Incredible human rights violations in non-credible India

sher_khan

Senator (1k+ posts)
The purpose of this posting is to inform the patrons of this website (specially the Indian ones) that when the Indian government and specially Indians present a very rosy picture of the their countrys state of affairs in front of the rest of the world, in essence all they are doing is misleading and misinforming the global masses. It effects me directly because they portray themselves as very pious and criticize my fellow citizens and my country. They ask us to follow and resemble their approach. It is important to realize that Indias biggest talk point is its democracy.

How effective is its democracy? How effective are its legislative, law enforcement and judicial institutions? Can an average human being regardless of his/her cultural background pursue his/her dreams, which we take for granted in Pakistan? Is India really a secular country? Can a minority group of 160 million people (almost equal to the whole population of Pakistan) live with dignity without being harassed and abused?

You can find out the answers by clicking on the link listed at the bottom of this post. Please pay special attention to the clip from 2:15 to 2:38. You can actually hear the human spirit breaking there when a high cast person is laughing at the low cast person, who just wants to drink a cup of tea. Also, I would like to ask the other visitors of this website, how would they feel if someone would have talked about women of their community, like this high cast guy did about the low cast women? Please see the clip from 3:24 to 3:53.

Furthermore, to all my Indian intellectuals and self-loathing Pakistani brothers who would start responding to this post via pointing out weaknesses in Pakistani society, I have the following message:

Pakistan does not claim to be either an incredible or a secular state. We neither claim to be a great democracy nor we expect other people to follow our approach. And we definitely dont give false impressions to our global citizens when we compare ourselves with other countries. Relatively speaking, minorities are treated way better in Pakistan than in India

Thanks God that I don't live in India.
Sher Khan

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxy1R0jitM[/video]
 

Adeel

Founder
Hi Sher,

I believe you posted another video yesterday along the same lines. Maybe moderator should merge them together.

When I lived in Pakistan, We had servants for each job in the house and we never let them eat with us or even sit on our chairs/Sofas. We had different glass and plates for them. Basically, It is kind of the same concept. The unfortunate thing is that we never realized that we are doing something wrong! until we moved overseas. These things have become part of our culture and consider norms in our society.

Most of upper class Dalits probably don't even realize that these things are wrong. They need awareness and media needs to work even harder to raise these issues in their society.
 

sher_khan

Senator (1k+ posts)
Hi Adeel:

Thanks for your reply.

We had servants in Pakistan too. The house servants did not eat with us simultaneously because they were serving us the meal. The driver would eat after us but along with the other servants on the same dining table that we ate on. They will eat what ever we ate. In some cases they did not like what we ate and cooked a meal of their own.

We would rather not have a meal with the driver because of our private conversations, which we did not want to share with him. It had nothing to do with what the driver did for a living. Interestingly, my mother once got an earful from a servant's duaghter when she tried to give the servant's duaghter a dress that she had already worn a few times.

I am afraid times have changed. But India didn't.

However, I do belivee that such discrimination does take place in Pakistan too and sometimes it's a function of lack of confidence between the employer and the employee. Not necessary the cast. Nevertheless, a lot of people in Pakistan have retained the negatives from the Indian culture, when we used to be a part of it. My mother tells me that when she and her family uses to live in India, they used o practice ths discrimantion too.

Also, most of the employers in Pakistan are not sexually abusive to their employees. Unlike India, where the Dalait women are raped every day.

As I mentioned earlier, we don't claim to be better than our neigbours, like Indians do.

Sher Khan
 

Adeel

Founder
sher_khan said:
Hi Adeel:

Thanks for your reply.

We had servants in Pakistan too. The house servants did not eat with us simultaneously because they were serving us the meal. The driver would eat after us but along with the other servants on the same dining table that we ate on. They will eat what ever we ate. In some cases they did not like what we ate and cooked a meal of their own.

