?

I think you start responding to my post without even reading it completely. Please read it again. Qur'an is not a book of Science it is a book of Guidance.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Thats a cop out. The article you shared claims 'miraculous science in Quran' which wasnt known 1400 years ago. Lets both agree thats not the case.

I agree that Quran is not a book of science. It has literary, poetic and historic value. Also spritual value for many people.

If you do some research on this science in Quran drama it started from a book written by a western doctor of Saud family. Then it was spread by charlatans like Dr Zakir Naik as fact. They manipulated verses and translation to make them seem like they are showing scientific knowledge 1400 years ago.

Some of the false claim include:
Quran had modern knowledge of embreyology
Quran says Earth is shaped like ostrich
Earth talks about big bang
Noor means borrowed light

If you dig a bit deeper check the tafsirs yourself you will uncover the true scale of fraud, dishonest, outright lies that these scholars are fooling people with and poisoning the minds of young Pakistanis.

What happenes to that Pakistan that had the brightest minds in whole Islamic world that out satellites in space in 1960s, had second fastest growing economy had best scientists who made nuclear bombs.

Qur'an is not a book of Science it is a book of Guidance.

 

[Mughal1]

Okay lets start with the point of information being available about altitude sickness 1400 years ago...

Premise 1: Do you agree with the Australian govt article that altitude sickness can occur at altitudes of 2000-3000m?

Premise 2: Do you agree that there are thousands of mountains and passes in Euro Asia which have altitudes of 2000-3000m (including 50 in Saudi Arabia mostly in Hejaz region)?

Premise 3: Do you agree that thousands of people ie travelers, soldiers, traders, pilgrims etc have been exposed to altitudes of 2000-3000m in those above mentioned mountains over thousands of years including the otziman?

Premise 4: Do you agree that from those thousands of people who have been exposed to altitudes of 2000m+ that atleast some of them have experienced symptoms of altitude sickness including hypoxia and lack of oxygen before 1400 years ago?

If those above mentioned premises are correct then this conclusion follows:

Conclusion: It is possible that people may have known about altitude sickness long before 1400 years by natural means such as directly experiencing it first hand or by accounts by people who have experienced it.

Which supports my argument that if you have a possibility of a natural explanation, you cannot assert a supernatural explanation without first ruling out the natural possibility.

Let me know which premise you do not agree with and why?

Dear vitamin c, my problem is not with your arguments but your stand point. In my view your approach is, God does not exist, if you think God exists then you prove it. Not only this but you are unwilling to learn things which you need to learn to arrive at right conclusion in this regard. We both know for sure we cannot prove nonexistence of God unless we learn things we need to learn to do so. This is why your stance is flawed so any arguments you make on that basis are invalid right from the start. This way we could never be sure about existence or nonexistence of God no matter how hard we try because it is impossible to prove negative in this regard.

This is why my approach is right because by using that way of tackling this issue we could come to proper conclusion beyond any reasonable doubt. All we need to do is learn about creation and revelation properly. Failing to learn about creation and revelation properly and yet claiming there is no God is cheating with oneself. This as I told you before in another thread has serious consequences for humanity as whole which you are ignoring. Link to other thread.

My approach is, we cannot know all by ourselves whether God exists or not so ruling out possibility of existence of God right from the start is a wrong approach to begin with because this way of doing things does not solve the problem posed by our existence. This is why anyone who puts forth any arguments on this basis is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. You can never prove this way of doing things right no matter how you go about it.

The right approach therefore to this issue is to accept possibility of existence of God and then study alleged creation and revelation of God properly ie the universe and the quran. The quran because all other scriptures are written by people themselves about God. You can see them in the link I have already provided if you have not done so already. Our whole argument is about how to decide this issue properly so we cannot take the road that goes nowhere or lands us in hell of our own making.

It is because our wrong approach leads us away from one another and if anything into terrible rivalries with each other and that is what is making this world a hellhole already before our very eyes. So unless you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that your way of tackling this issue works for solving this problems and it is for the good of humanity it is not worth consideration at all. As I said before many people claim the quran is full of mistakes but that is only because we are humans so we have difficulties in understanding things.

As for your idea that the quran should have predictions in it. It does but are we humans capable of seeing into the future so that we could see those predictions? No. This is why when things come to pass we come to know they were told already in the quran. This is due to lack of our knowledge and not due to not being in the quran. This is why the quran needs to be reinterpreted all the time so that we remain linked to the real world realities as we come to understand them properly.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

I think you start responding to my post without even reading it completely. Please read it again. Qur'an is not a book of Science it is a book of Guidance.

Dear pakistani 1947, the quran is scientific because it approaches things scientifically. This is why it is guidance from God. How could it guide us for living in this universe properly if it was not scientific? One who has revealed it knew what the universe is all about that is why he sent us guidance to tell us how to live in it properly so that we do not suffer either due to operation of this universe or due to doing wrongs to each other or not doing what we ought to do for each other to ensure well being of each other.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Although I view organized religions with suspicion, do not confuse that with my stance on God in general.

