سود پر قرضہ دینے سے ریاست مدینہ کا آغاز نہیں ہو سکتا

[Saboo]

No Okara, you have mixed up the issues.

The thread talks about Why the Islamic Republic of Pakistan gives loans to people on Interest when it calls it Riasat-e-Madina and you have given example where you are proving the government can only build the infrastructure by collecting funds that are only available on Interest.



The issue is not paying Interest but collecting Interest.

The government of Pakistan is under obligation to pay interest when they borrow money but there is no obligation to pay out money to the needy on Interest.

You are right the government does not have many options when they borrow money.

BUT the issue here is not borrowing money but lending money.

Why the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is collecting Interest from its needy people.
What is the compulsion?

If it is not possible to give out loans without interest then don't give loans.

Even if the government is doing something which is Haram, then at least the government must not call itself a Riasat-e-Medina.

This is the whole point.

Imagine a new Islamic Bank opens tomorrow with the name "Islamic Banking " with the slogan " We only follow Prophet Muhammad Sunna and Quran " and that bank specifically tells us that we don't hide and we practice Ribah.

then how would you feel?

You would tell the bank if you want to do Banking with Ribah like National Bank, Habib Bank etc, then at least don't call yourself an Islamic bank. This is our request to the current Pakistani government, if you are practicing Ribbah where you had the power not to practice then, go ahead do it, But please don't fool us by calling it Riasat-e-Medina.

Finally, there are countries that offer Interest-free loans to their poor people.

See this link to an Australian government website. Australia gives interest-free loans to the people who need money desperately. Why can't Pakistan do that? What Australia is doing is more Islamic than what the Pakistan government is doing with Riba for their needy.

No interest loans - Moneysmart.gov.au

Need money quickly or have a bad credit score? No interest loans have affordable repayments, and no fees or charges.

moneysmart.gov.au

I hope now you understand the point that calling Riasat-e-Medina is a sham to fool Pakistani people.

Well you saying that borrowing money on interest is not an issue but lending money on interest is…..But in my opinion, borrowing or lending money on interest, both are haraam…Right?

 

[Modest]

Let’s be clear what Riyasat e Madina is in the context of IK. He has mentioned a million times that what he means is a “falahi” riyasat. A nation that care of its people, especially the downtrodden. Not a riyasat where all people pray 5 times a day, wear high shalwaar, have a 4 inch beard,…

Itni simple baat Patwari dangaro aur baqi kuch stupid loago ko samajh nahi aati.

 

[knowledge88]

Well you saying that borrowing money on interest is not an issue but lending money on interest is…..But in my opinion, borrowing or lending money on interest, both are haraam…Right?

No according to Ghamdi Sahab, if you don't have a choice like prev government had already taken the loans, what could you do ? But starting a contract where you are collecting Riba from poor people is not acceptable.

 

[Modest]

So it is more like Western World, like Australia, England, Switzerland etc which are welfare states. These are the nations which care for poor people. They give money to the people who lose their jobs, who are unemployed, they pay money to the people who are disabled. And they don't force any religion on them, then why call the Riasat-e-Medina model? Why not Riasat-e-Switzerland model? Wouldn't that be more accurate?

Kyunke Islami falahi riyasat ka concept sab se pehle prophet SAW ne Madina may diya tha, jis ko hum ne tou kabhi adopt nahi kiya lekin goro ne world war 2 k baad adopt kar liya.

 

[Saboo]

No according to Ghamdi Sahab, if you don't have a choice like prev government had already taken the loans, what could you do ? But starting a contract where you are collecting Riba from poor people is not acceptable.

Now who the hell is Ghamdi sahib to change and allow to borrow money on interest when it is not permissible?

 

[pinionated]

So it is more like Western World, like Australia, England, Switzerland etc which are welfare states. These are the nations which care for poor people. They give money to the people who lose their jobs, who are unemployed, they pay money to the people who are disabled. And they don't force any religion on them, then why call the Riasat-e-Medina model? Why not Riasat-e-Switzerland model? Wouldn't that be more accurate?

Because if u don’t call it Riyasat e Madina, our people will say, we don’t want to adopt kafir system… if u look at the theme of IK messages, it’s all about finding relatable heroes and historic events for us as Pakistanis and Muslims

 

[Okara]

No Okara, you have mixed up the issues.

The thread talks about Why the Islamic Republic of Pakistan gives loans to people on Interest when it calls it Riasat-e-Madina and you have given example where you are proving the government can only build the infrastructure by collecting funds that are only available on Interest.



The issue is not paying Interest but collecting Interest.

The government of Pakistan is under obligation to pay interest when they borrow money but there is no obligation to pay out money to the needy on Interest.

You are right the government does not have many options when they borrow money.

