Atheism shattered in one second

Steyn

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Have you ever heard of the word Polytheism?

That's irrelevant. You want to give the impression that it's hard to know which is the right religion when it's not. Look at all the major religions, they all have monotheism and similarities to Islam but eventually being corrupted by men. I showed you even Hinduism which is a major pegan religion has monotheism in it, shocked me as well when I read about it and what Hindus really think.

You can bring me the spaghetti mock religion but I think you're not that stupid to think mock religions like that are even worth discussing.
 

Steyn

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
No you haven't... I asked you to send me original Tafsirs that say that there 3 meanings of the word Alaqa... I am still waiting for your response...

You cannot take a translation from 21st century and then claim that this is what the Quran was saying 1400 years ago... Its blatantly dishonest.

You really don't understand Quran at all. The Holy Quran is for until Qayamat and the tafsirs will change when it concerns the verses that are open to interpretation and especially concerning that which we have no or very little knowledge of ie science and astronomy etc. Nowhere in Islam has it been made mandatory that ibn kathir tafsir is what would be followed into eternity. Neither does ibn kathir (ra) ever claimed such thing.

You obviously have to reject this otherwise you're out of explanations and have to accept Islam.

Even still, you forcefully want to have a specific understanding of the verses contrary to established understanding of the Muslim ummah.

To which I say fine. Do what the Holy Quran challenges you. Why doesn't anyone try to do that to an old 7th century book?

They have found all kinds of fallacies in Bible, why not Holy Quran? The challenge should've been the first to prove it wrong.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So you are claiming that polytheism doesn't exist?

That's irrelevant. You want to give the impression that it's hard to know which is the right religion when it's not. Look at all the major religions, they all have monotheism and similarities to Islam but eventually being corrupted by men. I showed you even Hinduism which is a major pegan religion has monotheism in it, shocked me as well when I read about it and what Hindus really think.

You can bring me the spaghetti mock religion but I think you're not that stupid to think mock religions like that are even worth discussing.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So Muslims claim that Quran is the unchanging word of God... But if you are changing translations of the Quran you are in effect, changing what the Quran is saying. Its a contradiction...

It also means that the beliefs you have today are completely different from the beliefs Muhammad and his followers had 1400 years ago. In which case we have nothing to argue about because you do not follow the same religion as Muhammad did...

When Muhammad said the Holy Quran is for until Qayamat, it means that the word in its original form and meaning. If you change the meanings from what they meant 1400 years ago you are tampering with the Quran in the same way in which the Bible and the Torah was tampered with. It means you are not following the same religion.

It also means that you cannot use the new translations to claim that Quran contains scientific knowledge from 1400 years ago... Because those new meanings are influenced by new scientific findings.

You really don't understand Quran at all. The Holy Quran is for until Qayamat and the tafsirs will change when it concerns the verses that are open to interpretation and especially concerning that which we have no or very little knowledge of ie science and astronomy etc. Nowhere in Islam has it been made mandatory that ibn kathir tafsir is what would be followed into eternity. Neither does ibn kathir (ra) ever claimed such thing.

You obviously have to reject this otherwise you're out of explanations and have to accept Islam.

Even still, you forcefully want to have a specific understanding of the verses contrary to established understanding of the Muslim ummah.

To which I say fine. Do what the Holy Quran challenges you. Why doesn't anyone try to do that to an old 7th century book?

They have found all kinds of fallacies in Bible, why not Holy Quran? The challenge should've been the first to prove it wrong.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So from what I gathered:

1) It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies

2) It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime

3) It must literary be perfect

4) It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis

5) It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it

6) Must be historically accurate

7) Must be accurate with scientifically proven facts


From the parallel arguments we are having about Science in Quran, I do not think that we are at an agreement about the Quran meeting any of the above 7 criteria.

It's not subjective. See, when you close your ears and yell la la la then how would you understand anything. It's very simple and very objectively measurable. Do what the Holy Quran has done ie imitate it or copy it if you can. In today's age, it should be easy right.

Several Arab and Persian poets of repute are recorded in authentic tradition to have tried to imitate Quran in prose or poetry

I will give you only two examples representing extreme ends of the spectrum of Quran Imitators

TOMFOOLERY : One Arab poet shortly after Prophet conquered Makkah or after his passing claimed he had made ten verses like the holy Quran. Not only that, that he received divine revelations like the Quran. This is translation of only two of his verses. He tried to fulfill the linguistic bars and this is the meaning he got: 1- “O he frog! And O she frog! 2- Neither are you completely aquatic, nor dweller of land…!”

HARDWORD : The latest attempt is in form of “Al Furqan” mentioned in answer before mine. Al Furqan is unable to meet even 10% of the criteria that Quran poses and is full of historic fallacies.

