Atheism shattered in one second

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#61
Because the Iron that was in the ground was not usefull as they did not have the means to smelt it yet. Thats why Iron from meteor was the only Iron the Egyptians could use before they could learn how to smelt iron ore themselves.

This claim of yours is not irrelevant.
Your claim that they got if from Egyptians, however, is not credible. Because unlike the Egyptians the Arabs had been mining iron for thousands of years. Their iron was abundantly underground. Why would they go out of their way to describe the few drops of meteorite iron Egyptians found over the abundantly available iron they knew was underground. Claiming that iron which was underground was sent down was counterintuitive.
I am talking about 4000 BC... No one was mining Iron ore at that time, even the most advanced civilizations were still in Bronze Age and the only Iron available was from meteors.

There is no point to this conversation. You asked if anyone know Iron came from meteors before Quran, the answer is yes.
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#62
Because the Iron that was in the ground was not usefull as they did not have the means to smelt it yet. Thats why Iron from meteor was the only Iron the Egyptians could use before they could learn how to smelt iron ore themselves.



I am talking about 4000 BC... No one was mining Iron ore at that time, even the most advanced civilizations were still in Bronze Age and the only Iron available was from meteors.

There is no point to this conversation. You asked if anyone know Iron came from meteors before Quran, the answer is yes.
Why are you running away? you claimed the Shang dynasty and Babylonians had KNOWLEDGE of it coming from the sky. I am just asking for your source. Making something that turns out to be from meteoritic iron, is not the same as having knowledge that it came from the sky.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#63
Running away from what? You can research on it on your own but Shang Dynasty and Babylon is irrelavent.

You claimed that no one knew that Iron came from meteors before Quran. I showed you that iron from meteors played an important part in Early Egyptian society, it was a symbol for them thousands of years before Quran.

I don't know why you are still wasting my time, your argument is a lost cause and its starting to feel very desperate now.

To the ancient Egyptians, iron was known as the “metal of heaven,” says the University College London. “In the hieroglyphic language of the ancient Egyptians it was pronounced ba-en-pet, meaning either stone or metal of Heaven.” For thousands of years before they learned to smelt iron ore, Egyptians were crafting beads and trinkets from it, harvesting the metal from fallen meteorites. The rarity of the metal gave it a special place in Egyptian society, says Nature: “Iron was very strongly associated with royalty and power.”


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...cause-they-harvested-fallen-meteors-86153874/

Meteorite studies in Ancient China:
Confucious made detailed accounts of observations of meteors falling on Earth and the contents/composition of the debris found on the ground. This is over 1000 years before Quran.
This is not something unusual, ancient people took great interest in the sky and studied it kept record of it for thousands of years before Quran.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..864Y


Why are you running away? you claimed the Shang dynasty and Babylonians had KNOWLEDGE of it coming from the sky. I am just asking for your source. Making something that turns out to be from meteoritic iron, is not the same as having knowledge that it came from the sky.
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#65
Its not my argument, it was your argument that no one knew that Iron came from meteors before Quran and I showed you that this is not the case. Just stop.

So your argument is that whatever you say is irrelevant, and should not be taken seriously?
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#67
No, I was responding to your argument that no one knew where meteoric iron came from before Quran. I only need to show you one example to refute your argument. The other examples are just extras and not necessary to refute your argument.


Is this your argument?
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#68
No, I was responding to your argument that no one knew where meteoric iron came from before Quran. I only need to show you one example to refute your argument. The other examples are just extras and not necessary to refute your argument.
Being extras is not the issue you, wrote down false information to bolster your argument. False because you can't substantiate it. Is it a habit of yours to lie and deceive people like this? I guess for an atheist there is no such thing as morals.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#69
Why would I lie about it if I only need Egypt to refute your argument? I do not go into detail about it because it is irrelevant for refuting your argument.