BUT the issue here is not borrowing money but lending money.

Why the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is collecting Interest from its needy people.
What is the compulsion?

If it is not possible to give out loans without interest then don't give loans.

Even if the government is doing something which is Haram, then at least the government must not call itself a Riasat-e-Medina.

This is the whole point.

Imagine a new Islamic Bank opens tomorrow with the name "Islamic Banking " with the slogan " We only follow Prophet Muhammad Sunna and Quran " and that bank specifically tells us that we don't hide and we practice Ribah.

then how would you feel?

You would tell the bank if you want to do Banking with Ribah like National Bank, Habib Bank etc, then at least don't call yourself an Islamic bank. This is our request to the current Pakistani government, if you are practicing Ribbah where you had the power not to practice then, go ahead do it, But please don't fool us by calling it Riasat-e-Medina.

Finally, there are countries that offer Interest-free loans to their poor people.

See this link to an Australian government website. Australia gives interest-free loans to the people who need money desperately. Why can't Pakistan do that? What Australia is doing is more Islamic than what the Pakistan government is doing with Riba for their needy.

No interest loans - Moneysmart.gov.au

Need money quickly or have a bad credit score? No interest loans have affordable repayments, and no fees or charges.

moneysmart.gov.au

I hope now you understand the point that calling Riasat-e-Medina is a sham to fool Pakistani people.

I completely agree with you but question is that its not the government which is giving money but facilitating the financing through banks.
Also the question is if I am planning to do a business and the idea for doing business is the make money. Let's assume, I ask you to let me a money and will use this money to earn profit and will give the money back to you which u lend me at the beginning.
Now the question is when you given money to me it has some value. Let me explain suppose I took Rs 100,000 from you today. For simple calculation, let's assume price of wheat is Rs2000 per 40KG= 1mond. This means u can buy 50mond wheat with your money today.
I utilized your Rs100,000.00 in my business and made Rs20,000.00 and return your Rs100,000.00 next year. This means I made money on your money and very happy I am very good Muslim that I returned loan but now we know with this Rs 100,000.00 you can not buy 50Mond wheat. This means being a good Muslim, I made money whereas you lost.
Even if you say money on money, 1400 years ago there was no factional reserve currency which is the norm today.
As things changed so our religious scholars need to study new economical models and suggest us how to conduct according to Islam.
Suppose, I am a businessman. Took 1Cr from 100 people each at 0 % interest and build a factory. Given employment to these 100 people made money not only from their services but from their money and yet you call me the good Muslim as I am exploiting others using their resource to grow myself.

 

[knowledge88]

Now who the hell is Ghamdi sahib to change and allow to borrow money on interest when it is not permissible?

So if the government cannot follow Islam and the government can not stop itself from paying the Ribbah.

Then this government should offer loans with Ribba. Collection of Ribbah from the needy of Pakistan, is that a better solution?


You are suggesting if you can't stop paying Ribba then should also collect Ribba. Gunna karo toh khul kay karoh. Gunahay bay lazaat toh naah karo . Woh Ribah collect ker kay tumhara galah kaat raha hay, tum bhi apnay logon say Ribah collect ker kay un kah gala katoh.
Or jab bhi ribah collect kero toh paper per likh do, Pakistan is a new Riasat-e-Madina. .

Is that what you mean?

 

[knowledge88]

I completely agree with you but question is that its not the government which is giving money but facilitating the financing through banks.
Also the question is if I am planning to do a business and the idea for doing business is the make money. Let's assume, I ask you to let me a money and will use this money to earn profit and will give the money back to you which u lend me at the beginning.
Now the question is when you given money to me it has some value. Let me explain suppose I took Rs 100,000 from you today. For simple calculation, let's assume price of wheat is Rs2000 per 40KG= 1mond. This means u can buy 50mond wheat with your money today.
I utilized your Rs100,000.00 in my business and made Rs20,000.00 and return your Rs100,000.00 next year. This means I made money on your money and very happy I am very good Muslim that I returned loan but now we know with this Rs 100,000.00 you can not buy 50Mond wheat. This means being a good Muslim, I made money whereas you lost.
Even if you say money on money, 1400 years ago there was no factional reserve currency which is the norm today.
As things changed so our religious scholars need to study new economical models and suggest us how to conduct according to Islam.
Suppose, I am a businessman. Took 1Cr from 100 people each at 0 % interest and build a factory. Given employment to these 100 people made money not only from their services but from their money and yet you call me the good Muslim as I am exploiting others using their resource to grow myself.

Your arguments prove that implementation of Islamic System or a system without Riba is not practical. I gave you an example of Australia which gives interest free loans to their poor. Pakistani government could have also implemented such system without a partnership with a bank.