My position is not that God does not exist. It is that I do not know whether or not God exist and I am looking for evidence constantly to find the conclusion. I am willing all the time to change my position if I am presented with better evidence. Maybe universe is God? Maybe its an alien race that controls the simulation that we mistake as reality? The honest answer is we do not know...

Scientists do not know, and religious people do not know either. Believing in something is not the same as knowing something. People believe in many things that are not true. The most reliable way of knowing the truth is to start in a neutral position and see where the evidence leads us. Irrational people such as flat earthers, religious apologetic, young earth creationists, anti vaxxers, will start at the conclusion first and try to find evidence that fit their conclusion and ignoring all evidence that doesnt.

Dear vitamin c, my problem is not with your arguments but your stand point. In my view your approach is, God does not exist, if you think God exists then you prove it. Not only this but you are unwilling to learn things which you need to learn to arrive at right conclusion in this regard. We both know for sure we cannot prove nonexistence of God unless we learn things we need to learn to do so. This is why your stance is flawed so any arguments you make on that basis are invalid right from the start. This way we could never be sure about existence or nonexistence of God no matter how hard we try because it is impossible to prove negative in this regard.

This is why my approach is right because by using that way of tackling this issue we could come to proper conclusion beyond any reasonable doubt. All we need to do is learn about creation and revelation properly. Failing to learn about creation and revelation properly and yet claiming there is no God is cheating with oneself. This as I told you before in another thread has serious consequences for humanity as whole which you are ignoring. Link to other thread.

My approach is, we cannot know all by ourselves whether God exists or not so ruling out possibility of existence of God right from the start is a wrong approach to begin with because this way of doing things does not solve the problem posed by our existence. This is why anyone who puts forth any arguments on this basis is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. You can never prove this way of doing things right no matter how you go about it.

The right approach therefore to this issue is to accept possibility of existence of God and then study alleged creation and revelation of God properly ie the universe and the quran. The quran because all other scriptures are written by people themselves about God. You can see them in the link I have already provided if you have not done so already. Our whole argument is about how to decide this issue properly so we cannot take the road that goes nowhere or lands us in hell of our own making.

It is because our wrong approach leads us away from one another and if anything into terrible rivalries with each other and that is what is making this world a hellhole already before our very eyes. So unless you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that your way of tackling this issue works for solving this problems and it is for the good of humanity it is not worth consideration at all. As I said before many people claim the quran is full of mistakes but that is only because we are humans so we have difficulties in understanding things.

As for your idea that the quran should have predictions in it. It does but are we humans capable of seeing into the future so that we could see those predictions? No. This is why when things come to pass we come to know they were told already in the quran. This is due to lack of our knowledge and not due to not being in the quran. This is why the quran needs to be reinterpreted all the time so that we remain linked to the real world realities as we come to understand them properly.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Although I view organized religions with suspicion, do not confuse that with my stance on God in general.

My position is not that God does not exist. It is that I do not know whether or not God exist and I am looking for evidence constantly to find the conclusion. I am willing all the time to change my position if I am presented with better evidence. Maybe universe is God? Maybe its an alien race that controls the simulation that we mistake as reality? The honest answer is we do not know...

Scientists do not know, and religious people do not know either. Believing in something is not the same as knowing something. People believe in many things that are not true. The most reliable way of knowing the truth is to start in a neutral position and see where the evidence leads us. Irrational people such as flat earthers, religious apologetic, young earth creationists, anti vaxxers, will start at the conclusion first and try to find evidence that fit their conclusion and ignoring all evidence that doesnt.

Dear vitamin c, if you read my posts this is the main problem with your approach to the issue. You are looking for someone else to prove to you existence of God. In other words you want to be spoon fed if I may say so.

The right approach in this regard is, you seek the evidence and the explanation by making as much effort as you can according to best of your God given abilities. So long as you do that sincerely you don't need to fear anything because God is not a monster or a tyrant who will throw you in hell. God created human beings to make their humanly possible efforts.

We humans can only help each other as much as we can if we wish but ultimately its one's own sincere effort that counts. So long as you are doing that I have no problem with your approach. My problems are with your claims about the quran without knowing much about what it contains as its actual message. You take a statement of just anyone and start arguing over it as if it is the actual message of the quran, which it is not.

You seek evidence or proof but first learn what evidence or proof is. I have explained that in detail in my posts in the threads I have given links to. Evidence on one hand is a concrete object and on the other an explanation and the proof is the best possible explanation of the objects or abstracts or concepts etc etc.

In my view you are right in asking for evidence or explanation but you are not doing the work that needs to be done to see how that evidence is given to you and how it is supposed to work.

God has created the universe and he has sent his message for mankind to explain all things people needed to know for their best possible purposeful existence in this universe. This is why our job is to understand creation and revelation of God properly as a community. We are being very slow in doing that this is why ignorance still prevails among us human beings to a very high level and in very high numbers.