We would rather not have a meal with the driver because of our private conversations, which we did not want to share with him. It had nothing to do with what the driver did for a living. Interestingly, my mother once got an earful from a servant's duaghter when she tried to give the servant's duaghter a dress that she had already worn a few times.

I am afraid times have changed. But India didn't.

However, I do belivee that such discrimination does take place in Pakistan too and sometimes it's a function of lack of confidence between the employer and the employee. Not necessary the cast. Nevertheless, a lot of people in Pakistan have retained the negatives from the Indian culture, when we used to be a part of it. My mother tells me that when she and her family uses to live in India, they used o practice ths discrimantion too.

Also, most of the employers in Pakistan are not sexually abusive to their employees. Unlike India, where the Dalait women are raped every day.

As I mentioned earlier, we don't claim to be better than our neigbours.

Sher Khan

Upper class cast in India has crossed all the limits. I was discussing this with one of my family members and he said, we felt and acted like, we are better than them because we were well off and they were poor and working for us but we were never cruel with them and always tried to help them.

Pakistan has descrimination but nowhere you will find people getting treated that badly.
 

cmq07md

Voter (50+ posts)
Pakistani graduate raped to punish her low-caste family http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article648817.ece
Dean Nelson, Delhi, and Ghulam Hasnain, Karachi
A YOUNG Pakistani woman has been kidnapped, raped and beaten by a gang of high-caste villagers because her uncle eloped with one of their relatives. She was chosen for punishment because she had recently gained a degree and was the pride of her low-caste family.

Ghazala Shaheen, 24, and her mother Mumtaz were abducted last month by men dressed in police uniforms from their home near Multan in southern Punjab.

Her shocking ordeal mirrors that of Mukhtaran Mai, 29, who became a symbol in the campaign for womens rights in Pakistan after she was gang-raped because her 12-year-old brother had been seen with a higher-caste woman. Six men were found guilty but five later had their convictions overturned.

That case provoked an international outcry and led to moves to reform Pakistans Islamic rape and adultery laws which effectively criminalise rape victims.

Last week human rights campaigners said Shaheen was unlikely to see her attackers brought to justice because President Pervez Musharraf had failed in an attempt to repeal the Hudood Ordinance, which requires four male Muslim witnesses to support a rape charge. If the accused is acquitted, the victim becomes liable to prosecution for adultery.

While Musharraf was out of the country earlier this month, a committee of hardline Islamic scholars neutered his bill to protect womens rights which would have repealed the Hudood Ordinance. The scholars claimed the bill was un-Islamic because it encouraged adultery.

Shaheens ordeal began last month when 11 armed men, believed to be security guards employed by one of Musharrafs ministers, forced their way into her home, attacked her father and brothers and pulled her and her mother into the street.

They said we were wanted by the police and dragged me and my mother outside. My shirt was torn off in the struggle, she said last week.

Outside, I saw about six or seven motorcycles. They put me on one and my mother on another. We were crying and shouting. They threatened to kill us if we kept shouting. They gagged our mouths with sheets. At one point my mother started resisting and she was beaten with guns.

They were moved between isolated desert houses at first. As night fell on the third day, Shaheens mother was taken to another location and she was left alone with one of the gang members.

This man sat next to me. A moment later he was on to me. He hit me with his gun on my back and on my body and raped me. I was crying and weeping. But he did not listen, and he repeated it, she said.

In the morning, I was told to stand up and accompany this man. I was in pain. I could barely walk. Finally we reached a big house with Nazar Mirani (the gang leader) sitting outside. The man who had raped me told Nazar that he had done what he wanted with me and now it was his turn. They took me to a nearby cotton field and Nazar Mirani raped me.

Shaheen said she knew Miranis name because he had filed a case against her uncle, accusing him of eloping with his wife. Mirani had previously threatened and harassed her father, a former soldier who runs a shop from their mud and brick home.