 

[Okara]

Your arguments prove that implementation of Islamic System or a system without Riba is not practical. I gave you an example of Australia which gives interest free loans to their poor. Pakistani government could have also implemented such system without a partnership with a bank.

As I mentioned earlier government of Pakistan is not giving loan as they don't have money rather facilitating loaners to get loan from bank with government's guarantee.

Like if Pakistani government or Australian government is giving some subsidy or free money to the needy ones, the source is either if they have money collected from Taxes or they will take loan. So if Australian government giving 0% interest loan it means, loan is not paid by the loaner but the government and in return the whole Australian people either direct or indirect taxation.

In terms of Riba, are we considering the Fractional Reserve System? At the time of Riba, Gold or Silver currencies were the standard. Also there was no concept of devaluation. On top the interests were not small in the old days. This means before factional reserve system, the best way to do a business was with your own money as lending money was not feasible.

Again my argument is not against Riba rather my argument is that current system is not the one Riba was talking about and must be studied.
Just 30 years ago can someone buy a house in Pakistan through loan? Answer is no because interests were very high and was not feasible to build or buy a home so people used to keep adding money to their kitty to build their homes.

Also if our banks are in the business of Riba, why we are going for Hajj using banking system?

May Allah forgive us and guide us to his true Deen. Amin.

 

[Citizen X]

Rinah is not interest as we know it in the financial world today ( save for credit cards* ) Ribah is related to loan sharking.

This correlation to ribah and modern day interest in an invention of moulvis and mullahs. And no where in the Quran says it haram to pay ribah, The Quran only admonishes the loan sharks to stop such practices.

Now who the hell is Ghamdi sahib

A much more learned scholar than you, a flat earther.

 

[surfer]

So it is more like Western World, like Australia, England, Switzerland etc which are welfare states. These are the nations which care for poor people. They give money to the people who lose their jobs, who are unemployed, they pay money to the people who are disabled. And they don't force any religion on them, then why call the Riasat-e-Medina model? Why not Riasat-e-Switzerland model? Wouldn't that be more accurate?

I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam.

— Muhammad Abduh

Doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s an aspiration and goal we should be working towards.

but of course the other side of the coin in the west is that everyone pays thier taxes on time- otherwise you get fined and penalised. For tax evasion you can be jailed.

We on the other hand are a nation of tax dodgers. fix this one thing in pak and half the problem is solved

 

[expat_loyal]

Despite the stellar performance by Islamic banking globally and locally, the general approach has always been not to revolutionize but to adapt existing practices of the conventional banking system and provide a similar experience to attract customers of conventional banking with the promise of services based on Shariah-compliant principles.

However, if we look at the balance sheet of Islamic banks, a majority of the assets have been built on lending to the government of Pakistan for deficit financing like the way peer conventional banks have been operating for years.

It’s just a matter of time before they will question the sanctity of each and every claim made by the existing banking and financial institutions and will demand the demonstration of a true spirit for the Islamic banking and financial system to deliver results that are in line with their religious aspirations.

Islamic banking – delivering on the promise | The Express Tribune

The nation's 75th Independence Day calls for looking at what we have delivered so far on the promises we made at the time of creation.

tribune.com.pk

 

[Munawarkhan]

LOLOLOLOLOL!

So now you want the govt to change the whole banking structure of Pakistan, then give loans.

اگر قرضہ دینا ہی ہے کامیاب جوان پروگرام کے تحت تو قرض حسنہ دیں ۔ سود تو اللّه اور اس کے رسول کے خلاف جنگ کے مترادف ہے۔ اگر ایسے اقدامات کرنے ہی ہیں تو تو ریاست مدینہ کا نام نا لیا جائے۔

مجھے آج تک حکومتی مولویوں کا رول سمجھ نہیں آیا ، چاند نظر آیا یا نہیں کے علاوہ ان لا کام کیا ہے۔ اسلامی نظریاتی کونسل ابھی تک تحلیل کیوں نہیں ہوئی جب اسکا کوئی کام ہی نہیں ہے ۔

ریاست کا تعلق دین سے توڑ ڈالیں اب ، جب ہزار مجبوریوں کے تحت کرنا وہی ہے جو اسلام کی تعلیمات کے خلاف ہے تو پھر یہ زبردستی کی اسلامی جمہوریہ کسی ؟ نا یہ اسلامی ہے اور نہ جمہوریہ ۔ اس ملک کی واحد طاقت ہمیشہ فوج رہی ہے اور اس کو انگلیوں پر ناچنے والے مغربی ۔

مذہب کا نام لے کر لوگوں کو بیوقوف بنانا بینڈ کیجئے ۔​

 

[knowledge88]

Sheikh Imran Hosein explains the reality of Islamic banking​

 

[Siberite]

I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam.

