Front Line - 6th Sep 2011 - Marvi Sarmad & Mufti Abdul Qavi - Personal Freedom, State and Religion

[jimz84]

u joker, where are they gaining any money or dolars. especially after Mr. Taseers and Mr. Bhattis killings does anyone think that these people are standing up against conventional wisdom for anything other then principles. after her appearance against lal topi, she has recieved numerous death threats and also baseless allegations of blasphemy levelled against her. can any money buy man peace against these threats? and she is not even a Z-security person like salman taseer. kuch to dimagh lagao.

mai pakistani sheheri hota to thodi mai public me jaake aisi batein karta. i would have kept shut and said hail to the military-mullah alliance. its the easiest thing to do.

u clown...u better keep ur nose on ur side...don`t need to interfere in our issues..and i can see u r supporting ur agent sent in our country..by the way did u do any struggle in ur country to legalize gay rights???>..1st do in ur own country legalize it then come to us....bloody urin drinker

[jujuju]

i am not a urine drinker and i dont even know what it means. i have faught for gay rights in india, againt the war here in US, against operation cast lead in gaza etc. so dont teach me what i have to fight for. for your info india has already decriminalized homosexuality.

u clown...u better keep ur nose on ur side...don`t need to interfere in our issues..and i can see u r supporting ur agent sent in our country..by the way did u do any struggle in ur country to legalize gay rights???>..1st do in ur own country legalize it then come to us....bloody urin drinker

[mrcritic]

i am not a urine drinker and i dont even know what it means. i have faught for gay rights in india, againt the war here in US, against operation cast lead in gaza etc. so dont teach me what i have to fight for. for your info india has already decriminalized homosexuality.

So mr Indian GAY supporter, how would you like if your father has a mid life crisis and he decides to f***** other men? would you support your father? Go out to the street with signs saying PROUD TO BE SON OF A FATHER WHO HAS NOW TURNED GAY?

[mrcritic]

My expert opinion on this whole show is that EXPRESS NEWS has done this merely to grab ratings. I could barely watch her talk, I changed the channel. the utter filth erupting from her mouth was beyond disgust. India will be more than happy to gave her a passport. Some one should have asked her, if an artist makes a nude painting of herself, her mother or her daughter and put it in the art gallery, how would she like it? (she probably wont even object to that!!).
Giving her more airtime all of a sudden?

[jujuju]

i have no problem, its his (my father's) business not mine. is it worse than being corrupt. what if i had to say my father is corrupt. i would be much more ashamed. if my father (late father now) were gay, i would not be ashamed in the least bit. i am sorry.

also i dont know why my being indian a la "mr Indian GAY supporter" is so important. its an accident of birth. i could as easily have been born in pakistan or mongolia. my gay supporting profile is certainly more important.

So mr Indian GAY supporter, how would you like if your father has a mid life crisis and he decides to f***** other men? would you support your father? Go out to the street with signs saying PROUD TO BE SON OF A FATHER WHO HAS NOW TURNED GAY?

[mrcritic]

i have no problem, its his (my father's) business not mine. is it worse than being corrupt. what if i had to say my father is corrupt. i would be much more ashamed. if my father (late father now) were gay, i would not be ashamed in the least bit. i am sorry.

Ok fine, that is your shining indian thinking, not ours. We will never allow this in our homeland. Corruption and Homosexualism should be .

Please donot comment further, as this TV show was not meant for indians to discuss/talk about.

[jujuju]

being from the subcontinent, i feel pakistanis, bangladeshis, neepalis and lankans are all my brothers. especially more so because i speak good urdu(pakistan), very good bangla (bangladesh) and my mothertoungue tamil (sri lanka). what happens in any of these countries is certainly important for me. even here in USA i have lot of pakistani friends and i have never seen them as any different from myself and its with pleasure that i must say they afford me as much love and affection.

i dont know why u have to be so reactive to me. i am not imposing my ideas on you, its just a debate. every interaction in society is made richer by a broader spectrum of ideas from all oppossing sides. why do you start getting personal if someone differs from your viewpoint? what do you mean "not ours"? are u representative of 18 crore pakistani citizens to decide what they think?

Ok fine, that is your shining indian thinking, not ours. We will never allow this in our homeland. Corruption and Homosexualism should be .

Please donot comment further, as this TV show was not meant for indians to discuss/talk about.

[Naeem]

@wadaich
marvi anj lagdi hay jinj dr paltoo nu makeup kr k bitha ditha howay lagda hay ada ik banday naal dil nahi pharda annu lahore de kisi pahlwana de akharay ch phaij dena chahida ....jithay patha wadaich pahlwan.. te naal panj das hor pahlwan iko naal anu gay lesbian da faraq dasan

[Bret Hawk]

Nations don’t vanquish by calamities and catastrophes but through the process of moral degradation once quipped by a legendary mystic of Islam Mulana Jalalud din Muhammad Rumi (May Almighty further bless and sanctify his exalted soul).