Studies of Meteoric Iron in ancient China:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..864Y

In Egypt:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...cause-they-harvested-fallen-meteors-86153874/

In Turkey, Syria and Shang Dynasty:
https://hal.sorbonne-universite.fr/hal-01614724/file/Jambon_Bronze_Age_iron.pdf

In Babylon and Mesopotamia:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=P_Ixuott4doC&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=meteoric+iron+in+babylon&source=bl&ots=byCyE8H_QL&sig=36tH6ayAQ43R_t9ujK5u3HEcyck&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4vOGswujfAhWHg1QKHSsbCIMQ6AEwDXoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=meteoric iron in babylon&f=false

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1973Metic...8...91B

Being extras is not the issue you, wrote down false information to bolster your argument. False because you can't substantiate it. Is it a habit of yours to lie and deceive people like this? I guess for an atheist there is no such thing as morals.
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#70
- China study is a general meteorite study and human casualties and has nothing to do with the people knowing that all iron arrived from the sky
- The Turkey, Syria, and Shang dynasty study, is a chemical composition analysis of materials and has nothing to do with the people knowing that all iron arrived from the sky
- The Babylon study you linked to says there is not conclusive evidence of them referring to iron from the sky

There is the main point here The Holy Quran does not differentiate, it says all iron is sent down. Can you give any reference to any people claiming even the underground iron was from the sky? The Babylon and Egypt studies understood the difference between earth and sky iron but never does any of your links claim that they considered all iron from the sky
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#71
Egypt:
1. Iron was a metal of mythical character. It was called the 'metal of heaven', because Egyptians knew it mainly from meteoric iron. Iron deposits in Egypt were not worked before the Late or Greco-Roman periods.The earliest iron smelting places in Egypt were found at Naukratis and Defenna. Early iron comes highly likely from meteoric iron. Iron production requires temperatures from 1100-1150 ºC (the same as for copper smelting). Iron objects appear very sporadically since Naqada III in Egypt. In Egypt iron comes into common usage only from about 500 BC. The normal way to treat iron is to hammer it. Cast iron was not common.
Metal in Egypt
Digital Egypt for Universities, University College London

2. Certainly the ancient Egyptians were aware of meteoritic iron, but uncomfortably for the archaeologists, the evidence suggests that by a very early date in their history they were already sophisticated enough to differentiate between different types of iron. Loadstones were called `res mehit ba', meaning `north-south iron', and Plutarch quotes Manetho as differentiating loadstones from non-magnetic iron, calling the former `Bone of Osiris', and the latter `Bone of Typhon', (being the Greek version of Set).3
Robert H O'Connell in 1983 translated the coffin text Spell 148, which refers to meteoritic impact as being integral to the conception of Horus. `…the blast of a meteorite such that gods fear, Isis awoke pregnant by the seed of her brother Osiris!….5 Even earlier, in 1911, Wallis Budge translated a text from the time of Pepi II (circa 2278- 2184 BC) which speaks of `the iron which came from Set, and was in the forearm of Set; it transferred to the deceased the power of the eye of Horus'.6 As the constellation of the Great Bear was considered to be the abode of Set, we can reasonably conclude that at least one iron-bearing meteorite came from this direction early in the Old Kingdom. And if we were to conclude that the ascension of Horus came about during the unification of the two lands, we would be able to postulate that this unification came about during a period of meteoritic activity.

The evidence then, seems to support the notion that the ancient Egyptians were aware of iron, and probably viewed it as a heavenly substance.
The Use and Presence of Iron in the Egyptian Old Kingdom
Keith Squires, Gizagrid, 2005

Babylon:
The Egyptians called iron 'the metal of heaven' or ba-en-pet, which indicates that the first specimen employed were of meteoric origin; the Babylonian name having the same meaning. It was no doubt on account of its rarity that iron was prized so highly by the early Egyptians, while its celestial source would have its fascination.
Ancient Egyptian Science
Prof. Hamed A. Ead, Tour Egypt

Mesopotamia:
The supreme god Anu personified a planet which had exploded; hence the fact that his name meant ‘Heaven’, and hence the fact that meteoritic iron was known in Sumer as ‘the essence of Anu’.
A Message to Zecharia Sitchin Fans
Alan F. Alford, Eridu Books, 2004

There is the main point here The Holy Quran does not differentiate here, it says all iron is sent down. Can you give any reference to any people claiming even the underground iron was from the sky?
The Ancient Egyptians still have the same word for Iron as for meteoric Iron. Aka Metal of the Heavens.

Also, when Quran says "Sent Down", it doesnt mean literally sent down from the sky. It means given to mankind as a benefit. Because the Quran uses the exact same word to say Allah sent down cattle, food, sunlight, Quran, Sleepiness etc. Non of which comes from meteors.
 
