Anti Islam article published in PakistanToday

[lurker]

I don't think you are grasping the gist of the article. It says, it is irrelevant who the leaders were of Pakistan - Malsi has ALWAYS been the star attraction. And everything has always tried to cater to Malsi's needs. The article even gives an example of A M Hinnaj's 11th August Speech which went in the trash and is totally disregarded because that is a secular manifesto. I am also of the opinion that Pakistan's woes have very little to do with leadership - it has to do more with the people. Pakistan suffers from an identity crisis first and foremost. What identity crisis you may ask? The basic and the first one - What are you first? Muslim or Pakistani? Hinnaj said you are Pakistani first, second and last. Malsi said No. You ask some of the people who fought for Pakistan's independence and even they will tell you the Mullah's have always pushed Malsi's importance, even though they never led the nation in an official capacity. Malsi is the Star attraction of this Zoo. It has always been one. We are all required to Dance to Malsi's tunes.

Dude, you need to get one thing straight: I am least bothered what Pakistan was created in the name of. So, your nonsense is right back at you as far as that is concerned.

Secondly, who in their right mind would agree to this other nonsense of yours (and that idiotic writer) that Pakistan is being governed by Islam?? What? The only semblance of pseudo-Islam that one could argue was perhaps Zia al-Haqq. So I will give you that much that 10 years out of the 60-odd can be blamed on Islam. What about the arrears? No Malsi the Elephant was ruling at that time. Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Iskander Mirza, Benazir , ZA Bhutto, Musharraf were no Malsi, were they?

So, please, just in your orgasm of wanting to bash Islam at least get your facts straight. In fact, stop contradicting yourself. I thought you secularists were of the hue that it was the Mullahs who opposed the creation of Pakistan? So, what, just had a change of heart and now are blaming Islam for Pakistan?

Theek kehtay hain that "Success has many fathers and failure is born an orphan". Look back at all the people who have ruled Pakistan and tell us how many of them were Mullahs? In fact, how many of them even had beards? Don't blame your own shortcomings on a tradition that has over a billion followers and over 1400 years of history (with all its ups and downs).

Cheers!

[Aleph]

See, you contradict yourself again. 11th August was a "secular manifesto". So now you are claiming that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism! Dude, make up your mind!

By the way, what a nice little manifesto. Out of so many years of the struggle for Pakistan all the seculars have to show is ONE day with just a few lines? So 3-4 lines is a "manifesto"? Subhan Allah!

I don't think you are grasping the gist of the article. It says, it is irrelevant who the leaders were of Pakistan - Malsi has ALWAYS been the star attraction. And everything has always tried to cater to Malsi's needs. The article even gives an example of A M Hinnaj's 11th August Speech which went in the trash and is totally disregarded because that is a secular manifesto. I am also of the opinion that Pakistan's woes have very little to do with leadership - it has to do more with the people. Pakistan suffers from an identity crisis first and foremost. What identity crisis you may ask? The basic and the first one - What are you first? Muslim or Pakistani? Hinnaj said you are Pakistani first, second and last. Malsi said No. You ask some of the people who fought for Pakistan's independence and even they will tell you the Mullah's have always pushed Malsi's importance, even though they never led the nation in an official capacity. Malsi is the Star attraction of this Zoo. It has always been one. We are all required to Dance to Malsi's tunes.

[drkjke]

no one will care.this is a nation where farooq paracha of dawn did open blasphemy against islam but no one protested,this is a nation where sahaba raziallah unhum,s effigies are burnt regularly in some area but for "inter sect harmony" this is not even reported and police never intereferes in this.this nation only protests when an american does blasphemy against islam,if pakistani does the same this nation is very "tolerant"

[lurker]

See, you contradict yourself again. 11th August was a "secular manifesto". So now you are claiming that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism! Dude, make up your mind!
By the way, what a nice little manifesto. Out of so many years of the struggle for Pakistan all the seculars have to show is ONE day with just a few lines? So 3-4 lines is a "manifesto"? Subhan Allah!

The author of the article also highlights this and calls it a "Summersault". Hey, I have always said that something changed Jinnah's mind and he delivered that speech. Like most things in history I think the answer is not so simple. On the surface to me it looks like Jinnah changed his mind.

