In Islam did Head of State granted Immunity?

[atensari]

dolay shah kay choohay bana dia hay is qaum ko Dr. Israaron nay.

Choohon nay Rassian ko bagah diya, America Afghanistan main nakam hoonay kaay baad Pakistan per daboo daal raha hay.

Khazi Shaar kyun pola pola matam kartay hain, zoor say choot kyun nahi lagatay, pata chalay saar per talwar lagti hay too kay hoota hay. Daramay baaz. Jaam Hazrat Hussain (R) nam lay lay kar Bularay thay koi karbala main nahi wara, Aab Karbala karbala kartay hain. Ahla Bait (Azwaj o Alla Muhammad SAW) kay Dusman-a-Azam

[oscar]

dolay shah kay choohay bana dia hay is qaum ko Dr. Israaron nay.

Choohon nay Rassian ko bagah diya, America Afghanistan main nakam hoonay kaay baad Pakistan per daboo daal raha hay.

Khazi Shaar kyun pola pola matam kartay hain, zoor say choot kyun nahi lagatay, pata chalay saar per talwar lagti hay too kay hoota hay. Daramay baaz. Jaam Hazrat Hussain (R) nam lay lay kar Bularay thay koi karbala main nahi wara, Aab Karbala karbala kartay hain. Ahla Bait (Azwaj o Alla Muhammad SAW) kay Dusman-a-Azam

kahan pohanch gay ho bhayya.
All I mean is that muslim history is empty from anything like accountability.
And yazidies like Dr. Israr don't deserve to quote Ali (RA)'s examples.
And Qazi Shure in this incident is one who gave fatwa of Hazrat Hussain(RA)'s Qatl.
although 3 years later, Mukhtar (RA) publically burned this holy Qazi. Just FYI, his tongue was pulled out before he was killed.

[dukelondon]

Aab Karbala karbala kartay hain. Ahla Bait (Azwaj o Alla Muhammad SAW) kay Dusman-a-Azam

Jo us waqt Karbala mein Imam Hussain ki madad ko nahi aaya, ye us ka fayl tha. Aaj kay musalmanon ka is fayl say koi taaluq nahi. Ye kya jahilana mantaq hai kay kyun kay us waqt Kufay kay loag madad ko nahi aaiy is liye aaj dunya bhar kay Musalmaan Karbala waalon ko yaad na karein aur Karbala ki dastaan bayaan na karein. Agar karein to wo Ahle-e-Bayt ka dushman hain. Kuch likhnay say pehlay kuch soch liya karo. Kisi ki nafrat mein itnay paagal na ho kay sensless rhetoric type karnay lago. Islam ki bunyaad insaaf pay hai. Kuch bhi type kartay waqt insaaf kiya karo. Nafrat aur ghussa insaan ko paagal bana detay hain. Isi liye ghussa haraam hai.

It seems oscar is trying to tell us that we should dig out history to find out what actually happened. Read Khilafat-o-Malukiyat by Maulana Maudidi and you will find out what oscar is talking about.

Even the Ottomon Empire (Khilafat-e-Usmania) had serious problems that you have never bothered to read about. They were based in Turkey and had imposed Turkish language as the official language throughout the Muslim world. The Arabs had got sick and tired of this and had started hating the Turks. This is just one thing. There are hundereds of other things that were happening in this so called Khilafat. It was not only the British who were responsible for the downfall of the Khilafat. It was already hollow from inside. They just gave it a final push. Read history and come out of the Khilafat dream wonderland.

Lets not talk about any sect. Lets learn from history and lets NOT repeat mistakes made by Muslim rulers of the past. Sahaba(RA) were not angels. They were humans and were as prone to making mistakes as you and me are. We have to make sure that we learn from those mistakes and mould our character as close to that of RasoolAllah(PBUH) as possible.