— Muhammad Abduh

Doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s an aspiration and goal we should be working towards.

but of course the other side of the coin in the west is that everyone pays thier taxes on time- otherwise you get fined and penalised. For tax evasion you can be jailed.

We on the other hand are a nation of tax dodgers. fix this one thing in pak and half the problem is solved

Its really futile to even talk about creation of a Islamic welfare state when the Government can't even provide the basic needs to the citizens. This is all hype and nothing else.
As far as west is concerned, They are ruthless regarding their tax collection. They won't spare any penny they can collect and if it belongs to them.
IK couldn't even fix the Revenue Department . I suggested long time ago that Government should introduce temporary measure of incentives to the Revenue department and collects the revenue on commission bases. Give them a good commission rate on the collection amount till every Tom, dick and harry gets in to their registered system .The higher the amount , the higher percentage of commission. It may take few years but they will have their economy registered with every possible tax payee.
However, IK proves to be a person with lots of talk but no action .... I might as well talk to the wall.

 

[Saboo]

So if the government cannot follow Islam and the government can not stop itself from paying the Ribbah.

Then this government should offer loans with Ribba. Collection of Ribbah from the needy of Pakistan, is that a better solution?


You are suggesting if you can't stop paying Ribba then should also collect Ribba. Gunna karo toh khul kay karoh. Gunahay bay lazaat toh naah karo . Woh Ribah collect ker kay tumhara galah kaat raha hay, tum bhi apnay logon say Ribah collect ker kay un kah gala katoh.
Or jab bhi ribah collect kero toh paper per likh do, Pakistan is a new Riasat-e-Madina. .

Is that what you mean?

Stop your BS brother.. All I am saying is that in Islam to give interest and also to take interest….both are haraam….Can you deny that?

 

[knowledge88]

Stop your BS brother.. All I am saying is that in Islam to give interest and also to take interest….both are haraam….Can you deny that?

The first example of Ribah is,
the previous government has made an agreement on the basis of Ribah, How can you come out of this Haram?
The second example is you are making money by intentionally imposing Ribah on your people.

Both are Haram, but is imposed on you, and the second one you are imposing on other by choice.

It is like Pork is Haram.

In the first example ,
Koi bohat taqatwar tumharay moon may Pork Thoos raha hay. You can't stop him.

would that still be Haram?

In the second example

Tum mazay lay lay kay Pork khaah rahay hoh.

Why can't you stop eating pork , mazay lay lay kay ?

You are saying, kyon kay koi pork moon may thoos raha hay is also haram, so eating with mazay lay lay kay can be done too.


DID YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

 

[Saboo]

The first example of Ribah is,
the previous government has made an agreement on the basis of Ribah, How can you come out of this Haram?
The second example is you are making money by intentionally imposing Ribah on your people.

Both are Haram, but is imposed on you, and the second one you are imposing on other by choice.

It is like Pork is Haram.

In the first example ,
Koi bohat taqatwar tumharay moon may Pork Thoos raha hay. You can't stop him.

would that still be Haram?

In the second example

Tum mazay lay lay kay Pork khaah rahay hoh.

Why can't you stop eating pork , mazay lay lay kay ?

You are saying, kyon kay koi pork moon may thoos raha hay is also haram, so eating with mazay lay lay kay can be done too.


DID YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

You are full of shit. No more discussion .

 

[surfer]

Its really futile to even talk about creation of a Islamic welfare state when the Government can't even provide the basic needs to the citizens. This is all hype and nothing else.
As far as west is concerned, They are ruthless regarding their tax collection. They won't spare any penny they can collect and if it belongs to them.
IK couldn't even fix the Revenue Department . I suggested long time ago that Government should introduce temporary measure of incentives to the Revenue department and collects the revenue on commission bases. Give them a good commission rate on the collection amount till every Tom, dick and harry gets in to their registered system .The higher the amount , the higher percentage of commission. It may take few years but they will have their economy registered with every possible tax payee.
However, IK proves to be a person with lots of talk but no action .... I might as well talk to the wall.

I would go the other way, rather then commission, give FBR a big stick and full freedom to use it. Start charging penalties for every day the tax is late. Introduce 100% penalty for tax evasion. No bargaining.

Problem is the FBR guy instead of getting the full tax, will cut a deal with the tax payer to collect x% of the tax due (sometimes part of that in his pocket - which may be greater then any commission he has earned) and close the file.

UK tax authorities (HMRC) used to also negotiate on tax due, but about 10 years ago they decided to stop this as policy. Now it is almost impossible to get any sort of deal. In Pakistan people plan to pay less tax then due - which is why I say we are a nation of tax dodgers.