Here's the logic. There is no text book or manual that tells you how to create a nation. The concept itself is easy. You get a group of people and you either topple the current regime or you force the current one to abdicate. However once the nation is formed, running it and giving it direction is a totally different beast altogether. I have spoken to writers in Pakistan about this contradiction in Jinnah's words and most of them see it. They explain that either Jinnah changed his mind when it comes to running a country based on Islam, or his Islamic interpretation was secular in nature like Turkey's. The author even asserts that to this day this is debated. Perhaps Jinnah realized that the basis of Pakistan was to save Muslim minority in India from Hindu majority. But if followed letter to letter that would mean the non-Muslim minority of Pakistan will become what the Muslim minority in India faced at the time. Logic dictates that statecraft is a fluid situation. States are evolving creatures. What Jinnah displayed on 11th August speech was what he thought was the logical evolution for the new State of Pakistan. Unfortunately he died. Malsi's maintainers, the Mullahs lived on.

We don't see a contradiction in the sense of the words. We see a U-Turn. And I've said it before, Jinnah was no Prophet. He was fallible like you and me. Only Human.

[lurker]

no one will care.this is a nation where farooq paracha of dawn did open blasphemy against islam but no one protested,this is a nation where sahaba raziallah unhum,s effigies are burnt regularly in some area but for "inter sect harmony" this is not even reported and police never intereferes in this.this nation only protests when an american does blasphemy against islam,if pakistani does the same this nation is very "tolerant"

You are wrong. 99% of all prosecuted under the blasphemy law in Pakistan are Pakistanis. And I think you all have a much difficult task when a Pakistani just wants to be a Pakistani, but religion is forced upon him/her. A slave obeys. A man chooses. Most of these people have nothing against Islam. They have everything against God's spokespersons in Pakistan. Bulleh Shah was branded the same. He spoke out against the orthodoxy as well. There are other notable people as well.

[Mullah Omar]

See, you contradict yourself again. 11th August was a "secular manifesto". So now you are claiming that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism! Dude, make up your mind!

By the way, what a nice little manifesto. Out of so many years of the struggle for Pakistan all the seculars have to show is ONE day with just a few lines? So 3-4 lines is a "manifesto"? Subhan Allah!

yaar no point arguing with this quasi-atheist. He says Jinnah simply fooled people by using Islam when his actual aim was to create a secular state lol

[Unicorn]

yaar no point arguing with this quasi-atheist. He says Jinnah simply fooled people by using Islam when his actual aim was to create a secular state lol

Your are also brave in posting this article here.

[Aleph]

Sure, Jinnah was a fallible human being. However, sometimes you forget that you are very much a fallible human being as well? Or is it that you are an infallible animal? Take your pick.

So, all you have to prove a 'change of heart' or "u-turn" are 4 lines? I mean of the VOLUMES of Jinnah's words and speeches that is all you have got to show for the "somersault"? No, in fact, it shows that your line of reasoning is the proverbial drowning man clutching at straws. You have nothing going for you in terms of ideological arguments so you cook up something from 4 lines to suit your world view. However, you might have fooled yourself, but you should hardly be blaming others for seeing the fallacy in your approach.

One can sight speeches of Jinnah AFTER this event (11th August) where he talks of "islamization" of different facets of civic institutions. But, that is pointless and not really the concern here. The concern here is to show the patently flawed thought process that you self-proclaimed secularists possess. So it takes just 4 lines to theorize how Jinnah changed his mind? Ma sha Allah!

This happens because you want to have your pie and eat it, too. You want to rid the Islamic roots of Pakistan (strange how the founders of this country couldn't have come up with a more secular name, no?) yet you want to keep Pakistan as your real estate investment.

Take a sincere advice: If you are ashamed of being a Muslim then it is pointless to go through the torture. Rid yourself of it and move on. But, don't fool yourself into thinking that other people should be doing the same as you and even doing so at state level. Furthermore, like I said before, Islam is a religion/tradition that has been existing for over 1400 years, over different geographical locations, over different political systems and with over a billion followers. Had it been so flawed as you think it to be then it would have ended, but it hasn't.

So either you are a real smart arse who has figured out what so many others couldn't or you are just the peripheral fringe trying too hard to affect the core force that you so desperately want to break free from.

Cheers!

The author of the article also highlights this and calls it a "Summersault". Hey, I have always said that something changed Jinnah's mind and he delivered that speech. Like most things in history I think the answer is not so simple. On the surface to me it looks like Jinnah changed his mind.

