جنکو ریپ اور بے پردگی کا تعلّق سمجھ نہیں آتا

M Ali Khan

Minister (2k+ posts)
Neither did you cite any research nor did you go through a single one of those I referred earlier. A reasonable and syllogistic approach is to substantiate your claim with evidence and also to evaluate the counter claim as well.

By the way, I have gone through this article you referred. It is only a place where they have been able to get the outfits of only 18 of the rape victims at the time they got raped.

Though, you have clearly ignored the opening lines of my thread here:



Therefore, I am afraid that you are grossly off the mark from the main theme of the discussion over here. You have constantly failed to appraise the main argument of the thread and that is why I have to dismiss your (I hate to use the word) "ramble" as irrelevant and totally drenched in an overwhelming ardor of feminism. However, we are trying to strike a balance between the two extremes of Chauvinism and Feminism.


I must say that you have been blindly vocal about your ideals, rather than being clear about your proposition.
In 2008, the ADFM published the results of their second study that confirmed this wide
spread belief. Nearly one-third (33%) of the male interviewees consider sexual harassment as ‘normal’ behaviour and half of them believe that women enjoy being sexually harassed on the street. While men elevate it to the status of a ‘compliment’ to women’s beauty, an astonishing 35% of the interviewed women trivialise the scope of sexual harassment on the streets by dismissing it as inconsequential acts of ‘insolence’ (bsala or dsara in Moroccan Arabic).
.......
Most surveyed men confessed to harassing women not because their dress is provocative, but to satisfy ‘repressed sexual desires’ or because harassment ‘makes them feel masculine’ or as many said, simply because ‘they are accustomed to harassing women since they were young.’

As Chebbak rightly observes, every woman is harassed ‘every time she goes out regardless of her age, shape, colour, ethnicity, background . . . and no matter what she wears, even if she puts on potato bags’ (2013).


the above lines are excerpts from a research paper about sexual harassment in North Africa https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629387.2013.858034

The very survey you posted here also exhibits a trend that when Governments controlled clothing, the rate of harassment crimes came down.
ft_2020.12.16_religiousdress_02.png


You can clearly see the correlation between the data of 2017 and 2018.
Why have you just picked 2017-18 and ignored the rest of years cited?

As govt restrictions went up in 2014-17, why did social hostilities also up in that period?

Or when restrictions went down in 2013-14, so did social hostility?

What about the overall trend between 2013-18 as govt restrictions have increased then on average social hostilities have also increased slightly if not remained the same?

be VERY careful before trying to imply correlation = causation!

Most of the harassment was in the European Countries over the attire of women being too religious.

ft_2020.12.16_religiousdress_01.png

Can you try to explain that? where you say that the West, with all its problems is still better? Why would they harass someone for not showing enough skin?
You can link that to hostility towards religious minorities, Islamophobia, anti-immigrant trends etc which is absolutely a serious issue in the West, and thankfully many activists & researchers have vocally talked about it, studied it, and want wider society to stop harassing women based on what they wear (which, if you did not guess by now, is also my original point and remains the same be it for Pakistan or some Gora country)

Please do not try to dodge the question. Men will lower their gaze if they do not find something to stare upon. Bad men will be bad men, but what about good men who are lured and tempted by the bare skin they see on the streets? They are not robots..... they have an anatomy which is instigated by such stimuli.

We demand punishment for the bad men who cross the limits, but we also want women to remain within their limits too.

Clearly address the question here Sir.... even if men lower their gaze, would women be allowed to wear whatever they want and show their bodies provocatively?


This might happen on the moon. However, on earth, things are put on display just to attract their customers. Simple psychology.

A hungry man will be always attracted to the sight and smell of food, no matter how religious or irreligious he is.

Men should use control over self, but does that give women the license to keep testing their limits?
MEN ARE NOT THE VICTIMS HERE!

Again, in the Pakistani context, apart from the ultra top 1% of rich affluent Pakistanis who have a way different lifestyle compared the remaining 90-odd percent of Pakistanis, the overwhelming majority women in public wear 'socially acceptable' shalwar kameez with dupatta. many wear hijab, many wear abayas and niqabs too.