[oscar]

Aab Karbala karbala kartay hain. Ahla Bait (Azwaj o Alla Muhammad SAW) kay Dusman-a-Azam

Jo us waqt Karbala mein Imam Hussain ki madad ko nahi aaya, ye us ka fayl tha. Aaj kay musalmanon ka is fayl say koi taaluq nahi. Ye kya jahilana mantaq hai kay kyun kay us waqt Kufay kay loag madad ko nahi aaiy is liye aaj dunya bhar kay Musalmaan Karbala waalon ko yaad na karein aur Karbala ki dastaan bayaan na karein. Agar karein to wo Ahle-e-Bayt ka dushman hain. Kuch likhnay say pehlay kuch soch liya karo. Kisi ki nafrat mein itnay paagal na ho kay sensless rhetoric type karnay lago. Islam ki bunyaad insaaf pay hai. Kuch bhi type kartay waqt insaaf kiya karo. Nafrat aur ghussa insaan ko paagal bana detay hain. Isi liye ghussa haraam hai.

It seems oscar is trying to tell us that we should dig out history to find out what actually happened. Read Khilafat-o-Malukiyat by Maulana Maudidi and you will find out what oscar is talking about.

Even the Ottomon Empire (Khilafat-e-Usmania) had serious problems that you have never bothered to read about. They were based in Turkey and had imposed Turkish language as the official language throughout the Muslim world. The Arabs had got sick and tired of this and had started hating the Turks. This is just one thing. There are hundereds of other things that were happening in this so called Khilafat. It was not only the British who were responsible for the downfall of the Khilafat. It was already hollow from inside. They just gave it a final push. Read history and come out of the Khilafat dream wonderland.

Lets not talk about any sect. Lets learn from history and lets NOT repeat mistakes made by Muslim rulers of the past. Sahaba(RA) were not angels. They were humans and were as prone to making mistakes as you and me are. We have to make sure that we learn from those mistakes and mould our character as close to that of RasoolAllah(PBUH) as possible.

dukelondon, thanks for rational analysis of what I said.

I am a Muslim who prays the sunni way ( cuz I learned it from my dad), but I don't call myself Sunni or Shia.

I have spent my life listening useless debates aboout khilafat. by God if today's muslims shomehow get a readymade Khilafat, it won't last more than one generation. jootion mai daal batay gi.
Just read Delhi history from 1707 to 1740 and you will understand what I mean.

we lack the basic moral principles that build a sustainable society.
just imagine to stand in a line in Pakistan for a utility bill, or to buy a show ticket?can you compare it with any kaafir country experience?

what is the difference? people know that breaking line will ensure a ticket for them, and standing in line will waste time and make them look stupid. and they know that nobody in line has moral courage to question his action and, window guy will not feel any shame for rewarding lawlessness.

this thing may not be a big issue if it is restricted only to a ticket window. it has become deep rooted experience of generations.


Here is our proud history,
One who broke every line to grab Khilafat got most fazeelat. his best chum gets next level in fazeelat, his favourite, who divides entire empire among his family becomes #3, his stooge who quarrels with the deserving owner cannot be questioned.

Decieving is Syasat and farasat.
Cheating is ijtehad. (wrong ijtehad gets one sawab)
Napotism is Sakhawat
Sabar is Buzdili.
Efaay ehed is stupidity.
people get the rulers they deserve. and we deserve musical chairs of Zardaries, Ganjas and COASs.

[babadeena]

A suggestion to Moderator(s)

If it is possible, please open a section for religious discussion, wherein people
may express whatever they wish to express. Every topic on politics in Pakistan, in one way of other leads to the utilization of religion. Therefore, I think a religion section
side-by-side the siasi discussion may be good. Let the people express without any
restrictions what their faith or cross-faith is, and justify that with reference to day to day problems. It is just a suggestion.

[babadeena]

but my dear, the Ayat you quoted is about people who passed before that Ayat.
My Point is that muslims have some inherent design problem that allows anybody to do anything and still get away with it in his life and after him.