Here's the logic. There is no text book or manual that tells you how to create a nation. The concept itself is easy. You get a group of people and you either topple the current regime or you force the current one to abdicate. However once the nation is formed, running it and giving it direction is a totally different beast altogether. I have spoken to writers in Pakistan about this contradiction in Jinnah's words and most of them see it. They explain that either Jinnah changed his mind when it comes to running a country based on Islam, or his Islamic interpretation was secular in nature like Turkey's. The author even asserts that to this day this is debated. Perhaps Jinnah realized that the basis of Pakistan was to save Muslim minority in India from Hindu majority. But if followed letter to letter that would mean the non-Muslim minority of Pakistan will become what the Muslim minority in India faced at the time. Logic dictates that statecraft is a fluid situation. States are evolving creatures. What Jinnah displayed on 11th August speech was what he thought was the logical evolution for the new State of Pakistan. Unfortunately he died. Malsi's maintainers, the Mullahs lived on.

We don't see a contradiction in the sense of the words. We see a U-Turn. And I've said it before, Jinnah was no Prophet. He was fallible like you and me. Only Human.

[Nothingness]

article is in ENGLISH

[lurker]

Sure, Jinnah was a fallible human being. However, sometimes you forget that you are very much a fallible human being as well? Or is it that you are an infallible animal? Take your pick.

Now now. No need to show your teeth. We are all human beings here. Some more so than others.

So, all you have to prove a 'change of heart' or "u-turn" are 4 lines?

It was actually 1,695 words. It was addressed in an official capacity to the constituent assembly of Pakistan. Look it up and face the music.

I mean of the VOLUMES of Jinnah's words and speeches that is all you have got to show for the "somersault"? No, in fact, it shows that your line of reasoning is the proverbial drowning man clutching at straws. You have nothing going for you in terms of ideological arguments so you cook up something from 4 lines to suit your world view. However, you might have fooled yourself, but you should hardly be blaming others for seeing the fallacy in your approach.

Again, it was 1,695 words. That somersault enough for you?

One can sight speeches of Jinnah AFTER this event (11th August) where he talks of "islamization" of different facets of civic institutions. But, that is pointless and not really the concern here. The concern here is to show the patently flawed thought process that you self-proclaimed secularists possess. So it takes just 4 lines to theorize how Jinnah changed his mind? Ma sha Allah!

Again, 1,695 words.

like I said before, Islam is a religion/tradition that has been existing for over 1400 years, over different geographical locations, over different political systems and with over a billion followers. Had it been so flawed as you think it to be then it would have ended, but it hasn't.

It has ended. Where is your Khalifah now? Where is you Ulema now? I suggest you make a warm cup of tea. Sit down calmly at your computer and make way to the following link and Read:
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/le...11aug1947.html

[Aleph]

See, now you are running out of answers so keep repeating a fallacy. In any case, even 1695 words does not constitute a "manifesto". Boy, and then we think why secularists can't govern! Dude, school children write essays in 5000 words!!

Also, from the entire 1,695 words NOTHING supports your propaganda except for a few (maximum 30-40 words). And that, too, ripped completely out of context.

Islam has ended, really? In your head, yes. But it is firmly entrenched in the hearts of billions. Idiots like you have been propping up from time to time telling people of how Islam has ended only to find themselves running with their tails between their legs. From the 80 years of Crusader hegemony in Jerusalem to the Tatars running over the Khilafah in Baghdad - every time idiots like you popped up celebrating in their orgasm that Islam was dead and gone.

But, you see, that is the problem with orgasms - they are exciting, but short-lived.

Now now. No need to show your teeth. We are all human beings here. Some more so than others.


It was actually 1,695 words. It was addressed in an official capacity to the constituent assembly of Pakistan. Look it up and face the music.


Again, it was 1,695 words. That somersault enough for you?


Again, 1,695 words.


It has ended. Where is your Khalifah now? Where is you Ulema now? I suggest you make a warm cup of tea. Sit down calmly at your computer and make way to the following link and Read:
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/le...11aug1947.html

[lurker]

See, now you are running out of answers so keep repeating a fallacy. In any case, even 1695 words does not constitute a "manifesto". Boy, and then we think why secularists can't govern! Dude, school children write essays in 5000 words!!

Also, from the entire 1,695 words NOTHING supports your propaganda except for a few (maximum 30-40 words). And that, too, ripped completely out of context.

You didn't even know how many lines that speech was.

I will highlight to you violations of Jinnah's 11th August Speech. You can contest me wherever you see fit. If you can, that is.

If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

In Today's Pakistan, All Pakistanis are Not Equal with Not Equal obligations and privileges. A simple example is the Presidential Office. Your Mullah brethren gave the explanation that its 'not that they are unequal, they are just not qualified for the position.' to which I asked not qualified by what criteria? Their religion? If So, let's get to the other violations.

We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.
Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.