Now the critical point of intrigue is to find out the clear cut answer of such question that, what are the true genuine sources of morality and ethical values for mankind? Does it can be reached through the process of Man’s unaided intellectual dialecticism or it can be construed by combining the other source of pristine and infallible knowledge of revelation is need to be churn out.

Modern age’s dilemma of a common Man is his unbridled and limitless sense of arrogance which he nourishes through the streams of those data and information which are derived through the unreliable sources of his primary senses and plus by boasting to rely on the so called precision of the methods of empiricism. Revelation for these sort of slaves of scientific method and human reasoning has either limited or no meaning at all in many matters of their lives.

For instance who can define the boundaries and standards of morality based on human process of reasoning? For some Westerners Nudity for instance only means to expose the genital organs of a concerned individual and for the members of Eastern traditions the uncovering of head may be frowned upon till this day. Can this gap of understanding and orientation of Morality be bridged through any other process and source of knowledge is what the need of these confused times.

Another absurd analogy is tried to be put forth here by the advocates of homosexuality that it is supposedly prevalent in vast majority of animal species. Alright if the selective line of behaviour of such animal species can become the source of inspiration for the so called educated minds of this age then why not trying the practise of killing the Male sexual partners by their female counterparts after completing the process of mating (A normal behaviour in most of Spider species), or to bite the neck of a female during that process of lovemaking by the copulating Man to his sexual partner (As in the case of Cats sexual acts) or may be using any instrument of torture during that process in order to assume those practises normal and according to the nature of many vertebrates isn’t it?

Surely there is no limit of insanity for such liberal fascists which they ought to display with utmost pride and religious conviction on many matters which are related with the ethical values of Mankind. There arguments are as fickle, pathetic and downright absurd which they profess in order to project their sick & distorted opinions on the matters of faith and its prescribed morality.

And according to one presumed “Medical Expert” of this forum who has tried to display the tenuous line of argument that Homosexuality is not a disorder or psychological anomaly but has failed to depict the fuller picture of its supposed effects which the medical science’s experts have found many strong correlations in their studies and researches which have now spanned for many decades. Whether homosexuality borne out of a mental disorder or not but it surely generate many psychological disorders for its highly praised “Practitioners” which can roughly be enumerated in following categories as maintained by the relevent experts of psychiatry from around the world;

• Increased tendency of drug and alcohol usage.
• Inflated rates of Suicide.
• Single largest reason to get contracted with HIV infection through the process of anal sex.
• Various complex psychic disorders ensue among the homosexuals where an extreme bout of depression is just a fragment of that family of mental diseases.
• Mysterious changes of physical appearance (specially the facial countenance) and eating disorders.
• Another form of psychic disorders which results by failing to detect the sexual roles and orientation.
• Hatred for opposite sexes and the development of anti social behaviour among the promiscuous homosexuals.

Note: The above list of psychological and social effects of homosexuality has been extracted from the research papers of “American Psychiatric Association” and is not the figment of my speculative mind which can be corroborated by the sceptics and choir members of Homosexuality.

[wadaich]

@wadaich
marvi anj lagdi hay jinj dr paltoo nu makeup kr k bitha ditha howay lagda hay ada ik banday naal dil nahi pharda annu lahore de kisi pahlwana de akharay ch phaij dena chahida ....jithay patha wadaich pahlwan.. te naal panj das hor pahlwan iko naal anu gay lesbian da faraq dasan

eendhay marz da ilaj Mianwali theesi.

[mrcritic]

being from the subcontinent, i feel pakistanis, bangladeshis, neepalis and lankans are all my brothers. especially more so because i speak good urdu(pakistan), very good bangla (bangladesh) and my mothertoungue tamil (sri lanka). what happens in any of these countries is certainly important for me. even here in USA i have lot of pakistani friends and i have never seen them as any different from myself and its with pleasure that i must say they afford me as much love and affection.

i dont know why u have to be so reactive to me. i am not imposing my ideas on you, its just a debate. every interaction in society is made richer by a broader spectrum of ideas from all oppossing sides. why do you start getting personal if someone differs from your viewpoint? what do you mean "not ours"? are u representative of 18 crore pakistani citizens to decide what they think?

Mate, i have indian friends too...i'm saying this debate was aired on Pakistani TV and was meant for pakistani viewers, so is this forum. You wont find so many pakistanis on indian forums as you find so many indians here!.

And by the way, yes, 95% of Pakistani Awaam will always oppose homosexuality, there will still be that bugging 5% burger community in all favour.