Mirani later told Shaheen he was taking her to Lahore to marry her so that she could not give evidence against him or his men. As the women were being driven from the house, they were stopped at a police roadblock and freed by officers Shaheens father had alerted.

According to her relatives, she had been selected as a kidnap target to maximise her familys humiliation. She had been been the first in her family to gain a degree. This earned her a job as a local schoolteacher, but the offer was withdrawn after officials said they did not want to be associated with someone who had been raped.

Shaheen said she was determined to bring her kidnappers and rapists to justice. My mission is to get all of them arrested and hanged, so they cannot do this to any other woman, she said.

The prospects of a successful prosecution appear slim. Only Mirani has been arrested on kidnapping charges, and without the four essential witnesses a rape conviction is unlikely.

Rashid Rehman of Pakistans Human Rights Commission said that while hospital tests confirmed Shaheen had been raped, the examination was conducted too late to identify the rapists.

Ghazala Shaheen has no chance of getting justice. The evidence has been destroyed. Doctors confirm she has been raped but she cant prove that she has been raped by the suspects, he said. There are hundreds of similar cases in southern Punjab every year, he added.



Six men found guilty in gang rape http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/31/pakistan.gang.rape/
Thursday, December 12, 2002 Posted: 2:16 AM EST (0716 GMT)


DERA GHAZI KHAN, Pakistan -- A judge sentenced six men to death by hanging Sunday for their roles in the gang rape of a woman whose brother was accused of having relations with a higher-caste woman, the prosecutor said.

A judge in an anti-terrorism court trial in Dera Ghazi Khan convicted four of the men of raping 30-year-old Mukhtaran Bibi, said prosecuting attorney Malik Ramzan Joya.

Two other men were convicted of abetting the rape. They were part of a 10-person tribal council that authorized the rape. The other eight members were acquitted.

After Bibi's brother was accused of having relations with a higher-caste woman, members of her family called a tribal council to determine proper punishment.

That punishment was for the four men to gang rape the man's sister. The rape occurred June 22 in Meerawala, a small town in Punjab province in central Pakistan.


Bibi was dragged to a house, where she was raped. She then was thrown out of the house and forced to walk nearly naked to her parents' house as hundreds of villagers stared at her.

The case sparked outrage across Pakistan.

The verdict was announced shortly after midnight. The woman's lawyer said her client -- who lives with her parents -- had not been told of the verdict, because of the late hour.

The men have seven days to appeal the verdict.

Earlier, Bibi appealed to the government for a safer place to live, saying she has been threatened with revenge if the men were convicted.

Bibi told Reuters news agency that relatives of the defendants had threatened to kill members of her family if the 14 were convicted.

"We are receiving death threats," Bibi told Reuters from her home in Meerawala.

The four convicted of rape come from the wealthy Mastoi clan.

"They have told us that if their four people are sentenced to death, they would kill eight of our men," Bibi said.

"Not only my family, but those who supported us are being threatened with dire consequences."

Police protection has been provided for the family but has done little to ease fears of revenge.

When the 10 village elders ordered the rape, it sent shockwaves across the country and made headlines around the world casting the spotlight on Pakistan's police and judicial system.

In July, the supreme court in Islamabad issued a stinging rebuke of local police accusing them of negligence for failing to even register a case until more than a week after the rape took place.

As a result of perceived security threats, the 23-day trial was held behind closed doors at the special anti-terrorism court.

Extra security forces were deployed in the town ahead of the expected verdict with an increased police presence in Meerwala.


Prior to the rape, Bibi says she turned to the village's tribal council after her brother was kidnapped by a family from the Mastoi clan and accused of raping one of its members.

The brother, Abdul Shakoor, was reportedly sodomized by Mastoi men as punishment.

However, the council's elders ruled that in order to save the honor of the Mastoi family, Shakoor would have to marry the woman with whom he was linked.

Furthermore the council ruled Bibi was to be given away in marriage to a Mastoi man.