I will start with a list of linguistic criteria that any spoken or written word needs to meet, merely to come close to the Noble Quran:

It must not be from the sixteen Al-Bihar (literally "Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): At-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Waafir, al-Kaamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafeef, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madeed, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook

It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)

It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies

It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime

It must literary be perfect

It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)

It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis

It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)

It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it

It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution

Three furthur criteria’s have been stated in the following verses by God Almighty himself: “.We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (God).” (Quran 24:34) i.e it must make things clear, must illustrate stories about the people passed away, and be an admonition for those who fear God

Must be historically accurate

Must be accurate with scientifically proven facts

Allah says also "….It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!" (Quran 41 44). So it must be a guide to those that believe

“This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God; 3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;” (Quran 2:2). It must guide those who fear God, believe in the unseen, are steadfast in prayer, spend out of what is provided for them. Anyone can guide the Fools!!!understand

It's amazing to me that people still reject it despite the obvious divine nature of it.

Oh i almost forgot, it must also have mathematically coordinated verses that if one word is misplaced, the whole book and surah lose its mathematical coordination. You didn't know that, did you? Alter one word of Holy Quran and all the mathematical counting and balance shatters which gives proof to it being unedited and uncorruptable.
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
Quran only contains things that you would expect from 7th century Arabs...
Could the Arabs (or any other people) in the 7th century know that the iron found on earth could not have been formed on earth but came down from the sky?
 
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Steyn

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So Muslims claim that Quran is the unchanging word of God... But if you are changing translations of the Quran you are in effect, changing what the Quran is saying. Its a contradiction...

It also means that the beliefs you have today are completely different from the beliefs Muhammad and his followers had 1400 years ago. In which case we have nothing to argue about because you do not follow the same religion as Muhammad did...

When Muhammad said the Holy Quran is for until Qayamat, it means that the word in its original form and meaning. If you change the meanings from what they meant 1400 years ago you are tampering with the Quran in the same way in which the Bible and the Torah was tampered with. It means you are not following the same religion.

It also means that you cannot use the new translations to claim that Quran contains scientific knowledge from 1400 years ago... Because those new meanings are influenced by new scientific findings.

Statements like these truly show your ignorance of the quran or perhaps your dishonesty. You're making quite a jump there, aren't ya? From changing the understanding of a word or verse to EDITING Or altering the Holy Quran which no Muslim can do.

I'll give you a few examples of what i meant - I should have done that but I keep forgetting you're really ignorant (you claimed to have extensive knowledge so I believed you but maybe I shouldn't have).

The verses about embryology - the people at before recent times understood it as a leech like substance, a hanging thing but they couldn't see it obviously and so their understanding was not like ours. Today, we can actually see the it with microscopes and confirm that it looks like exactly like a leech.

The verses about what Navash said - Muslims believed and understood that iron came from sky. Now we know with scientific proof that that is the case and our understanding is far better.

The verses about black holes - people at the time believed it's talking about astronomy but their understanding was unlike ours. Now we know black holes and understand what the Holy Quran is talking about.

I could go on.

How is it changing the Holy Quran? There are verses in Holy Quran that talk about astronomy that we aren't sure about because our knowledge is limited. Our future generations will have a better understanding of that as their knowledge improves.

I am getting bored quite frankly by your acting dumb to prove some point. If you're really this dumb then there's no point in me arguing.

Can't believe you exaggerated to altering the Holy Quran. What the?
 

Steyn

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So from what I gathered:

1) It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies

2) It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime

3) It must literary be perfect

4) It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis

5) It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it

6) Must be historically accurate

7) Must be accurate with scientifically proven facts


From the parallel arguments we are having about Science in Quran, I do not think that we are at an agreement about the Quran meeting any of the above 7 criteria.

So? That means jackshit.

I could say Shakespearean poetry is a streaming pile of diarrhea I have after eating some Mexican tacos but it does not mean anything as its established to be quite the opposite.

The Holy Quran is established to be a book unlike we have ever seen and its established to be that by Muslims and non Muslims alike and it has been that way for centuries.

You're disagreement is quite meaningless especially because you've failed to provide anything substantial and have only provided lies.
 

NasNY

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So? That means jackshit.

I could say Shakespearean poetry is a streaming pile of diarrhea I have after eating some Mexican tacos but it does not mean anything as its established to be quite the opposite.

The Holy Quran is established to be a book unlike we have ever seen and its established to be that by Muslims and non Muslims alike and it has been that way for centuries.

You're disagreement is quite meaningless especially because you've failed to provide anything substantial and have only provided lies.

Don't bother arguing with a Rock for brains, he has no concept what he is arguing about, his argument s are so unhinged from reality.