[Mughal1]

In my view we have two major problems a) we lack understanding of the quranic text in its own context and b) we lack understanding of issues being discussed because we have not properly researched and explored about them. It is for this reason we are totally confused. It is for this reason ummah is divided even over definitions of terms like tawheed and shirk, sunnah and bidah, taqleed and ghair muqallidiyat etc etc. If we are so divided over these fundamental issues then one has to ask, are we really capable of tackling anything at all for sake of unity?

The real question is, are all people born the same biologically and are all people raised the same psychologically? The answer is no. If all people are not born the same biologically and are not raised the same psychologically then how do we ensure their well being? Does islam give any rights to such individuals?

Human psychology depends on human biology eg if one is brain damaged his psychological development suffers regardless this person was born with damaged brain or it happened to him after birth.

In all cases islam makes exceptions to rules eg fighting in battle field is only imposed upon fit people not the one's without limbs. Fasting is only for those who are fit for fasting. Zakaat is only for those fit for it and likewise hajj is for those who are fit for it etc etc.

When it comes to issue of homosexuality likewise we have two separate issues to understand. a) What exactly is actual quranic stand on this issue and b) what exactly is homosexuality ie is it result of nature or nurture?

The issue is not what societies want and what individuals want but what is the best way forward for mankind. It is a huge issue so it cannot be settled by shouting each other down rather making sensible contributions would help both sides understand things better.

[Mughal1]

Dear ealtaf, haroon yahya is not a reliable source for islamic information as regard science. he is not a scientist but follows christian creationists' ideology.

The quran has been grossly misinterpreted so any translation and interpretation of the quran is doubtful because none of them is based upon any proper research or exploration of the issues.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthrea...-stand-and-why

No nation was ever destroyed by Allah because Allah is kind and compassionate not a monster as explained in the link I provided. It is a serious offense in sight of Allah that people should attribute lies to him. If you open up tafaseer by these so called great scholars of islam that is exactly what they did. By their lies they turned Allah in to a cruel God a very harsh being.

It will therefore be a good idea to not to rely on such peoples' interpretation who even failed to convey the proper sense and respect for God.

All nations were either destroyed through civil wars due to inflicting harm and destruction upon each other or that one nation attacked another for similar reasons. Oppression and suppression, injustice, unfairness, cruelty, animosity, regression and poverty destroyed them. Things that are destroying us today were the things that destroyed them because that was the consequence of their own actions against each other.

The whole quran has been misinterpreted not just story of prophet lot and his people. It will be good to rediscover what the original story was rather than push what is not true at all, because that is not how Allah set up the world to work. The world hs always worked the same way because Allah always made it work the same way and that is what sunnatallah means. 6/115, 10/64, 33/38, 62, 35/43, 40/85, 48/23, 50/29 etc. This is why accepting natural laws is absolutely necessary. This was major point raised in india by sir seyyed ahmed khan against mazhab parast mullahs. One can read detailed discussions in his makalaat.

http://www.aboutquran.com/ba/ba.htm

Hope this helps further discussion based on solid arguments.

regards and all the best.

[Huma]

I have a question...I have been told that homosexuality is not allowed in Islam but exactly what does that mean? I mean you are not allowed to lie either but Islam doesnt tell us to have a lie detecting police to punish the people who lie. So does that mean an act of homosexuality is punished by law or just frowned upon? And what if you are homosexual but are not intimate with someone, does Islam say anything about that?

[rahulNYC]

I have a question...I have been told that homosexuality is not allowed in Islam but exactly what does that mean? I mean you are not allowed to lie either but Islam doesnt tell us to have a lie detecting police to punish the people who lie. So does that mean an act of homosexuality is punished by law or just frowned upon? And what if you are homosexual but are not intimate with someone, does Islam say anything about that?

Interesting question. Cant wait for a mullah to come forward and give his expert views

BTW, in our culture, homosexuality is as old as time itself. Many mughal kings were gay (bisexual) , Mahmud of Ghazni and Babur were the most famous ones. Sultan Mirza had a harem of male prostitutes. Baccha baazi has been prevalent in Afghanistan for quite some time.

I wonder how Zaid Hamid thinks about these muslims who ruled India for 1000 years

Rahul

[Resonant]

For those people who dont have any regard for religion, at least they should agree on the point that Do in the Rome as the Romans do....

[modern fakir]

Wrong Rahul ...in YOUR culture having sex with an animal is also accepted ..That might be HINDU culture ...because you have some true classic and genuine beliefs which any right minded person will have second opinions about. I mean if your sadhus can dance around naked in kumb ka mela ...then homosexuality must be natural like YOU said in YOUR CULTURE..

Here this is for your viewing pleasure ...Here some minor girls have been married off to a FROG !..its actually a religious speciality ...Now come on ...LETS CELEBRATE ..