No one is stopping you from study of the creation of God. Likewise no one can stop you from getting the quranic text and studying it by yourself. All you need to do is try to educate yourself about things which are needed for making proper sense of message in the quran. Since many other people are also doing the same in the world so a lot of help is available out there so you should take advantage of all this.

God did not tell anyone to explain his message to you in all possible detail. All he said to his messengers was, deliver my message to mankind the way it is possible for you to deliver it. let people make the effort to accept or reject it and get the relevant outcomes for doing so.

Therefore stop waiting for someone to come to you with answers you are looking for and instead work on the project yourself. If along the way someone comes to you with answers that is a bonus otherwise it is you who needs to carry on, on your own. If you will not then you wont be able to face your creator because his creation is before your eyes and his message has been delivered to you.

Many people make excuses like, the quran is not in my mother tongue so how can I understand it properly? We know even our own mother tongues are not fully understood by us properly by us so that excuse does not make sense. It all depends on how much we are willing to learn regarding something therefore it is not the different language but the proper explanation of something that matters in this case.

Therefore the idea that the burden of proof rests on those who claim existence of God is fulfilled by them when they hand over alleged revelation of God to them who ask for it. Rest is fully dependent upon themselves to see how the alleged creation and revelation of God prove existence of God. This requires understanding of them both ie the creation and the revelation by those who asked for the evidence to begin with.

So those who will refuse to make the needed efforts in this regard will have no right to complain about wrong things happening to them in this world. It is because God has fulfilled his responsibilities towards human beings and his messengers have done their jobs perfectly well as missionaries of God. The rest is up to individuals as well as groups to do their parts or bits for their own well being in this world the while it lasts.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The problem with your method is that you are using the exact same methods that other people who believe in outlandish things use.

Take for example people who believe the Earth is flat. They start with the conclusion that the Earth is flat and set out to look for evidence that supports their world view and ignore everything else including their own experiments that show that the Earth is not flat.

Similarly you are starting with a conclusion that God exists and then setting out to find evidence to support your pre-existing belief and ignore everything that goes against it.

The reason why you study God is not because there was any evidence pointing towards it but because Pakistani society heavily brainwashes us from the school, to the society to the media to believe in it.

With your method you can convince yourself of anything. That Jinis exist, Earth is flat etc etc...

Start at the conclusion, ignore all conflicting evidence and you have an explanation for why so many intelligent people end up at the weirdest beliefs. Its because their thought process is flawed.

This is why I criticize Pakistan education system. They teach us what to think but they do not teach us how to think. This is probably why I get so shocked when I see your definitions of proof, evidence explanation etc. It is sad that such intelligent people have been put on such a path.

Dear vitamin c, if you read my posts this is the main problem with your approach to the issue. You are looking for someone else to prove to you existence of God. In other words you want to be spoon fed if I may say so.

The right approach in this regard is, you seek the evidence and the explanation by making as much effort as you can according to best of your God given abilities. So long as you do that sincerely you don't need to fear anything because God is not a monster or a tyrant who will throw you in hell. God created human beings to make their humanly possible efforts.

 

[Mughal1]

The problem with your method is that you are using the exact same methods that other people who believe in outlandish things use.

Take for example people who believe the Earth is flat. They start with the conclusion that the Earth is flat and set out to look for evidence that supports their world view and ignore everything else including their own experiments that show that the Earth is not flat.

Similarly you are starting with a conclusion that God exists and then setting out to find evidence to support your pre-existing belief and ignore everything that goes against it.

The reason why you study God is not because there was any evidence pointing towards it but because Pakistani society heavily brainwashes us from the school, to the society to the media to believe in it.

With your method you can convince yourself of anything. That Jinis exist, Earth is flat etc etc...

Start at the conclusion, ignore all conflicting evidence and you have an explanation for why so many intelligent people end up at the weirdest beliefs. Its because their thought process is flawed.

This is why I criticize Pakistan education system. They teach us what to think but they do not teach us how to think. This is probably why I get so shocked when I see your definitions of proof, evidence explanation etc. It is sad that such intelligent people have been put on such a path.

Dear vitamin c, I have been explaining from the beginning to the end how my way of tackling this issue works. You need to do the same for your point of view, which you have not done and in my view you can never do it. I have already explained why you cannot do it.

You have stated that you believe in possibility of existence of God. I don't think you realise the implication of making such a statement. The implication is if existence of God is possible in your view then how can you prove that existence? This is why I started my detailed explanation in this regard right from the start for you. You made various statements without realising their implications.

I explained already that to be truly an atheist one has to negate possibility of existence of God. However to negate that possibility one has to prove the method one uses for doing so. In my view to prove nonexistence of God directly is impossible for any human being this is why the question of possibility of existence of God arises to begin with so it needs to be tackled properly. I explained the method whereby we can do so, but you do not agree with that so you need to clearly state the method you think we can use to prove or disprove existence of God if God really does exist or nonexistence of God if God truly does not exist.

You said, I start from belief in existence of God. No I don't do that. I start from possibility of nonexistence of God. You need to distinguish between these two statements.