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Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#72
Egypt:
1. Iron was a metal of mythical character. It was called the 'metal of heaven', because Egyptians knew it mainly from meteoric iron. Iron deposits in Egypt were not worked before the Late or Greco-Roman periods.The earliest iron smelting places in Egypt were found at Naukratis and Defenna. Early iron comes highly likely from meteoric iron. Iron production requires temperatures from 1100-1150 ºC (the same as for copper smelting). Iron objects appear very sporadically since Naqada III in Egypt. In Egypt iron comes into common usage only from about 500 BC. The normal way to treat iron is to hammer it. Cast iron was not common.
Metal in Egypt
Digital Egypt for Universities, University College London

2. Certainly the ancient Egyptians were aware of meteoritic iron, but uncomfortably for the archaeologists, the evidence suggests that by a very early date in their history they were already sophisticated enough to differentiate between different types of iron. Loadstones were called `res mehit ba', meaning `north-south iron', and Plutarch quotes Manetho as differentiating loadstones from non-magnetic iron, calling the former `Bone of Osiris', and the latter `Bone of Typhon', (being the Greek version of Set).3
Robert H O'Connell in 1983 translated the coffin text Spell 148, which refers to meteoritic impact as being integral to the conception of Horus. `…the blast of a meteorite such that gods fear, Isis awoke pregnant by the seed of her brother Osiris!….5 Even earlier, in 1911, Wallis Budge translated a text from the time of Pepi II (circa 2278- 2184 BC) which speaks of `the iron which came from Set, and was in the forearm of Set; it transferred to the deceased the power of the eye of Horus'.6 As the constellation of the Great Bear was considered to be the abode of Set, we can reasonably conclude that at least one iron-bearing meteorite came from this direction early in the Old Kingdom. And if we were to conclude that the ascension of Horus came about during the unification of the two lands, we would be able to postulate that this unification came about during a period of meteoritic activity.

The evidence then, seems to support the notion that the ancient Egyptians were aware of iron, and probably viewed it as a heavenly substance.
The Use and Presence of Iron in the Egyptian Old Kingdom
Keith Squires, Gizagrid, 2005

Babylon:
The Egyptians called iron 'the metal of heaven' or ba-en-pet, which indicates that the first specimen employed were of meteoric origin; the Babylonian name having the same meaning. It was no doubt on account of its rarity that iron was prized so highly by the early Egyptians, while its celestial source would have its fascination.
Ancient Egyptian Science
Prof. Hamed A. Ead, Tour Egypt

Mesopotamia:
The supreme god Anu personified a planet which had exploded; hence the fact that his name meant ‘Heaven’, and hence the fact that meteoritic iron was known in Sumer as ‘the essence of Anu’.
A Message to Zecharia Sitchin Fans
Alan F. Alford, Eridu Books, 2004



The Ancient Egyptians still have the same word for Iron as for meteoric Iron. Aka Metal of the Heavens.

Also, when Quran says "Sent Down", it doesnt mean literally sent down from the sky. It means given to mankind as a benefit. Because the Quran uses the exact same word to say Allah sent down cattle, food, sunlight, Quran, Sleepiness etc. Non of which comes from meteors.
do you even read my posts?
1. making or knowing iron from the sky, does not automatically lead us to believe that they believed all iron is from the sky.
2. Would you hit a cricket ball with a nocturnal flying mammal or a wood stick, both are called bat
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#73
do you even read my posts?
1. making or knowing iron from the sky, does not automatically lead us to believe that they believed all iron is from the sky.
It also does not automatically lead us to believe that they did not believe all iron is from the sky. The ancient Egyptians have the same word for Iron as meteoric Iron. That could mean that they believed all Iron came from the Sky.

Quran on the other hand is vague on this. As the word used for sent down, does not necessarily mean it was literally sent down from the sky, it means it was given to mankind as a benefit.
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#74
The ancient Egyptians have the same word for Iron as meteoric Iron.
No, the ancient Egyptians did not have the same word for Iron as meteoric Iron. How do we know this? because you told us:
They called Iron 'Be-en-pet', meaning Ore of the Sky, or metal of the heavens.
Certainly the ancient Egyptians were aware of meteoritic iron, but uncomfortably for the archaeologists, the evidence suggests that by a very early date in their history they were already sophisticated enough to differentiate between different types of iron. Loadstones were called `res mehit ba', meaning `north-south iron'
So clearly they did not believe all iron was from the sky. Yet The Holy Quran states that all iron was sent down.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#75
Res Mehit Ba is not talking about meteoric or non meteoric iron. It refers to magnets. Which basically translates to north south Iron. And the Iron translates the metal from the heavens.