The prosecution charges that when Bibi rejected that decision she was gang-raped by four Mastoi men.

The woman's father said he was forced to witness the rape, although he begged continually for the attackers to stop.

A defense lawyer for one of the accused argued during the trial that the rape charge against his client was invalid because Bibi was technically married to him at the time.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asia ... gang.rape/
 

cmq07md

Voter (50+ posts)
Strong feelings over Pakistan rape laws http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6152520.stm
By Syed Shoaib Hasan
BBC News, Karachi

Mukhtar Mai at Islamabad press conference 5 March 2005
It is not clear how the bill might affect rape victims like Mukhtar Mai
The vote by Pakistan's lower house of parliament to amend laws concerning rape and adultery has been met with mixed emotions, but the bill's likely impact is far from clear.

While the government called the legislation "historic", the religious parties are calling it "un-Islamic" and "a secular conspiracy" against an Islamic Pakistan.

The Women's Protection Bill was passed after much wrangling and posturing between the government and the religious opposition.

The bill seeks to amend the heavily criticised Hudood Ordinance laws which govern the punishment for rape and adultery.

Under the controversial Hudood Ordinance, brought in under Gen Zia-ul-Haq from 1979, a rape victim had to provide four male eyewitnesses to the crime. Failure to do so would open the way to her being charged with adultery.

The punishment for adultery is lashings and stoning according to traditional Islamic law, although such punishments were never implemented in Pakistan.

'Un-Islamic'

The new Women's Protection Bill brings rape under the Pakistan Penal Code, which is based on civil law, not Sharia.


It's going to change things, but not a great deal
Lawyer Imrana Khwaja


Liberal politicians and women's' rights activists have welcomed the reforms as progress - but say they do not go far enough.

Most campaigners want nothing less than the total repeal of the Hudood Ordinance which covers much more than sexual morality but also matters such as drinking and theft.

Nevertheless, many are calling Wednesday's vote "a small step in the right direction".

Iqbal Haider, general secretary of the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, says: "I must emphasise that these are not a substitute for the repeal of the Hudood Ordinance.

"However, this is a positive step, although much needs to be done."

Religious hardliners are up in arms, however.

"We have been against the bill from the start," says Samia Raheel Qazi, a women MP from the conservative MMA alliance, and daughter of senior MMA leader Qazi Hussain Ahmed.

President Musharraf
The legislation is being seen as a key test for President Musharraf

She maintains that the bill goes against articles 2a and 227 of the constitution of Pakistan, which state respectively that "Islam will be the state religion" and "No laws will be passed which are repugnant to the Koran and sunnah."

"The Hudood Ordinance was devised by a highly qualified group of ulema (Islamic scholars), and is beyond question," she says, adding that five elected assemblies since Gen Zia's time have found the laws valid.

She is convinced that the current legislation is part of an American agenda, and adds: "This is not the act of a sovereign parliament... It's a military dictatorship imposing its will on the people."

'Historic'

A majority in the parliament evidently, however, does not share these views.

Lawmakers in the NWFP assembly
Pakistan's religious parties have threatened protests

MPs from the government coalition have hailed the legislation as a "great victory".

Haider Rizvi, an MP from the MQM, a minority party in the ruling coalition, says: "This is a historic day in the fight against the forces of feudalism and fundamentalism."

The MQM has played a key part in pushing the legislation through, bearing in mind the known religious leanings of its majority coalition partner, the PML-Q.

"When these laws come into effect, the false accusation which inflicts such cruelty and injustice on defenceless women will be brought under control," says Mr Rizvi.

He points out that there have been 5,400 cases against women in Pakistan under the Hudood Ordinance, and a majority of them are concerned with rape and adultery cases.

"Previously, all women were treated as guilty - now they can stand and ask for justice without any fear of legal action."

Enforcement

The new laws propose that all charges concerning rape and adultery will be heard by a sessions judge who will determine whether there is enough evidence to warrant an investigation.