But almost ALL of these women will complain of being stared at, leered, teased, harassed, and in many cases assaulted REGARDLESS of what they wore in public and despite keeping within the wider social norms.

Something tells me that what they wear even after following the wider social norms, they still have a far more tough time on average compared to men in our part of the world.

Bikinis, short skirts, tank tops etc. had nothing to do with it nor are they worn by overwhelmingly most women in public in Pakistan. I am indifferent to what Pakistani women want to wear because its none of my business and neither it should any other's, and I fully expect the overwhelming numbers to still follow the social norms rather than going mini-skirts etc. Maybe we should trust women on what they want to wear?

The lived experiences of women in Pakistani public is far more different than those of men in Pakistani public.

Men have the power, and with great power comes great responsibility (esp. with the whole 'temptation' thingy you are constantly rambling about).
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Most surveyed men confessed to harassing women not because their dress is provocative, but to satisfy ‘repressed sexual desires’ or because harassment ‘makes them feel masculine’ or as many said, simply because ‘they are accustomed to harassing women since they were young.’
That seems to be the axial word to the topic here. What are these "repressed desires" and how they get aroused in the first place?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629387.2013.858034
Why have you just picked 2017-18 and ignored the rest of years cited?


As govt restrictions went up in 2014-17, why did social hostilities also up in that period?

Or when restrictions went down in 2013-14, so did social hostility?

What about the overall trend between 2013-18 as govt restrictions have increased then on average social hostilities have also increased slightly if not remained the same?

be VERY careful before trying to imply correlation = causation!
I don't really understand that whether you are mistaken here abruptly or just because of your bias to contest and win an argument?

You have yourself answered the question just below, when you are talking about the social hostilities for religious dresses in the west.

The graph you are talking about refers to both type of hostilities and the break up of these hostilities in the PEW survey reveals that it is the women in the so called advanced secular countries who are constantly harassed for their attire as being not so liberal.

Though, you have vehemently withheld that the men of the West are more tolerant.


You can link that to hostility towards religious minorities, Islamophobia, anti-immigrant trends etc which is absolutely a serious issue in the West, and thankfully many activists & researchers have vocally talked about it, studied it, and want wider society to stop harassing women based on what they wear (which, if you did not guess by now, is also my original point and remains the same be it for Pakistan or some Gora country)
Well.... so much to uncover the reality of the notion of the West being more tolerant and the Western men being more respectable to women. 😂 😂 😂

Likewise, many peopl in Pakistan had been vocal since past many decades against the sexual and hate crimes. So doesn't that put both of these nations on equal footings?


MEN ARE NOT THE VICTIMS HERE!

Again, in the Pakistani context, apart from the ultra top 1% of rich affluent Pakistanis who have a way different lifestyle compared the remaining 90-odd percent of Pakistanis, the overwhelming majority women in public wear 'socially acceptable' shalwar kameez with dupatta. many wear hijab, many wear abayas and niqabs too.

But almost ALL of these women will complain of being stared at, leered, teased, harassed, and in many cases assaulted REGARDLESS of what they wore in public and despite keeping within the wider social norms.

Something tells me that what they wear even after following the wider social norms, they still have a far more tough time on average compared to men in our part of the world.

Bikinis, short skirts, tank tops etc. had nothing to do with it nor are they worn by overwhelmingly most women in public in Pakistan. I am indifferent to what Pakistani women want to wear because its none of my business and neither it should any other's, and I fully expect the overwhelming numbers to still follow the social norms rather than going mini-skirts etc. Maybe we should trust women on what they want to wear?

The lived experiences of women in Pakistani public is far more different than those of men in Pakistani public.

Men have the power, and with great power comes great responsibility (esp. with the whole 'temptation' thingy you are constantly rambling about).



The above two videos will show exactly how males respond to different outfits and attire of women.

You can see that the people will still be looking towards a female in hijab, but their reaction will generally be not that much indecent.

Although, both instances will be recorded as a count of harassment, but which one is more severe, it can be clearly seen.

If the woman want men to behave, then she should also behave herself. If she only wants men to behave but she herself wants to do whatever she likes, then tell those women that respect is a two way street.