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ls-temple-pond

Alhomdolillah ...we BELIEVE and PRACTICE Female for Male and that also Lawfully ...If you want to have cows, mice, monkeys. Elephants ...Do whatever you want in your Country ..But in PAKISTAN "Land of the Pure" ..We will keep the Norm to be Pure.

Oh and By the way ...quit lying about the mughal emperors..according to you ..every muslim thing is belittled yet your the First to show TAJ Mahal to every foreigner that visits your country ...without such Muslim Symbols your identity would either be a cow or a rat ..And dont take this offensively because this is reality.

And even if i were to take your lies on face value ...and lets suppose on of the guys you mentioned was gay or lez then what does that prove ?

You know according to research their are more Liars in this world than Truth Speakers ...so does that mean we should all start lying ?? ..No

The norm will always be the norm and the crap will always be crap..you can keep on supporting crap ..but my friend **** rolls down hill...lol lol

Interesting question. Cant wait for a mullah to come forward and give his expert views

BTW, in our culture, homosexuality is as old as time itself. Many mughal kings were gay (bisexual) , Mahmud of Ghazni and Babur were the most famous ones. Sultan Mirza had a harem of male prostitutes. Baccha baazi has been prevalent in Afghanistan for quite some time.

I wonder how Zaid Hamid thinks about these muslims who ruled India for 1000 years

Rahul

[rahulNYC]

Wrong Rahul ...in YOUR culture having sex with an animal is also accepted ..That might be HINDU culture ...because you have some true classic and genuine beliefs which any right minded person will have second opinions about. I mean if your sadhus can dance around naked in kumb ka mela ...then homosexuality must be natural like YOU said in YOUR CULTURE..

Here this is for your viewing pleasure ...Here some minor girls have been married off to a FROG !..its actually a religious speciality ...Now come on ...LETS CELEBRATE ..

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ls-temple-pond

Alhomdolillah ...we BELIEVE and PRACTICE Female for Male and that also Lawfully ...If you want to have cows, mice, monkeys. Elephants ...Do whatever you want in your Country ..But in PAKISTAN "Land of the Pure" ..We will keep the Norm to be Pure.

Oh and By the way ...quit lying about the mughal emperors..according to you ..every muslim thing is belittled yet your the First to show TAJ Mahal to every foreigner that visits your country ...without such Muslim Symbols your identity would either be a cow or a rat ..And dont take this offensively because this is reality.

And even if i were to take your lies on face value ...and lets suppose on of the guys you mentioned was gay or lez then what does that prove ?

You know according to research their are more Liars in this world than Truth Speakers ...so does that mean we should all start lying ?? ..No

The norm will always be the norm and the crap will always be crap..you can keep on supporting crap ..but my friend **** rolls down hill...lol lol

You are a funny man

First you give me some news articles and try to prove that these things are common in "my" culture.
Then you say even if what I said about Mughals was true....what does it prove ?

Arguing with you is a waste of server space.

[barhaich]

No he is not. U need to see the program and closing again.

Bro, if he will act neutral in the debate of homosexuality, then he is playing part in this dirty propaganda.

I think he should have joined the far right club, and have informed his fan-following that homosexuality is one of the biggest sins.

I resent his secular and so-called unbiased approach.

[Tutor]

being from the subcontinent, i feel pakistanis, bangladeshis, neepalis and lankans are all my brothers. especially more so because i speak good urdu(pakistan), very good bangla (bangladesh) and my mothertoungue tamil (sri lanka). what happens in any of these countries is certainly important for me. even here in USA i have lot of pakistani friends and i have never seen them as any different from myself and its with pleasure that i must say they afford me as much love and affection.

i dont know why u have to be so reactive to me. i am not imposing my ideas on you, its just a debate. every interaction in society is made richer by a broader spectrum of ideas from all oppossing sides. why do you start getting personal if someone differs from your viewpoint? what do you mean "not ours"? are u representative of 18 crore pakistani citizens to decide what they think?

I can understand where he is comiing from and again where you are coming from but there is a problem!!

you are trying to show sincerity but is that what india and indians do in genera, l no they don't.
Indians are here to mock at us when there are sueside bomb blasts, balochistan issue and karachi Killing etc, and we also know indians involvement in that very clearly.
We don't see praise from any indians on something that is showing other progressive sides of pakistan instead you come and like Marvi sermad 9and people like her) who challenges 'two nation theory in public'. the back lash you get from here is natural. If I go and disregard Ghandhi's freedom struggle in public in india, indians are hardly going to consider me as their hero or saviour and give me flowers...
I have indians friends and we can sit and discuss things that we have common, but that doesn't mean they should come and stab us from behind and we should keep our mouths shut. Shame on us if we do!!