So what is lesson in that Ayat. It clearly states that "people who had passed away before you, took their deeds with them, you(the present people) will not be asked what they used to do". And ponder at one more important things the "passed people in that Ayats" are "prophets, like Ibrahim, Yaqub etc. etc". In nowhere the "personalities" which we make disputes on them, are nearer to them at all.
If it is still not clear to you, then ponder at more on Quranic guidance.

people like you bring ayaat from quran for coverup during his life, and after his death.

What you wish to prove what happened 1300 years ago. You will reverse the time. The irony is that people spend millions of hours of their life (almost all their
entire life) indulging on them, without any benefit.

You seem to be confused with Zardari & Co. Zardari is President of Pakistan, you wish to criticize him, expose him, make him accountable, all is good. He is not yet the "past personality", "or go to the Graves of Ayub and Yahya and get out what you wish to have it from them". It is very simple.

[oscar]

What you wish to prove what happened 1300 years ago. You will reverse the time. The irony is that people spend millions of hours of their life (almost all their
entire life) indulging on them, without any benefit.

It is not our choice that we are living 15th century after Islam was revealed.
but it is in our hand to verify what went wrong that things are so messed up.
What has happened centuries ago can't be changed, but we need to be aware of it to avoid falling in same ditch again and again.
I will teach this to my childern, students and anyone who wants to know.

[Bret Hawk]

@ Oscar

I think if a new category of ignorance and enticing hatred might have been introduced in near future in the Academy then you might have the chance to win that prize undisputedly. I’m amazed to view that you have such hatred and bigotry in your heart and mind against those Muslims who dare to differ from your sect’s ideology and principles. I myself respect that sect a lot as well and have no feelings of enmity against them. But people like you sometimes force me to indulge in that kind of negativity. You bad mouthed a renowned Islamic scholar Dr Israr and indirectly point your verbal spats against those Sahabas to whom our Holy Prophet Sala Lahu AlihiWasalm gave them the tidings of good abode in the hereafter in their life times. Its true that being Sahaba Kiram Rizwaan Ullahi Ajmayen and highest of the highs of this Ummah, they still were the mere mortals and its true some mistakes and flailings might have been committed from them and may Allah Subhaan Watalaah knows the best that whether those mistakes of theirs were intentional or unintentional and as someone rightly said earlier leave them to be judged by the God Almighty Himself we sinners can only conjecture and form our opinions about someone’s characters in the light of some second and third hand information delineated by some historians who are mortals like us and can be mistaken (wilfully or intentionally or through pressures) on many of such accounts.


I some times think that majority of the followers of any religion in this world become entrapped with the myths and creeds easily. To me only the primary sources of Islam can lead to some clear picture about the controversies of its personalities and rulers. We can name them as Yazid Ibn Muawiya , Hajaj Bin Yousuf, Hassan Bin Saba and many of other controversial personalities which evoke some extreme emotions and feelings about some people who have some kind of preconceived predilections imposed by their sects and strict adherence to the teachings of those creeds make them intellectually slaves and therefore devoid them from any productive reasoning and introspection.


Mr Oscar and you are one of those persons who have that kind of mindset which I’ve mentioned in the above section. Before you comment on other Sahabis (Most prominently the three Khualafa E Rashideen) try to analyse the role of Hazrat Ali karam Allah Wajhu in the first Fitna Tul Kubra of Islam with an open mind and I hope if you do that then you will find out some interesting facts related to the issues of the unjust murder of Hazrat Usman Razi Allah Anhu and the events leading up to the events of Karbala in the 61th Hijri. You might also find someone with the names of Abdullah Ibn Saba, Banu Hanifah and Tamim of Najadi areas (who were the supporters of Hazrat Ali KAW and later rebelled against him after the battle of Siffin) and might found some of the missing links of that tragedy which was culminated into the events of Karbala. When you say that the Sahabis were mere individuals and were prone to commit some of the mistakes then also try to rationalise that was Hazrat Ali KAW not committed any mistakes during his noble life? And also prior to demonizing the character of Yazid Ibn Muawiyya try to read the comments of two gigantic Mujadadin (Revivers) of Islam (First is Imam Al Ghazali and the second one is Imam Ibn Taymiyya Alihim Salam) and see what they have opined on the questions of cursing and demonising Yazid on his alleged role in the events of Karbala. I hope that like majority of blind followers of sects you will respond rationally to my points and would try your best to do contemplation on those issues upon which I’ve alluded in my post. Though I know what would be your reaction in advance but I will hope that you will come up with your improved behaviour and would stop to demonize and calling names like Yazidi , takfiri and malaoons to those personalities of Islam on which you have little knowledge and information.