On the other hand, rape as a crime should be punished with the capital punishment as proscribed by Islam and not the ones ratified in the west.
 

M Ali Khan

Minister (2k+ posts)
That seems to be the axial word to the topic here. What are these "repressed desires" and how they get aroused in the first place?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629387.2013.858034
I dont know. Maybe check their web browser histories or PC hard drives too then?
I don't really understand that whether you are mistaken here abruptly or just because of your bias to contest and win an argument?
.......
The very survey you posted here also exhibits a trend that when Governments controlled clothing, the rate of harassment crimes came down.
ft_2020.12.16_religiousdress_02.png


You can clearly see the correlation between the data of 2017 and 2018.
your claim was that more govts controlling clothing brought harassment rates down when the graph does not in any way show that to be the case!

You have yourself answered the question just below, when you are talking about the social hostilities for religious dresses in the west.

The graph you are talking about refers to both type of hostilities and the break up of these hostilities in the PEW survey reveals that it is the women in the so called advanced secular countries who are constantly harassed for their attire as being not so liberal.
Probably because the vast majority of women surveyed were from Western/Goray countries so the results will slant towards the sheer number of those countries being more?

After all every other day in Pakistan some local university or college imposes some arbitrary dresscode which it then quietly takes away after negative reaction from public on just how ludicrious they tend to be.

Though, you have vehemently withheld that the men of the West are more tolerant.


Well.... so much to uncover the reality of the notion of the West being more tolerant and the Western men being more respectable to women. 😂 😂 😂
And we are supposed to be the "tameez dar, saleekay dar, mazhabi, mashriqi muaashra" right?
Likewise, many peopl in Pakistan had been vocal since past many decades against the sexual and hate crimes. So doesn't that put both of these nations on equal footings?
apples & oranges. on a side note, just search 'Hijab' on Google scholar and the overwhelming number of research articles are about something to do with Muslim women in Western countries.



The above two videos will show exactly how males respond to different outfits and attire of women.

You can see that the people will still be looking towards a female in hijab, but their reaction will generally be not that much indecent.

Although, both instances will be recorded as a count of harassment, but which one is more severe, it can be clearly seen.
The NYC video is from 2014. wonder what kind of reactions one would get doing same in 2021 (not that i expect anything better either). but the Pakistani video? that 'western dress' in public is not something women wear.

but as I mentioned previously, women who wore abaya, niqab, shalwar kameez with dupatta etc. in public, have shared stories on social media and press (and even recorded videos) of facing harrassment by random guys in the street ranging from being stared at, to being followed, cat-called, pinched to even thrown acid at.
If the woman want men to behave, then she should also behave herself. If she only wants men to behave but she herself wants to do whatever she likes, then tell those women that respect is a two way street.
Ok, so women being present in ANY public space means they should be held equally responsible for being targeted, even if she wears 'socially acceptable attire'. Hence they should stay home, cede any public presence, and NEVER go out because men become all primal whenever they see a female in public. Got it.

also, should young boys also 'behave themselves' to avoid getting raped? https://tribune.com.pk/story/2307243/sold-into-a-nightmare
On the other hand, rape as a crime should be punished with the capital punishment as proscribed by Islam and not the ones ratified in the west.
Either go Full Shariah* for everything or go home. No half measures.

*(which Shariah then? Deobandi, Barelvi, Salafi, Shia? or ijtehad among the sects that openly takfir against each other in their canonical theological texts that are still compulsory readings in their makatib/madaris?)
 
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Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I dont know. Maybe check their web browser histories or PC hard drives too then?

.......

your claim was that more govts controlling clothing brought harassment rates down when the graph does not in any way show that to be the case!
Ok, so kindly tell me what the line graph and the succeeding bar graph in the research shows. I will be thankful for adding to my knowledge and understanding.

Probably because the vast majority of women surveyed were from Western/Goray countries so the results will slant towards the sheer number of those countries being more?
Please see the second bar graph. It shows the areas from where the sample were taken. It shows that there was a proportionate inclusion of people from Asia Pacific, Sub Saharan Africa and Mid East and North Africa as well.