Now it is clear from your response that we both believe in possibility of existence of God. The question now is how can we prove if God really does exist? I have explained my way of going about solving this issue so it is high time you explained your way of going about this issue. It is not sufficient to say, I have not come across God face to face in my life so to me existence or nonexistence of God does not matter. If you refuse to consider this issue properly then it leads you into trouble with rest of humanity that takes this issue very seriously because you cannot justify yourself on that basis to others because of whom you came to existence and who are responsible for your survival directly or indirectly.

By agreeing on possibility of existence of God we both agree that to prove God does not exist directly is impossible because it is impossible for us to disprove existence of God directly. Therefore the only way we can prove or disprove existence of God is indirectly by examining the available evidences ie the alleged creation and revelation of God.

To begin with there is no way for us whereby we could prove the creation came into being all by itself. This means we must study the revelation to decide whether the creation was created by God or not. This is the stage where at a main question arises, have we prepared ourselves sufficiently to examine the alleged God sent scripture so that we could be reasonably sure about creation and revelation as well as God?

This is why I explained the place of the quran in this whole scenario and how it needs to be studied and examined properly by us human beings. If we will dismiss the quran without dealing with it this way then consequences are going to be always very serious for humanity as a whole. This is why individuals need to be ready to face their creator if there is one. The creation is real not a myth or imagination. Even if it was our imagination yet we are suffering in here due to problems we create for each other therefore it is still worth getting rid of those problems for us and the quran guides us the best to do so.

Just because simple minded people who lack proper education and wisdom about things therefore attribute all kinds of nonsense to the quran, you cannot attribute them to actual message of the quran and dismiss the quran on that basis. This does not discharge you from your responsibilities to your own self and others for tackling this issue properly. This is why each and every person must study the creation as well as the revelation of God no matter what to escape from all kinds of problems we create for each other due to our lack of proper knowledge of things.

The problem with your method is that you are using the exact same methods that other people who believe in outlandish things use.

Take for example people who believe the Earth is flat. They start with the conclusion that the Earth is flat and set out to look for evidence that supports their world view and ignore everything else including their own experiments that show that the Earth is not flat.

The issue of existence or nonexistence of God is very different from the issue of actual physical objects which we can verify for ourselves directly sooner or later. God issue needs to be tackled indirectly regardless we end up proving existence of God or fail to prove it or are able to disprove it.

The problem with your method is that you are using the exact same methods that other people who believe in outlandish things use.

Similarly you are starting with a conclusion that God exists and then setting out to find evidence to support your pre-existing belief and ignore everything that goes against it.

Here again you seem to be very confused. Why? Because you are failing to understand the point that existence or nonexistence of God cannot be proved directly. However it can be proven or disproven indirectly. This is why you are wrong to think the way you think in this regard.

Moreover in case of existence of God we have only and only two possibilities a) God exists and b) God does not exist. Now you tell me how can you discuss this issue other than the way I have explained? The way you are saying let us follow the evidence? What evidence? Also why should we follow any evidence? There has to be a reason to look for any evidence in the first place. What reason has to be there other than there is a God or there is no God to look for evidence. In either case we cannot find any direct evidence at all. If you or any of your ideological supporter can then please share. So no matter how you go about this issue it comes back to these two basic starting points.

If the existence of the creation of God is not any evidence for you and the existence of revelation of God is not any evidence for you, then what else is there that we can look for as evidence? So you can see your way of looking at things makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. With your kind of thinking humanity will have no way out of the existing situation ever in which humanity exists. This is why it is very wrong to go about this issue this way. You are telling us to follow a way that leads to nowhere therefore it is a nonstarter.

On the other hand, I am saying, let us examine the available evidences in this regard ie the alleged creation of God and the alleged revelation of God and see how they prove existence of God. If they fail then we can conclude there is no God. However first we must educate and train ourselves well enough that we are capable of understanding them both properly so that we do not end up rejecting evidences due to our mistakes.

So can you see now that I am not starting from the belief that God exists so I am trying to prove existence of God. I am saying let us start from possibility that God does not exist. Then I explain that this nonexistence of God possibility cannot be verified directly. Therefore we come to possibility of existence of God. Again this cannot be verified directly either. However this possibility of existence of God opens up for us a way to verify this claim one way or the other be it indirectly. This is how far humanity can go regarding knowing about existence or nonexistence of God. There is no other way possible, if there is then please explain.

The reason why you study God is not because there was any evidence pointing towards it but because Pakistani society heavily brainwashes us from the school, to the society to the media to believe in it.

Here I think you are very wrong. If you look around, throughout our human world, the issue of existence or nonexistence of God is taken very seriously by people throughout the world. Not because of muslims or Pakistan. You know as well as I that pakistan came into being on 14th aug 1947 but issue of God has been there even before the start of God sent revelations. God only started his revelations when some of the human beings became able to make sense of his world and his possible revelations. Before that people lived like animals because that is what they observed when they opened their eyes in this world because they themselves came from tree of life just like other living things and animals etc. Gradually they learned from themselves and things all around them and became sensible enough to distinguish themselves from animal kingdom. When some of them were able to understand guidance of God and they sought guidance of God or looked for it, God started sending them his guidance to help them become proper human beings so that they could live in this world properly in order to fulfil the purpose for which God created them. This is how there came about two groups of people ie those who continued living the way they used to live and those who came to know better way of living their lives so they adapted to new way of life ie deen of islam.