[oscar]

Bret Hawk, can you give me definition of term "Sahabi" that you have used?
we will deal with your "Alihim Salams" like Al Ghazali and Imam Ibn Taymiyya after that.

[babadeena]

It is not our choice that we are living 15th century after Islam was revealed.

Did someone else, had or used to have that choice? Everyone is supposed to
live as per his/her time.

but it is in our hand to verify what went wrong that things are so messed up.

Verification? through which source? First of all, please do accept, that those people were just mortals like us, they spent their lives according to the circumstances and needs of their time. They acted in different situations as per their own code of conduct. and for that they(all) are going to be answerable to their Lord. Disputing on them, making sects on them, elevating somes and degrading few others, by no means are going to be our "good deeds".

What has happened centuries ago can't be changed, but we need to be aware of it to avoid falling in same ditch again and again.

It is nothing wrong in it to get information. But as I said the institution of "history" is disputed and never agreed upon by all. You can best do that get "common points" from different sources and be aware of the situation.

I will teach this to my childern, students and anyone who wants to know.

Then do a favour to them, also teach them that "making sects/divisions on the basis of "past personalities" will not lead them to anywhere. Just give a thought all our sects and differences are "why that particular personality did that", "that particular personality did not do this, he should have done this etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.". This is nothing else by "self-destruction", unfortunately that is the case with present day so-called Muslims.

[oscar]

babadeena I agree with you on making sects/divisions. Thats why I don't belong to any "bidat" of sect. (shia or sunni)
still we need to know who was "more right" and who was "less right" in soft terms.

[Bret Hawk]

I’m amazed once again to see your incapability to know what does the word Sahabi means (Though I know very well your feigned naivety). Anyhow on the authority of Imam Bukhari, Muhammad Al Tijani, Ibn Saad Al Baghdadi, Imam Al Sayuti and many more among the Sunni scholars “Any person who saw the Holy Prophet SAW in the state of faith (Imaan) and later died in that state without any concrete allegation of his / her detraction / apostasy from that faith would regard as a Sahabi” Now what were there merits in the Quran and Hadith I think it would be a known fact as well for many Muslims unless people like you resort to their own scholars compendium of works to have a variant view in this regard. Anyhow what else you need to say now not about (Not only) my but the Muslim Ummah’s giants (Imam Al Ghazali & Imam Ibn Taymiyya Alihim Salam Wa Rahima Hum Allah SWT) which I’ve referred to in according to your myopic and narrow-minded views? I’m willing to take bigoted extremists like you head-on, on any given day and moment to prove that how much filth of hatred and biasness is filled in their sick minds and hearts.

[oscar]

I’m amazed once again to see your incapability to know what does the word Sahabi means (Though I know very well your feigned naivety). Anyhow on the authority of Imam Bukhari, Muhammad Al Tijani, Ibn Saad Al Baghdadi, Imam Al Sayuti and many more among the Sunni scholars “Any person who saw the Holy Prophet SAW in the state of faith (Imaan) and later died in that state without any concrete allegation of his / her detraction / apostasy from that faith would regard as a Sahabi” Now what were there merits in the Quran and Hadith I think it would be a known fact as well for many Muslims unless people like you resort to their own scholars compendium of works to have a variant view in this regard. Anyhow what else you need to say now not about (Not only) my but the Muslim Ummah’s giants (Imam Al Ghazali & Imam Ibn Taymiyya Alihim Salam Wa Rahima Hum Allah SWT) which I’ve referred to in according to your myopic and narrow-minded views? I’m willing to take bigoted extremists like you head-on, on any given day and moment to prove that how much filth of hatred and biasness is filled in their sick minds and hearts.

thanks, can you do me another favour by providing the definition of word "Munafiq" used in Quran?