Reporting rape cases will now be much harder, most analysts believe

If the accusations are found to be false, then the complainant will immediately have a case registered against him or her, with a punishment of 80 lashes.

Observers and analysts feel that given that the writ of the law is hardly ever enforced, and then usually on the side of the powerful, it still remains to be seen how poor rural women such as gang rape victim Mukhtar Mai would benefit from the proposed new legislation.

Mr Haider says the "real test will come with enforcement".

Imrana Khwaja, a lawyer and former women's rights activist says: "It's going to change things, but not a great deal."

She says there are loopholes to be exploited. For example, someone complaining of adultery can still decide to have the case heard in an Islamic court. As in rape cases, the complainant has to produce four witnesses to back up the accusation.

"Rural communities always react strongly against adultery cases, and finding four witnesses to testify on the complainants' behalf from the community is not hard," she says.

Another other factor is that reporting rape cases will now be much harder, most analysts believe.

Complainants will have to report rapes in district sessions courts rather than local police stations, which are open round the clock.

While women will feel safer in the court, many in rural areas will have to travel miles to register their cases.

And they will not be able to do so during long hours when the court is closed - hours which could be crucial in gathering forensic or circumstantial evidence.
 
Dear cmq07md:

im happy that Indians atleast started to talk with proofs... infact after the Mumbai attacks, the way Indian Media built the case against Pakistan, made me sure that Indian Media is a bunch of fools... anyway dear cmq07md our case is differnet:

1: Our relegion does not in any way allows those things happening in our rare villges. This maybe happening because of the low education, and just because they are far from the hand of law...

2: But surely all the kids go to same schools and nobuddy behave like Brahman-Dalits as in your case.

3: Specially i saw a Dalit girl in the video who was treated bad by her teacher.... i mean look at that man, how a teacher(with all the education and awareness can do this).. in our country no teacher can dare to behave like this... and offcourse Rich - Poor relation is a different thing, which i believe exists in every socity...

4: women rape is not allowed in any any circumstances as in your case (where a high cast hindu is all free to rape Dalits women)... and offcourse i dnt neglect the rape cases in pakistan.. but again its happening in every society, USA, and other well developed countries are no exceptions in this case.

Goodbye.....
 

cmq07md

Voter (50+ posts)
sikandar436 said:
Dear cmq07md:

im happy that Indians atleast started to talk with proofs... infact after the Mumbai attacks, the way Indian Media built the case against Pakistan, made me sure that Indian Media is a bunch of fools... anyway dear cmq07md our case is differnet:

1: Our relegion does not in any way allows those things happening in our rare villges. This maybe happening because of the low education, and just because they are far from the hand of law...

2: But surely all the kids go to same schools and nobuddy behave like Brahman-Dalits as in your case.

3: Specially i saw a Dalit girl in the video who was treated bad by her teacher.... i mean look at that man, how a teacher(with all the education and awareness can do this).. in our country no teacher can dare to behave like this... and offcourse Rich - Poor relation is a different thing, which i believe exists in every socity...

4: women rape is not allowed in any any circumstances as in your case (where a high cast hindu is all free to rape Dalits women)... and offcourse i dnt neglect the rape cases in pakistan.. but again its happening in every society, USA, and other well developed countries are no exceptions in this case.

Goodbye.....

Dear Sikander,
Why our friends in Pakistan are in permanent state of denial. Let me be clear--I'm neither Indian nor Pakistani. Discrimination is everywhere. For your better understanding, please visit this page in wikipedia that highlights the caste system in Pakistan besides South Asian Muslims
[size=7][b]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_(social)#Caste_in_Pakistan[/b][/size]

I have never seen any blog by Indians where they claim that their society is free of all evils. The whole world knows that Caste system is widely prevalent in Hinduism. Many Hindu scholars abhor it including their prime minister ([b][url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/28/india.mainsection[/b][/url]

You yourself have mentioned that developed countries also have many issues. Injustice with migrants in developed countries like USA, UK, and Europe is very much similar to caste system.