People in our world are not fighting with each other because of their natural differences but due to adapting to wrong ways of life whereby they try their best to dispossess each other of thing of need and want for their personal gains at the expense of each other. This is the real issue for humanity to come to terms with to this date and will continue till people have learned their lessons the hard way. This is why God told them how to live as a brotherhood of humanity to get rid of harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours. This is why there is not going to be peace between human beings till they accept deen of islam and live by it wholeheartedly for ensuring well being of each other by helping and fully supporting each other in believing and doing things that help them do so.

With your method you can convince yourself of anything. That Jinis exist, Earth is flat etc etc...

With my method you cannot believe and do just anything and everything but only that which makes sense and is good for humanity as a whole. I don’t believe in anything senseless. You need to go through my explanations of things to see what I believe and why I believe it. You will see me helping people to educate themselves so that they give up falsehood and accept what is true with reasonable understanding. I don’t believe in idea of miracles or magic or supernatural beings save God etc etc. I don’t accept nonsense of religious people they attribute to God just as I don’t accept nonsense of scientists or philosophers about God. I don’t see such people better than mullahs. If they were better than mullahs then they should not have argued with mullahs senselessly about the scripture on their grounds to prove the scripture wrong but they should have studied the scripture properly themselves to check if mullahs were right or wrong about the scripture. By not doing so they clearly proved they don’t have any better sense than mullahs.

I am surprised that in my replies you did not even notice how different my approach to things is from rest of the crowd including yourself?

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Indirect proof is not enough. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. The case for God is very weak because so far we have zero external or physical evidence.

Almost all the answers for our existence have been answered by physics. It just leaves no room for God anymore. Maybe few hundred years ago when did not have big bang theory or evolution, we didn't know how humans were created and how universe was created, we filled in the gap of our knowledge with God. Now we do not even have that excuse anymore.

Most people just point at a book written thousands of years ago by God knows who and say that is evidence.

Let me put the question back to you. Can you think of a condition, which if satisfied, proves that God does not exist?

If the answer is no then we can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. If such condition does not exist then there is no point even having this debate.

For example if you can find a rabbit fossil in the same layer as T-rex then that disproves evolution.

Dear vitamin c, I have been explaining from the beginning to the end how my way of tackling this issue works. You need to do the same for your point of view, which you have not done and in my view you can never do it. I have already explained why you cannot do it.

You have stated that you believe in possibility of existence of God. I don't think you realise the implication of making such a statement. The implication is if existence of God is possible in your view then how can you prove that existence? This is why I started my detailed explanation in this regard right from the start for you. You made various statements without realising their implications.

I explained already that to be truly an atheist one has to negate possibility of existence of God. However to negate that possibility one has to prove the method one uses for doing so. In my view to prove nonexistence of God directly is impossible for any human being this is why the question of possibility of existence of God arises to begin with so it needs to be tackled properly. I explained the method whereby we can do so, but you do not agree with that so you need to clearly state the method you think we can use to prove or disprove existence of God if God really does exist or nonexistence of God if God truly does not exist.

You said, I start from belief in existence of God. No I don't do that. I start from possibility of nonexistence of God. You need to distinguish between these two statements.

Now it is clear from your response that we both believe in possibility of existence of God. The question now is how can we prove if God really does exist? I have explained my way of going about solving this issue so it is high time you explained your way of going about this issue. It is not sufficient to say, I have not come across God face to face in my life so to me existence or nonexistence of God does not matter. If you refuse to consider this issue properly then it leads you into trouble with rest of humanity that takes this issue very seriously because you cannot justify yourself on that basis to others because of whom you came to existence and who are responsible for your survival directly or indirectly.

By agreeing on possibility of existence of God we both agree that to prove God does not exist directly is impossible because it is impossible for us to disprove existence of God directly. Therefore the only way we can prove or disprove existence of God is indirectly by examining the available evidences ie the alleged creation and revelation of God.

To begin with there is no way for us whereby we could prove the creation came into being all by itself. This means we must study the revelation to decide whether the creation was created by God or not. This is the stage where at a main question arises, have we prepared ourselves sufficiently to examine the alleged God sent scripture so that we could be reasonably sure about creation and revelation as well as God?

This is why I explained the place of the quran in this whole scenario and how it needs to be studied and examined properly by us human beings. If we will dismiss the quran without dealing with it this way then consequences are going to be always very serious for humanity as a whole. This is why individuals need to be ready to face their creator if there is one. The creation is real not a myth or imagination. Even if it was our imagination yet we are suffering in here due to problems we create for each other therefore it is still worth getting rid of those problems for us and the quran guides us the best to do so.