[Bret Hawk]

I’m not in a class room where you will ask me for definitions and explications. Just go on and put your point of view (If you’re capable of) without any further deviating from the subject and beating about the bush. We all know what does the Munafiq word means and especially with the context of Holy Quran.

[oscar]

I’m not in a class room where you will ask me for definitions and explications. Just go on and put your point of view (If you’re capable of) without any further deviating from the subject and beating about the bush. We all know what does the Munafiq word means and especially with the context of Holy Quran.

Can a sahabi be a munafiq?

[atensari]

babadeena I agree with you on making sects/divisions. Thats why I don't belong to any "bidat" of sect. (shia or sunni)
still we need to know who was "more right" and who was "less right" in soft terms.

OSCAR your first comments on first page, and your “ha ha” in response to by request to Moderator to remove your comments, is not enough to prove your Sectarian Mentality? I just wanted to share few good examples from our history “honourable personalities did not consider themselves over and above law”.

and babadeena:

We don’t have Islam that’s why we have all these problems, in country and in Ummat. We are considering non-Muslims friends and making Muslims enemies, a dictator cannot kept his pant dry over a international phone call, this video(s) will remind you the history and few more facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0544ite1GYY

[oscar]

if you laugh at zionist propoganda, are you anti-semite?
kya zamana aa gaya hay, talking against baseless sectarian belief = sectarianism.


and where is my friend Bret Hawk ?

[dukelondon]

Brother Bret Hawk, I dont have much knowledge about Imam Ghazali to be honest so I dont know why he admired Yazid. However, Ibn Taymiyya is known in history for his new version of Islam which inspired Abdul Wahab and upon which the Wahabi school of thought was established. 100% of Muslims involved in terrorist activities against innocent civilians are either Wahabis or Salafis. Not a single Barelwi is involved in any such attack. The question is why?? The answer lies in the inspiration the terrorists draw from their spiritual leaders like Ibn Taymiyya and Abdul Wahab. So, if you tell me that just because Ibn-e-Taymiyya loved Yazid and thought he was innocent, the whole Muslim community should forget the history of all other historians (Both Shia and Sunni) regarding Karbala and start loving Yazid and declare him innocent, I'm not very sure if that would be a sane thing to do.

If you still think Yazid should be admired, termed innocent and jannati and the word (RA) be used with his name, then I would say that lets make a prayer with a pure heart to Allah(SWT):

You pray that may your Aakhrat be with Yazeed and Yazeed only.
I will pray that may my Aakhrat be with Imam Hussain(RA) and Imam Hussain(RA) only.

Phir Allah(SWT) hum mein insaaf kay saath faisla kar day. Aur sab say behtar faisla karnay wala hai. Ameen.

The reason is that Non-Muslims have already taken advantage of our in-fighting. This is not the time to fight but to stand united. So, we should try to explain our stand to each other but if we still disagree, we should not argue but say the above mentioned prayer with a pure heart at Fajar prayer and forget about this discussion. Thanks.

[Bret Hawk]

Brother Dukelondoner, I had no intention to discuss this highly sensitive topic here relating to the age old debate of Shia Sunni conflict. I was compelled to do so by “Oscar” when he outlandishly criticized the respectable Dr Israr Ahmad and metaphorically lynched the first three Kulafa Rashideen. Now having said that I just accepted this fact that being a Sahabi no matter how great they are considered by the scholars of Islam, they were also mere humans and have had weaknesses but the fundamental point is that they always acted in good faith in the matters related in political and social matters of that epoch of Islam. Yes mistakes did happen from them and I admit this fact but my problem with extremists like Oscar is why don’t they apply the same principle on their own specific revered & sacramental personalities? Why they have this kind of dichotomy whilst scanning the characters of Sahaba E Rasool Salal Lahu Alihi Wasalam? One more point I want to clear here is that brother I’m not an admirer of Yazid Ibn Muawiya and personally found him very controversial and disputed person in the history of Islam but still I haven’t made up my mind that whether he was actually behind the tragedy of Karbala or not as I said in my earlier posts.