He jumps from topic to a different topic because he has no foundation of understanding of concept of science or Theology, he doesn't even know what atheism is.

Even atheism believes there is a possibility of God which cannot be ruled out.
He will never pickup any book or gain knowledge about any subject. because he thinks he knows everything.

here are some words of wisdom.

V3eZqtE.jpg


never-argue-with-stupid-people-mark-twain.jpg


attraction-lifes-too-short-to-argue-with-stupid-people-%3C3-5572283.png
6e9a0e280dc4da7ba07be3ba5b07c674--chess-funny-shit.jpg
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Yes... Egyptians knew about it more than 3,500 years before Quran. They called Iron 'Be-en-pet', meaning Ore of the Sky, or metal of the heavens. Also 1,000 years before Quran they could also differentiate between magnetic and non magnetic iron.

It was also discovered by many other civilizations from China's Shang Dynasty to Babylon, thousands of years before Quran.

Also the word that Quran used for "sent down" is mentioned 88 times in Quran usually for things like rain, cattle and food. Does it mean that cows also come from meteors?


Could the Arabs (or any other people) in the 7th century know that the iron found on earth could not have been formed on earth but came down from the sky?
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Posting memes wont make your lost argument any more convincing...

Don't bother arguing with a Rock for brains, he has no concept what he is arguing about, his argument s are so unhinged from reality.

He jumps from topic to a different topic because he has no foundation of understanding of concept of science or Theology, he doesn't even know what atheism is.

Even atheism believes there is a possibility of God which cannot be ruled out.
He will never pickup any book or gain knowledge about any subject. because he thinks he knows everything.

here are some words of wisdom.

V3eZqtE.jpg


never-argue-with-stupid-people-mark-twain.jpg


attraction-lifes-too-short-to-argue-with-stupid-people-%3C3-5572283.png
6e9a0e280dc4da7ba07be3ba5b07c674--chess-funny-shit.jpg
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Christians also established that Bible is a book unlike any. The Mormons say the same thing about the book of mormons, so does Rowling about Harry Potter. Its not an argument to prove anything, lest a creator of 100 billion galaxies. This argument is so pitiful.

So? That means jackshit.

I could say Shakespearean poetry is a streaming pile of diarrhea I have after eating some Mexican tacos but it does not mean anything as its established to be quite the opposite.

The Holy Quran is established to be a book unlike we have ever seen and its established to be that by Muslims and non Muslims alike and it has been that way for centuries.

You're disagreement is quite meaningless especially because you've failed to provide anything substantial and have only provided lies.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Well people know where Iron came from 3,500 years before Quran.

If Quran says we created the universe as an expanse (meaning vaste).

Then 1400 years later you discover big-bang and expanding universe. And then you conveniently change the meaning of expanse into (we are expanding it). You are in effect editing what the Quran was originally saying into something else.

The same thing exists in other religions text as-well such as Gita, they also say universe is an expanse and in this way everyone else can also change the meaning of their Sanskrit/ Hebrew/ Arabic words to mean something totally different influenced by recent scientific discoveries... Do you see what the problem is here? You are not proving anything by changing translations.

Statements like these truly show your ignorance of the quran or perhaps your dishonesty. You're making quite a jump there, aren't ya? From changing the understanding of a word or verse to EDITING Or altering the Holy Quran which no Muslim can do.

I'll give you a few examples of what i meant - I should have done that but I keep forgetting you're really ignorant (you claimed to have extensive knowledge so I believed you but maybe I shouldn't have).

The verses about embryology - the people at before recent times understood it as a leech like substance, a hanging thing but they couldn't see it obviously and so their understanding was not like ours. Today, we can actually see the it with microscopes and confirm that it looks like exactly like a leech.

The verses about what Navash said - Muslims believed and understood that iron came from sky. Now we know with scientific proof that that is the case and our understanding is far better.

The verses about black holes - people at the time believed it's talking about astronomy but their understanding was unlike ours. Now we know black holes and understand what the Holy Quran is talking about.

I could go on.

How is it changing the Holy Quran? There are verses in Holy Quran that talk about astronomy that we aren't sure about because our knowledge is limited. Our future generations will have a better understanding of that as their knowledge improves.

I am getting bored quite frankly by your acting dumb to prove some point. If you're really this dumb then there's no point in me arguing.

Can't believe you exaggerated to altering the Holy Quran. What the?
 

Steyn

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Christians also established that Bible is a book unlike any. The Mormons say the same thing about the book of mormons, so does Rowling about Harry Potter. Its not an argument to prove anything, lest a creator of 100 billion galaxies. This argument is so pitiful.

Fair enough. There is no book or anything in this world that holds any merit.

I'll waste my time arguing with someone who doesn't lie to my face and acts like a retarded child to make his points.