I hope that instead of criticizing India, people in this community must work to develop Pakistan. Pakistan is a very beautiful country. It can generate unbelievable amount of revenue through Tourism. The talent among Pakistani youth is unparalleled and it must be channelized in right direction to make our beloved Pakistan one of the best nation in the world.
If middle east countries, which are also Islamic republics, can show growth compared to western societies, then I see no point that Pakistan Can't do that.
Let India rot. Let the caste system in India prevail. They will kill amongst themselves. India is a nation of 562 princely states. India can never be united as everyone has seen in past 60 years. There are many factions and many ideologies within India. they will always prevent India to become 'Incredible India'
I strongly believe that the masterminds behind mumbai blasts were people who knew India well and who can know India better than Indians themselves??

Allah hafiz...
 

lahori

Senator (1k+ posts)
Very well done and good effort pulling out all these news my indian friend.

If you read the whole thread, you will realize we are not in denial and mentioned instances where Pakistanis are treated unfairly. Especially some areas in Sindh but the numbers are no where near to 160 million(Dalits). That is about the whole population of Pakistan. You will find these kinds of incidents here and there, very rarely. Unlike India!(the biggest democracy in the world?)
 

cmq07md

Voter (50+ posts)
lahori said:
Very well done and good effort pulling out all these news my indian friend.

If you read the whole thread, you will realize we are not in denial and mentioned instances where Pakistanis are treated unfairly. Especially some areas in Sindh but the numbers are no where near to 160 million(Dalits). That is about the whole population of Pakistan. You will find these kinds of incidents here and there, very rarely. Unlike India!(the biggest democracy in the world?)

Thanks Lahori,

All these news and video clips our dear, dear friends put here to show problem in India are in fact made available by Indian media itself (or foreign media in some cases). It is not Pakistani media that investigates it.

Plight of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan is known to everyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Pakistan#Human_Rights_Violations_on_Hindus

Yes India is the biggest democracy in the world and it has it's shortcomings. But India never hides it. Pakistan's basis is religion, it's 98% population is Muslim. It has never remained a democracy. The reason, many stories from Pakistan do not come, is clearly obvious. there is no freedom of press. your media is frequently banned. Brave journalists are intimidated by fundamentalists. People have zero tolerance over all the matters.

And I do not understand that why whosoever talks with sanity, becomes an Indian?? I have seen same thing with Dr. Parvez Hoodbhoy. Pakistanis call on talk show and tell that he is a traitor. Can one have better example than this for 'state of denial'??

Why do people in pakistan destroy a temple if Babri masjid is destroyed in India?? The same is with Pakistani media. The biggest joker is 'Zaid Hamid'. The whole basis of Pakistan's existence seems to retaliate India.

"Great nations build themselves by overcoming there shortcomings and developing themselves. No one in history has grown by pulling others down."
 

lahori

Senator (1k+ posts)
cmq07md said:
lahori said:
Very well done and good effort pulling out all these news my indian friend.

If you read the whole thread, you will realize we are not in denial and mentioned instances where Pakistanis are treated unfairly. Especially some areas in Sindh but the numbers are no where near to 160 million(Dalits). That is about the whole population of Pakistan. You will find these kinds of incidents here and there, very rarely. Unlike India!(the biggest democracy in the world?)

Thanks Lahori,

All these news and video clips our dear, dear friends put here to show problem in India are in fact made available by Indian media itself (or foreign media in some cases). It is not Pakistani media that investigates it.

Plight of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan is known to everyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Pakistan#Human_Rights_Violations_on_Hindus

Yes India is the biggest democracy in the world and it has it's shortcomings. But India never hides it. Pakistan's basis is religion, it's 98% population is Muslim. It has never remained a democracy. The reason, many stories from Pakistan do not come, is clearly obvious. there is no freedom of press. your media is frequently banned. Brave journalists are intimidated by fundamentalists. People have zero tolerance over all the matters.