Just because simple minded people who lack proper education and wisdom about things therefore attribute all kinds of nonsense to the quran, you cannot attribute them to actual message of the quran and dismiss the quran on that basis. This does not discharge you from your responsibilities to your own self and others for tackling this issue properly. This is why each and every person must study the creation as well as the revelation of God no matter what to escape from all kinds of problems we create for each other due to our lack of proper knowledge of things.



The issue of existence or nonexistence of God is very different from the issue of actual physical objects which we can verify for ourselves directly sooner or later. God issue needs to be tackled indirectly regardless we end up proving existence of God or fail to prove it or are able to disprove it.



Here again you seem to be very confused. Why? Because you are failing to understand the point that existence or nonexistence of God cannot be proved directly. However it can be proven or disproven indirectly. This is why you are wrong to think the way you think in this regard.

Moreover in case of existence of God we have only and only two possibilities a) God exists and b) God does not exist. Now you tell me how can you discuss this issue other than the way I have explained? The way you are saying let us follow the evidence? What evidence? Also why should we follow any evidence? There has to be a reason to look for any evidence in the first place. What reason has to be there other than there is a God or there is no God to look for evidence. In either case we cannot find any direct evidence at all. If you or any of your ideological supporter can then please share. So no matter how you go about this issue it comes back to these two basic starting points.

If the existence of the creation of God is not any evidence for you and the existence of revelation of God is not any evidence for you, then what else is there that we can look for as evidence? So you can see your way of looking at things makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. With your kind of thinking humanity will have no way out of the existing situation ever in which humanity exists. This is why it is very wrong to go about this issue this way. You are telling us to follow a way that leads to nowhere therefore it is a nonstarter.

On the other hand, I am saying, let us examine the available evidences in this regard ie the alleged creation of God and the alleged revelation of God and see how they prove existence of God. If they fail then we can conclude there is no God. However first we must educate and train ourselves well enough that we are capable of understanding them both properly so that we do not end up rejecting evidences due to our mistakes.

So can you see now that I am not starting from the belief that God exists so I am trying to prove existence of God. I am saying let us start from possibility that God does not exist. Then I explain that this nonexistence of God possibility cannot be verified directly. Therefore we come to possibility of existence of God. Again this cannot be verified directly either. However this possibility of existence of God opens up for us a way to verify this claim one way or the other be it indirectly. This is how far humanity can go regarding knowing about existence or nonexistence of God. There is no other way possible, if there is then please explain.



Here I think you are very wrong. If you look around, throughout our human world, the issue of existence or nonexistence of God is taken very seriously by people throughout the world. Not because of muslims or Pakistan. You know as well as I that pakistan came into being on 14th aug 1947 but issue of God has been there even before the start of God sent revelations. God only started his revelations when some of the human beings became able to make sense of his world and his possible revelations. Before that people lived like animals because that is what they observed when they opened their eyes in this world because they themselves came from tree of life just like other living things and animals etc. Gradually they learned from themselves and things all around them and became sensible enough to distinguish themselves from animal kingdom. When some of them were able to understand guidance of God and they sought guidance of God or looked for it, God started sending them his guidance to help them become proper human beings so that they could live in this world properly in order to fulfil the purpose for which God created them. This is how there came about two groups of people ie those who continued living the way they used to live and those who came to know better way of living their lives so they adapted to new way of life ie deen of islam.

People in our world are not fighting with each other because of their natural differences but due to adapting to wrong ways of life whereby they try their best to dispossess each other of thing of need and want for their personal gains at the expense of each other. This is the real issue for humanity to come to terms with to this date and will continue till people have learned their lessons the hard way. This is why God told them how to live as a brotherhood of humanity to get rid of harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours. This is why there is not going to be peace between human beings till they accept deen of islam and live by it wholeheartedly for ensuring well being of each other by helping and fully supporting each other in believing and doing things that help them do so.



With my method you cannot believe and do just anything and everything but only that which makes sense and is good for humanity as a whole. I don’t believe in anything senseless. You need to go through my explanations of things to see what I believe and why I believe it. You will see me helping people to educate themselves so that they give up falsehood and accept what is true with reasonable understanding. I don’t believe in idea of miracles or magic or supernatural beings save God etc etc. I don’t accept nonsense of religious people they attribute to God just as I don’t accept nonsense of scientists or philosophers about God. I don’t see such people better than mullahs. If they were better than mullahs then they should not have argued with mullahs senselessly about the scripture on their grounds to prove the scripture wrong but they should have studied the scripture properly themselves to check if mullahs were right or wrong about the scripture. By not doing so they clearly proved they don’t have any better sense than mullahs.

I am surprised that in my replies you did not even notice how different my approach to things is from rest of the crowd including yourself?

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Indirect proof is not enough. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. The case for God is very weak because so far we have zero external or physical evidence.