Let me post it again for your kind consideration.


ft_2020.12.16_religiousdress_01.png

The most counts are from Europe n=20 + 2

Secondly, it is the number of countries, not the number of incidents/victims.


After all every other day in Pakistan some local university or college imposes some arbitrary dresscode which it then quietly takes away after negative reaction from public on just how ludicrious they tend to be.


And we are supposed to be the "tameez dar, saleekay dar, mazhabi, mashriqi muaashra" right?

apples & oranges. on a side note, just search 'Hijab' on Google scholar and the overwhelming number of research articles are about something to do with Muslim women in Western countries.

The NYC video is from 2014. wonder what kind of reactions one would get doing same in 2021 (not that i expect anything better either). but the Pakistani video? that 'western dress' in public is not something women wear.
Again, all nothing but personal opinion. No stats or research findings to back up your proposition. Unluckily, the one Pew survey you shared actually fired back on your own arguments by negating your purports.



but as I mentioned previously, women who wore abaya, niqab, shalwar kameez with dupatta etc. in public, have shared stories on social media and press (and even recorded videos) of facing harrassment by random guys in the street ranging from being stared at, to being followed, cat-called, pinched to even thrown acid at.

Ok, so women being present in ANY public space means they should be held equally responsible for being targeted, even if she wears 'socially acceptable attire'. Hence they should stay home, cede any public presence, and NEVER go out because men become all primal whenever they see a female in public. Got it.

also, should young boys also 'behave themselves' to avoid getting raped? https://tribune.com.pk/story/2307243/sold-into-a-nightmare
The answer is what has been repeatedly told to you, and once again I repeat:

ان کے کپڑے تو دعوتِ گناہ نہیں دے رہے تھے
جی بالکل ٹھیک بات ہے، ریپ کا تعلّق عورتوں کے کپڑوں سے زیادہ مردوں کی ذہنیت سے ہے۔ لیکن اس بات کو سمجھنا ایک عورت کے لیئے شائد مشکل ہو کہ مردوں کا ذہن اور خاص کر کمزور مردوں کا ذہن کیسے کام کرتا ہے؟

مرد کے لیئے اللہ نے عورت کے جسم میں شہوت رکھی ہے۔ لیکن ضروری نہیں کہ مرد اسی عورت پر ہاتھ بھی رکھے جس کے جسم کو دیکھ کر اس کی حالت خراب ہوتی ہے۔ ظاہر سی بات ہے، کہ اگر کوئی عورت کسی بناء پر مرد کے لیئے قابل دسترس نہ ہو تو وہ اس پر تو ہاتھ صاف نہیں کرسکتا، لیکن وہ اس کے جسم کو دیکھنے کے بعد وہ حدّت اپنے دماغ میں لیئے گھومتا رہتا ہے اور پھر اسی عالم میں جہاں اسے کوئی قابل دسترس عورت یا کمسن بچہ بھی میّسر آجائے تو وہ اپنی اس حدّت کو اس پر نکال دیتا ہے
Please, if you can read before making your next comment, then it is ok. Otherwise, I don't see any point in continuing this argument where you are hell bent to just say and not to read or consider the other's opinion/data/information/findings/evidences etc.

Either go Full Shariah* for everything or go home. No half measures.

*(which Shariah then? Deobandi, Barelvi, Salafi, Shia? or ijtehad among the sects that openly takfir against each other in their canonical theological texts that are still compulsory readings in their makatib/madaris?)
Quite insipid, but fairly true. There are a lot of disparities between the sects, however, you will be surprised to know that for the crimes like these, the punishments are clearly mentioned in Quran and hence, no single sect has an argument against it.

Secondly, our courts have repeatedly, where there are clear revelations in Quran and Sunnah, have over ruled the precepts of sectarian posits. Ask me and I can give around tens of such examples.

The constitution is clear in this regard -- No law can be against the teachings of Quran and Sunnah. It does not render the constitution being subservient to sectarian precepts.
 

Pracha

Minister (2k+ posts)
so much for being 'ashfarul makhlooqat' then eh?

those who think like animals will act like animals

We are part of the animal kingdom (makhlooq) but evolved to be the most intelligent (Ashraf). However, our primitive part of the brain is no different than those of other animals, specially primates.
 
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