May Allah guide us all.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Well forgive me for pointing out the obvious. You are making an extra-ordinary claim and providing underwhelming supporting arguments.

But I am just speculating that, if a God indeed exists, and he/she/it wants to communicate to us, a book will be the least likely method he uses. I would assume he would be slightly more creative than mere mortals. The Question I would ask him is, why go to this extent to hide yourself and underhandedly plant evidence all over the universe to show that the universe has natural origins.

Fair enough. There is no book or anything in this world that holds any merit.

I'll waste my time arguing with someone who doesn't lie to my face and acts like a retarded child to make his points.

May Allah guide us all.
 

بگ باس

MPA (400+ posts)
ایک منٹ کے کلپ پہ دہریوں کو اتنی آگ لگ گئی کہ اپنے سارے کام چھوڑ کے تھریڈ کے دوالے ہو گئے

ہم تو سارا حساب کتاب آخرت جنت اور دوزخ کے مطابق کرتے ہیں اور باقی رہی دہریوں کی سائنس تو وہ ایسی کی تیسی میں وڑتی پھرتی
 

Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
Yes... Egyptians knew about it more than 3,500 years before Quran. They called Iron 'Be-en-pet', meaning Ore of the Sky, or metal of the heavens. Also 1,000 years before Quran they could also differentiate between magnetic and non magnetic iron.

It was also discovered by many other civilizations from China's Shang Dynasty to Babylon, thousands of years before Quran.

Also the word that Quran used for "sent down" is mentioned 88 times in Quran usually for things like rain, cattle and food. Does it mean that cows also come from meteors?

1. I need a reference on Shang dynasty and the Babylonians, I read they made stuff out of meteoritic iron but can't find any reference to them knowing it was from outer space.
2. The phenomenon you are referring to is called homonyms. One word having multiple meaning. You find it in all languages, as in any language you have to look at the context to discern the correct meaning. You wouldn't try to hit a cricket ball with a nocturnal flying mammal, would you?
3. Even if The Egyptians did know, the question then becomes how could the Arabs differentiate between this piece of knowledge and all the erroneous beliefs of the Egyptians? I don't see Arab kings buried in Pyramids in Arabia. This is proof that The Holy Quran is a divine revelation
4. Another reason that it is divine revelation is that in the same ayah it says that within iron lies great strength. Iron rusts and bends easily, why would the Arabs claim iron had great strength? How could they know that iron has the strongest bound nucleus among all elements?
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You asked if anyone else knew about Iron coming from meteors before Quran.

Answer: Yes the Egyptians knew it 3,500 years before Quran. Egyptians were late to discover Iron deposits so their Iron during early times mostly came from meteors.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/metal/metalinegypt.html

Rest is irrelevant.

Meteor Iron in Shang Dynasty:
https://hal.sorbonne-universite.fr/hal-01614724/file/Jambon_Bronze_Age_iron.pdf


Since humans did not have the ability to smelt Iron, almost every early civilization got their iron from meteors, especially during the Bronze Age. This was common knowledge.

1. I need a reference on Shang dynasty and the Babylonians, I read they made stuff out of meteoritic iron but can't find any reference to them knowing it was from outer space.
2. The phenomenon you are referring to is called homonyms. One word having multiple meaning. You find it in all languages, as in any language you have to look at the context to discern the correct meaning. You wouldn't try to hit a cricket ball with a nocturnal flying mammal, would you?
3. Even if The Egyptians did know, the question then becomes how could the Arabs differentiate between this piece of knowledge and all the erroneous beliefs of the Egyptians? I don't see Arab kings buried in Pyramids in Arabia. This is proof that The Holy Quran is a divine revelation
4. Another reason that it is divine revelation is that in the same ayah it says that within iron lies great strength. Iron rusts and bends easily, why would the Arabs claim iron had great strength? How could they know that iron has the strongest bound nucleus among all elements?
 
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Navash

Senator (1k+ posts)
You asked if anyone else knew about Iron coming from meteors before Quran.

Answer: Yes the Egyptians knew it 3,500 years before Quran. Egyptians were late to discover Iron deposits so their Iron during early times mostly came from meteors.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/metal/metalinegypt.html

Rest is irrelevant.
This claim of yours is not irrelevant.

It was also discovered by many other civilizations from China's Shang Dynasty to Babylon, thousands of years before Quran.

Your claim that they got if from Egyptians, however, is not credible. Because unlike the Egyptians the Arabs had been mining iron for thousands of years. Their iron was abundantly underground. Why would they go out of their way to describe the few drops of meteorite iron Egyptians found over the abundantly available iron they knew was underground? Claiming that iron which was underground was sent down was counterintuitive. The only explanation is that this was a divine revelation.
 
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