Almost all the answers for our existence have been answered by physics. It just leaves no room for God anymore. Maybe few hundred years ago when did not have big bang theory or evolution, we didn't know how humans were created and how universe was created, we filled in the gap of our knowledge with God. Now we do not even have that excuse anymore.

Most people just point at a book written thousands of years ago by God knows who and say that is evidence.

Let me put the question back to you. Can you think of a condition, which if satisfied, proves that God does not exist?

If the answer is no then we can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. If such condition does not exist then there is no point even having this debate.

For example if you can find a rabbit fossil in the same layer as T-rex then that disproves evolution.

Scientists do not know, and religious people do not know either. Believing in something is not the same as knowing something. People believe in many things that are not true. The most reliable way of knowing the truth is to start in a neutral position and see where the evidence leads us. Irrational people such as flat earthers, religious apologetic, young earth creationists, anti vaxxers, will start at the conclusion first and try to find evidence that fit their conclusion and ignoring all evidence that doesnt.

Dear vitamin c, since you have raised question about actually knowing things directly, are you sure we can really know anything and everything in every way and in all its aspects directly? I do not think so. All we can do is try to reason out things as much as we can and that is how we fill gaps in our knowledge about anything and everything. This is why we have deductive reasoning. We only know some facts about something in some respects and the rest is all our conjectures and suppositions and explanations. This is why demanding that God should only be accepted if he can be proven directly is not the right way to go about this issue.

All abstracts or concepts are subjective or ideas or thoughts in minds which cannot be proven directly, if you can please explain how? This is to show to you that your actual stance in this regard is utterly and totally wrong. You are mixing up objects and subjects or what is concrete and what is abstract. Even an object is not necessarily a directly observable concrete reality let alone an idea or thought. The very idea that you are trying to argue your case rationally is not a concrete reality. So you can see why you are wrong. We cannot observe germs by naked eye. To invent instruments to help us do that indirectly is based upon our deductive reasoning. Tell me if it is not? This is why to question logically consistent reasoning is death of our human learning process. This is why you cannot dismiss an explanation because all our human knowledge is nothing more than an explanation of anything and everything. Till you accept this as basis you lose the foundation for arguing your case. So you can see how consistent you are in your arguments and basing your stance upon those like arguments.

If we were walking along and came across a tree, you could not prove to me the existence of the tree unless you resorted to an explanation to convince me about it. This is why the ultimate thing is not the object but its explanation as to how it makes sense to our minds. This is why I told you proof is just a purpose based best explanation about an abstract concept or a concrete reality. If you dismiss this then you lose the way to solving any and every case. Scientific theories are nothing but explanations about the involved ideas and objects. Our predictions are also not objects but ideas assessed on the basis of our observations and explanations as we understand them in our minds.

My position is not that God does not exist. It is that I do not know whether or not God exist and I am looking for evidence constantly to find the conclusion. I am willing all the time to change my position if I am presented with better evidence. Maybe universe is God? Maybe its an alien race that controls the simulation that we mistake as reality? The honest answer is we do not know...

Your position is you do not know how to argue for or against existence or nonexistence of God. This is the reason I explained to you that your standpoint is not right to begin with. Your stance demolishes the whole idea of knowledge and process of learning. You have no solid starting point to begin from. The sooner you realise this point the better it is for you and for anyone who is in your situation. So before you argue against something make sure you have a solid foundation to rest your case upon otherwise you can keep arguing but you will make absolutely no sense at all.

Indirect proof is not enough. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. The case for God is very weak because so far we have zero external or physical evidence.

Proof is always indirect by its very nature because proof is just an explanation about an idea or object. This means you have no real understanding of what an evidence or a proof is, you just have some rough idea in your head as to what an evidence or proof is and you are applying that in your arguments without really thinking it through thoroughly regarding its implications. Word evidence has many meanings including an objects that is self evident as well as a testimony of a witness or an explanation by an expert about something as well as proof. A proof is called proof because it is a covering or an umbrella that is free of holes. This is why we call something waterproof or fireproof or foolproof etc etc. Likewise the best possible explanation of something is called a proof because none can make whole in it or burst it with his counter arguments etc etc.

You want extra ordinary evidence? It shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Why not? Because the very implication of your demand is, God should be standing right before you. However even if God really did stand right before you, you will still need explanations to ensure it was God who is in front of you and not someone or something else. So it comes back to explanation rather than evidence itself proving itself. No evidence proves itself each and everything needs the best possible explanation to prove itself. This is why the quran is called testimony of God for proving all God wanted to prove to humanity by putting before humanity his creation and revelation as evidences.

As for extraordinary evidence, is the creation of God not an extraordinary evidence? Could human beings ever bring it about? The quran is also an extra ordinary book because the way of life it talks about could not be thought out by humanity itself. This is why God puts before humanity the quran as a challenge to produce one like it. Can you or any human being advise mankind how to live properly in this world? No, not at all. Why not? Because human beings do not have the needed knowledge for doing so. It is because only the one who has created all this could know how it is set up to work and for what purpose etc etc. If anyone else tried to tell us how to live, he will be proven wrong many times over because our human capability is very limited. We do not really know much about this universe that is why we are always in trouble in this world in various ways every now and again. So can you see now how weak or strong the case for God is? It is as strong as possible. Our problems as human beings is, we don’t think as much as we need to.