And I do not understand that why whosoever talks with sanity, becomes an Indian?? I have seen same thing with Dr. Parvez Hoodbhoy. Pakistanis call on talk show and tell that he is a traitor. Can one have better example than this for 'state of denial'??

Why do people in pakistan destroy a temple if Babri masjid is destroyed in India?? The same is with Pakistani media. The biggest joker is 'Zaid Hamid'. The whole basis of Pakistan's existence seems to retaliate India.

"Great nations build themselves by overcoming there shortcomings and developing themselves. No one in history has grown by pulling others down."

Ok, I wouldn't call you an Indian, You can pretend to be whoever you like :P

Shortcomings? Dalits are about 20% of the population and they get treated like shit, even worst than the black in the USA upto late 70s - mid 80s.

India never hides? For god sakes the murderer of GUJRAT MASSACRE sits in your parliment and runs your government! It is a well known truth and has been exposed many times but still he is your leader. Shame on the biggest democracy of the world!

No freedom of press? How did the dictator, Musharaf came down? Press/Media had a huge role besides lawyers movement.

There are elements of extremism in Pakistan but not as much as India does. There are over 100 extremist organizations in India. Please fix yourself first before pointing fingers at other!
 

sher_khan

Senator (1k+ posts)
Re: Incredible human rights violations in non-credible India
by cmq07md on Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:53 pm


Dear Sikander,
Why our friends in Pakistan are in permanent state of denial. Let me be clear--I'm neither Indian nor Pakistani. Discrimination is everywhere. For your better understanding, please visit this page in wikipedia that highlights the caste system in Pakistan besides South Asian Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_(social)#Caste_in_Pakistan

I have never seen any blog by Indians where they claim that their society is free of all evils. The whole world knows that Caste system is widely prevalent in Hinduism. Many Hindu scholars abhor it including their prime minister (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/28/india.mainsection

You yourself have mentioned that developed countries also have many issues. Injustice with migrants in developed countries like USA, UK, and Europe is very much similar to caste system.

I hope that instead of criticizing India, people in this community must work to develop Pakistan. Pakistan is a very beautiful country. It can generate unbelievable amount of revenue through Tourism. The talent among Pakistani youth is unparalleled and it must be channelized in right direction to make our beloved Pakistan one of the best nation in the world.
If middle east countries, which are also Islamic republics, can show growth compared to western societies, then I see no point that Pakistan Can't do that.
Let India rot. Let the caste system in India prevail. They will kill amongst themselves. India is a nation of 562 princely states. India can never be united as everyone has seen in past 60 years. There are many factions and many ideologies within India. they will always prevent India to become 'Incredible India'
I strongly believe that the masterminds behind mumbai blasts were people who knew India well and who can know India better than Indians themselves??

Allah hafiz...

Hey cmq07md:

Unfortunately the world is more complex than you think. You don't see a physical war currently and probably have a notion that India will never attack Pakistan. The truth is that India has already done that. It's called propaganda war. India ignored its own internal problems and squarely blamed Pakistan with in "few" hours of the Mumbai attacks. They can't catch the people behind the plan after a month of the incident but claim that they knew it was planned in Pakistan within few hours after it started? They don't share any evidence. Even with the Interpol? Do you know why? Because there is no such evidence that points all the fingers to Pakistan.

Granted that it is possible that Pakistanis were involved but why the double standards? When Pakistanis, which are not affiliated with the Pakistani government, go about and perform these terrorist actions, India goes nuts and tells Pakistan to do more against the terrorism. Meanwhile a train gets blown up in India which kills Pakistani passengers, it gets investigated and the findings of the Indian government point all the fingers to an Indian army officer. While this Indian army officer is in Jail, the official opposition (Hindu extremists) of India offers him a ticket to run for the next election. Yet the Indian government sits there and does nothing. Mainly because the Hindu extremists are in great numbers and effect the vote banks. Hence it is proven that the Indian government can't stop all of the terrorist activities on its own land. The articles from high Indian figures regarding the condemnation of the Indian slavery and Hindu extremism look great on a piece of paper but need to be backed up by some actions.