There are number of other scholars of Islam who exonerate Yazid from the spillage of the sacred blood of Imam Hussain Razi Allah Anhu and his noble household but I picked the opinions of the two highest scholars of Islam who were also happened to be the Mujadids of this Ummah, now if someone have the audacity to ignore them out his / prejudice and hatred then there’s not much I can do about it, and the Imam Al Ghazali is on record to say that Yazid was a pious and upright Muslim and to slander and curse a Muslim is a sin and not allowed. That’s what his position is and Imam Ibn Taymiyya though criticises Yazid’s character in some of his works but still think that majority of the accounts of his alleged involvement in that tragedy are not authentic and are full of fabrications & lies. Now having said that its not me or a layman’s job to implicate a historical personality just because what the “popular” culture and tradition dictates us I think the proper way of studying the historical events is to search the primary sources consult with the scholars of that discipline and try to critically analyse those events and their contexts. Unfortunately majority of us just jump into conclusions by just reading what’s in the books are without further academic verification and join the bandwagon of admiration / hatred for some personalities, which is of course not a good practise of a educated and rational Muslim.




Last but not least I also curse and condemned with swear possible words against those beasts who perpetrated those soul shaking atrocities against Imam Hussain RA and his companions & family members at Karbala but all I’m saying to the blinded extremists like Oscar is not to do lope sided and one dimensional scathing attacks on those personalities who are considered the greatest individuals after the Prophets and should not implicate and revere some personalities without having the opportunity to assess the historical records with an open and unbiased mind. Many of the haters of Sahaba E Kiram forget to draw an analogy that without the help of unwavering devotes even the predecessor Prophets Alihim Salam were not able to complete their worldly missions and their examples are in Holy Quran and Hadith literature I don’t have to go into much details here. So one has to be thankful and respectful to those brave followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW who never deserted him in the most crucial and delicate moments of his life and always fought against the odds with their antagonists and later after the demise of Holy Prophet SAW they spread the word of God to the vast majority of the regions of the world and God knows because of their Noor how many non believers get the enlightenment and embraced Islam and we the inhabitants of Indian subcontinent are included or else we most probably would have been born and brought up in infidel families. That’s only one aspect of our life where we have to be thankful to those Mard E Maumins of Islam not like the followers of Moses AS who deserted him on many of the crucial occasions of his struggle against the enemy of Allah SWT and used to say him that Moses (AS) you and your God should go and do the job for us as we are unable to do anything, or not even the Sahabas were like the followers of Jesus AS who used to abused him and out of disgust sold (Nauzubillah) our Holy Prophet SAW for 30 gold coins to his enemies and later tried their best to persecute and kill him. Therefore one has to be very careful when he / she open his mouth against those sacred Mujahids of Islam to whom Allah SWT and Nabi SAW have full praises in the corpus of Islamic literature.




@ Oscar

No an upright Sahabi can’t be a hypocrite there can’t be a dualistic qualities in those pious men yes they might have committed some unintentional or intentional mistakes in their pious lives but all what they did was in good faith and hence we can't slander them with that disrespectful word of Munafiq / hypocrite and by the way there’s also a consensus among the Ummah and scholars of Islam that to whom that title of Munafiqs were referred to.

[dukelondon]

Brother Bret Hawk, if you still haven't made up your mind if Yazid was behind the tragedy of Karbala, then why is it so? If it was not Yazeed, then how was it possible during the time of Yazid? Do you believe that Yazid was the caliph of that time and that Imam Hussain refused to do bayt on his hand ?? Are you aware of the rivalry between Muwayiah and Hazrat Ali? I mean if Yazid was the Caliph at that time and was innocent, then who was responsible?