Almost all the answers for our existence have been answered by physics. It just leaves no room for God anymore. Maybe few hundred years ago when did not have big bang theory or evolution, we didn't know how humans were created and how universe was created, we filled in the gap of our knowledge with God. Now we do not even have that excuse anymore.

It is very foolish for one to think this way, why? Because God created his creation and sent his revelation for the understanding of human beings so that by doing so they could fulfil the very purpose for which he has created them. This is the very reason he gave human beings brains, senses, bodies and all that they needed to learn and do to fulfil the purpose of their creator and sustainer. All this is fully consistent with each other. God did not create people fully programmed rather he created them to be able to self program as they go long and interact with things and each other in the given environment with a little help from God through his revealed messages. This is why as we learn things that learning helps us to learn more and more things about more and more things. This is why we discover new things or their new aspects and become better and better aware of things. This is why we reinterpret God sent revelation in light of new knowledge for better understanding of things just like a baby does as he grows and finds out more and more things for himself. It does not mean things baby becomes aware of were not right before baby understood them correctly. It was just a matter of reinterpretation because before baby looked at things the baby way now after growing up he looks at the very same things in a very different way due to their better understanding by him. This is why the Quranic text and this universe virtually remain the very same for a person as they were but human understanding of things keeps changing with time and improvements in human knowledge.

Most people just point at a book written thousands of years ago by God knows who and say that is evidence.

Revelations of God could not be written or changed by people for the reasons already explained because they were sent for their guidance, however people always moved away from study of the creation and the revelation and lived their lives as they liked and they are still doing that before our very eyes. People have organised and regulated their societies therefore their lives in such a way that most of them never have enough to eat so they are always busy trying to put food on their table and those who have what they need they try to spend their time in avoiding boredom and that is why there come about very little changes and in a very bad way ie through bloody revolutions and terrible interactions between groups of people. It is because human beings still have not realised vital importance of proper education and training about living their lives properly in the house or kingdom of God called the universe. In house of God people need to live by his advised house rules not their own rules which they can never agree upon because the very same rule does not suit everyone ie rich wants things his way and poor his way so how can they compromise unless they had some real basis to rely upon for bigger personal gains? This is why the quran proposes a way of life that suits everyone. This is why no rich could have written this book nor any poor because it goes against their perceptions of each other.

Today we only have one book called the quran which is from God and no other book from God at all. The quran is not studied by very many people as it ought to be studied otherwise things could not be this bad in the human world in our time because we think we are most clever people of our time on the face of this earth. However the reality of human world is right before us staring us in the eyes.

Let me put the question back to you. Can you think of a condition, which if satisfied, proves that God does not exist?

If the answer is no then we can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. If such condition does not exist then there is no point even having this debate.

You always put forth your questions the wrong way because your standpoint is utterly baseless. You have seen me explaining things very clearly for you, that is as much as I could clarify them for you for the time being. However it is up to individuals to make needed efforts to understand things for themselves. As I said before, I can only help others to a very limited degree the rest is all up to themselves. So long as one makes sincere efforts God will not disappoint one.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews all say the same about their book. Neither of you have any external evidence to support your claims outside of your holy books each claiming theirs to be true.

As far as I know honey is made by bees and books are written by men.

Today we only have one book called the quran which is from God and no other book from God at all.

 

[Mughal1]

Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews all say the same about their book. Neither of you have any external evidence to support your claims outside of your holy books each claiming theirs to be true.

As far as I know honey is made by bees and books are written by men.

Dear vitamin c, have you read any of the books you are talking about? Does any of them claim to be word of God? Please state clearly in each and every case.

Yes, honey is made by bees and books are written by people. However, if there is a God which you also accept as a possibility then he has created this whole creation, so in that case what makes you think he cannot interact with his creatures to get his message to them? Can you see how your logical consistency breaks down. This proves your approach or the way you are looking at things is not right.

As soon as you accept possibility of existence of God, you are also forced by reason to accept the implications of doing so which go with it.

Moreover its choice of God how he decides to do what he chooses to do. All we human beings can do is see if it makes sense and if it does then it is fine otherwise not.

Whether any alleged God sent book is truly from God, requires us human beings to scrutinise it and then decide. In order to scrutinise any alleged scripture from God we must first and foremost learn the knowledge that could help us decide the issue. We cannot afford to reject such a scripture at will because that has most serious consequences for humanity as whole.

It is because a God sent scripture ought to tell us things I have already talked about in my earlier posts in this very thread. If it does not tell us about those things then it cannot be of any use for us therefore it cannot be from God. Moreover note that the information we need from God is the information that is extraordinary by its very nature. Can you comprehend this point? This is why the quran puts a challenge for humanity to bring forth similar information if you can if you think it can come from human beings instead of God himself.

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]