I gave you more of it so you may demonstrate your ability of comprehension. That and ofcourse I am always curious to know how each Mullah tries to slip through this. It's always good to get every Mullah's take on this matter. Not saying you are a Mullah. You must be just some Muslim who thinks he is getting a special pat on the back by Jibraeel for defending an All Mighty God and His religion. Which seems like a Blasphemy to me. lol. But any how, I am not chasing you for it.

Islam has ended, really? In your head, yes. But it is firmly entrenched in the hearts of billions. Idiots like you have been propping up from time to time telling people of how Islam has ended only to find themselves running with their tails between their legs. From the 80 years of Crusader hegemony in Jerusalem to the Tatars running over the Khilafah in Baghdad - every time idiots like you popped up celebrating in their orgasm that Islam was dead and gone.

There are more Christians than Muslims in the world. If their reign has ended, what makes you feel you are special? Ego? Pride? Or just plain old simple Belief? Hey, I am just saying - "Islam has nothing to do with the Business of the state." You are free to goto your Mosques, Temples and Bidah parties. Oh wait. You aren't. Some other muslims don't think you are free to do even that. They'll do what they did in Abbas town. To the Hazaras. The wave of terrorism is not from Seculars. We are just watching the show and try to stay out of the way of Islam fighting with itself.

But, you see, that is the problem with orgasms - they are exciting, but short-lived.

What's with you and Orgasms? Before you were showing your teeth and talking about animals. Now its Orgasms. What's next? Pissing contest? lol.

[crankthskunk]

Its a tough task there are several Elephants there

YOU have forgotten, the monkey's, the snakes, the rats, the cows etc etc.

[lafatah]

LOL...complete nonsense article with no intellectual value.


I am a liberal man of faith...but this article is just rubbish.


BUT PLEASE DONT MAKE THIS MAN FAMOUS LIKE THEY MADE THAT IDIOT CALLED SALMAN RUSHDIE...

please...this article belongs in the gutter and it will go there unless we start burning our cities to bring it down...

[Mehrushka]

YOU have forgotten, the monkey's, the snakes, the rats, the cows etc etc.

is it necessary to mock people religion..

[crankthskunk]

is it necessary to mock people religion..

Babes, where did I say anything about the religion?

Anyway, Didn't he mocked Islam in his earlier comments? What is this article is about? It is mocking Islam and the creation of Pakistan. The damned has even used the name of Jinnah and Iqbal backward in the column.

So what he has done in earlier post to concur with the writer and agreed on Pakistani creation shouldn't have happend. It is not down to Pakistan only, even though that in itself is not acceptable. But the article goes way beyond Pakistan and its creation, it goes to Muhammad Bin Qasim arriving in Debal. And with his arrival, the arrival of Islam in the sub-continent.

Now please tell me, what Unicorn meant in his earlier comments, if he didn't mean the elephant mentioned in the article i.e. Islam?

So, who attacked my religion first?

[Mehrushka]

Babes, where did I say anything about the religion?

Anyway, Didn't he mocked Islam in his earlier comments? What is this article is about? It is mocking Islam and the creation of Pakistan. The damned has even used the name of Jinnah and Iqbal backward in the column.

So what he has done in earlier post to concur with the writer and agreed on Pakistani creation shouldn't have happend. It is not down to Pakistan only, even though that in itself is not acceptable. But the article goes way beyond Pakistan and its creation, it goes to Muhammad Bin Qasim arriving in Debal. And with his arrival, the arrival of Islam in the sub-continent.

Now please tell me, what Unicorn meant in his earlier comments, if he didn't mean the elephant mentioned in the article i.e. Islam?

So, who attacked my religion first?

show me his 1 post where unicorn has attacked islam in this thread...and plz avoid using the word babes!

[fasmik]

This is the most bold and daring article I have seen my Salutation to Shahid and Pakistan Today I could never imagine something like this in Pakistan..

Pakistan is associted with islam. anyone having problem with it can simply f u c k off. Go join ur sister veena in india.

[crankthskunk]

show me his 1 post where unicorn has attacked islam in this thread...and plz avoid using the word babes!

OK, the story went like this,
Unicorn wrote:
This is the most bold and daring article I have seen my Salutation to Shahid and Pakistan Today I could never imagine something like this in Pakistan..
Raaz responded:
U take care of Indian Zoo....
Unicorn responded:
Its a tough task there are several Elephants there
I responded:
YOU have forgotten, the monkey's, the snakes, the rats, the cows etc etc.
Did you get it?

What was the elephant name in the article: Malsi, Islam written backward.

By the way, cannot stop using Babes, that's how I talk whole day long.

[Unicorn]

YOU have forgotten, the monkey's, the snakes, the rats, the cows etc etc.

I am sticking with my monkey God to the bitter end