No, the ancient Egyptians did not have the same word for Iron as meteoric Iron. How do we know this? because you told us:


So clearly they did not believe all iron was from the sky. Yet The Holy Quran states that all iron was sent down.
 
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Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
#76
The Ancient Egyptians still have the same word for Iron as for meteoric Iron. Aka Metal of the Heavens.
The ancient Egyptians have the same word for Iron as meteoric Iron.
Egyptians have a different word for magnetic iron.
1. You give false references
2. You make up false stories along the way to fit your narrative when your lies are exposed.
The experts you quoted said they knew the difference. Nowhere do they say it was all the same.
The Holy Quran is not vague, the truth is clear. I chose to believe The Holy Quran, and I pray to Allah tala that you are guided to the true path. Ameen.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#77
Res Mehit Ba is not talking about meteoric or non meteoric iron. It refers to magnets. Which basically translates to north south Iron. And the Iron translates the metal from the heavens.


1. You give false references
2. You make up false stories along the way to fit your narrative when your lies are exposed.
The experts you quoted said they knew the difference. Nowhere do they say it was all the same.
The Holy Quran is not vague, the truth is clear. I chose to believe The Holy Quran, and I pray to Allah tala that you are guided to the true path. Ameen.
 

Steyn

Senator (1k+ posts)
#78
So your argument is that whatever you say is irrelevant, and should not be taken seriously?
This is a pretty common theme with him. He makes shit up and when someone calls him out on it, he throws a red herring and runs away from the main argument. In another thread, he was using words like "redundant genetic diseases" and "living amino acids". I was like this guy is wise beyond our age because science today doesn't know amino acids are living and what is a redundant genetic disease hahaa.

Quite hilarious how he now calls his own comments irrelevant.

Also love how what this thread was about, atheists calling out to God in times of great distress and he has nothing to say about that. There is no higher power - atheist, yet the same atheist calling out to a higher power. Why not to Charles Dawkins, the hero of atheists? Why not just shut up and be calm?

Just pathetic and shows how much of hypocrites these atheists are. In their heart they know there is a God but it conflicts with their lifestyle.

Ina lilalah waina ilayhi rajeoon.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
#80
His main argument was that Quran is the only source of the information that Iron comes from asteroids.

I only need to show one civilizations ie. The Egyptians to disprove his argument. Other civilizations are irrelevent to the discussion as I do not need them.

Its the same thing as someone saying that only cats are felines. I only need to prove to him that lions are felines too. Talking about tigers and cougars at this point is irrelevant to the discussion.

I provided those examples as extra information but it was not needed for the scope of the argument. The only reason why he wanted to keep arguing about it is not because of his main argument (he had none at this point) but to try in desperation and poke holes, say that I am a liar or dishonest. None of which is true as I provided all references. Then hes trying to poke holes in the sources. Just remember that none of those sources had anything to do with the argument (they were just unnecessary extras) as it (the argument) was already lost when I showed him Egypt had known of meteoric irons.

Then he threw a tantrum over Egyptians having a different name for magnets. This is just pathetic and a waste of time and you have to agree here. If you do not have an argument anymore, have the humility to concede rather than be uptight and waste everyone else's time.



This is a pretty common theme with him. He makes shit up and when someone calls him out on it, he throws a red herring and runs away from the main argument. In another thread, he was using words like "redundant genetic diseases" and "living amino acids". I was like this guy is wise beyond our age because science today doesn't know amino acids are living and what is a redundant genetic disease hahaa.

Quite hilarious how he now calls his own comments irrelevant.

Also love how what this thread was about, atheists calling out to God in times of great distress and he has nothing to say about that. There is no higher power - atheist, yet the same atheist calling out to a higher power. Why not to Charles Dawkins, the hero of atheists? Why not just shut up and be calm?

Just pathetic and shows how much of hypocrites these atheists are. In their heart they know there is a God but it conflicts with their lifestyle.

Ina lilalah waina ilayhi rajeoon.
 
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