India continues to stab Pakistan's image in the world by saying that it's involved in exporting terrorism. I would ask you the following, the attackers in Mumbai have yet not to be proven to be Pakistanis, since Sept 11, just exactly how many Pakistani citizens have been involved in global terrorist atrocities? You probably don't know the answer. It's NIL. In fact, the number of Pakistani soldiers and citizens who have died for this war on terrorism is a significant one. Obviously this Pakistani contribution against the global terrorism goes about unnoticed. The baseless claims of the Indian government are effecting Pakistan's economy and its future. India through its false presentation of the situation is making Pakistan look less lucrative for investment. India has cancelled its cricket tour to Pakistan and when Sri Lanka showed the incentive to tour Pakistan it tried to muscle down Sri Lanka through lobbying. This will have great financial consequences for Pakistan and will effect its development. More and more cricket playing countries are not willing to tour Pakistan because of the baseless misinformation being spread by India. Cricket is just one industry in Pakistan. India will try to influence other countries which show interest in the other industries of Pakistan.

The youth of Pakistan understand the notion behind the propaganda war. They understand the intent of India. Most importantly they are aware of the ground facts in India. India trying to prove itself better by putting down the image of its neighbours will not work this time. We will fight back every false word pollinated by the Indian government and the Indian citizens, against Pakistan. We point out the shortcomings of the Indian society to the world because their false portrayal of Pakistan is based on the weaknesses of Pakistan. The weaknesses that Indians claim that India does not experience. Read the article listed below, you will see what Indians think of Pakistanis. Don't give me the argument that all the Indians dont think alike. The writer of this article comes on the Pakistani and Indian Channels very often and tries to prove Indian superiority over Pakistanis. He tries to feed the masses of viewers and readers in India and no Indian has stood up against him.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/?p=354

Also, the youth of Pakistan are also directing their energies working on the development of Pakistan. This site also has brain storming postings. The young people don't only identify the weaknesses of our society but also recommend the solutions. But of course your Indian employer does not pay you to post replies on such posts. The youth of Pakistan will continue to contribute to the development of Pakistan. We are a nuclear power without any "intellectual" help from any other country, unlike India. We are smart. Once this Indian drama with the Mumbai attack is over, we will come up with suggestions to improve economic and diplomatic relationships with India. We know that we cant change our neighbours. But first thing is first. Right now India is playing a role of our enemy. It's time for information war. I am not only posting these India related articles on this website but also forwarding them to the appropriate agencies in North America. 160 million of Dalits is not a small number.

Furthermore, I noticed that your employer could not provide you with any fresh material on unfortunate and unacceptable incidents that women of Pakistan have to go through. Most of your articles were linked to the incidents in 2005 or later. Did that ever make you think that may be its because such incidents are less common in Pakistan than India? For your convenience, listed below is an article regarding an unacceptable behavior against a Dalit girl in India. This happened in May 2008. I can post more recent, but unfortunately unlike you I don't get paid.

http://www.andhranews.net/India/2008/May/1-year-Dalit-girl-burnt-42946.asp


You also claimed that you have not seen a single Indian blog mentioning Indian system to be better than its neighbours. Either you are lying or you did not invest 2 minutes in doing your research. I advise you even better. Pay a visit to NDTV and ZeeTV websites. If you watch their debates then you will see how wrong you are.

Lastly, stop claiming that you are neither Pakistani or Indian. You signed off your post with Allah Hafiz. Only people with a Pakistani or Indian background say that. Have some selfesteem.

Sher Khan