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  1. #21
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by iceburg View Post
    Khalafat momeneen ko di gayi tu momeneen ne kya kiya...??

    Apne two Khalifas ko qatal kiya.... Khilafat ne malookiyat ka libaada aurha tb kya hua .....??? Poore Ahl-e-Bait ko Shaheed kar diya gaya...

    Khalafat Allah ka promise tha jo k poora ho chukka hai aur hum ne khud he os ki qadar nahi ki.

    Ab koi nabi nahi aaye ga tu koi khalifa bhi nahi bane ga .... Lehaza fi-l-haal ... halaat k pesh-e-nazar .... I again request you to support PTI. Pehli baat ye hai k PTI ka koi secular agenda nahi hai ... (only person like me can be advocates of secularism ... Lakin Party main hamari koi authority/recognition/say nahi hai.

    Secondly ... as I have already explained ... Secularism ka matlab 'La-Deeniyat' nahi hai.

    Thirdly ... Khalifa Khuda khud banata hai... Kisi k campaign ya tahreek chalane se koi Khalifa nahi bane ga. Agar tumhari zindagi main Khuda ne kisi ko rightful Khalifa bana diya ... phir tum Imran Khan ko chorr k oss ko join ker lena.

    اگر یہی پیمانہ ہے تو جمہوریت میں بھی یہی کچھ ہوا. بنی بھی قتل ہوئے، رسولوں کے بعد ان کے قوموں نے کفر اور شرک اختیار کر لیا تو کیا نبوت و رسالت ناکام ہو گئی. بقول علامہ اقبال جمہوریت بھی ملوکیت کا پردہ ہے
    اللہ کا ایک اور وعدہ ہے، محمد صلّلہ علیہ وسلم تمام دنیا کی لئے نبی بنا کر بھیجے گئے اور خلافت تمام دنیا پر قائم ہو گی. یہ وعدہ ابھی پورا ہونا ہے

    حضرت عمر کو اللہ نے خلیفہ نامزد کیا تھا؟. میں نظام باطل کو مضبوط کرنے کی بجائے دین اللہ کو قائم کرنے کی ناکام کوشش کرنے کو ترجیح دوں گا. کیونکہ میرے بس میں کوشش کرنا ہے، کامیابی کب ہو گی اللہ جانتا ہے. اللہ کے بنی دنیا سے بظاھر ناکام چلے گئے میری کیا اوقات

    اگر سیکولازم کا مطلب لادنیت نہیں تو عمران خان یہ اعلان کر دے کے پی ٹی آئی دستوری منافقت دور کرتے ہوئے آئین سازی میں قرار داد مقاصد کو اس کا مطلوبہ مقام دے گی نا صرف نیک تمنائیں بلکہ ووٹ بھی عمران کا ہو گا


    اگر نیت خراب نا ہو تو بہت بڑی سیاسی، عدالتی اور انتظامی تبدیلی کئے بغیر زرداری یا عمران خان بھی خلیفہ بن سکتا ہے



    Sponsored Link

    Last edited by atensari; 09-Apr-2012 at 02:17 AM.


  2. #22
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    are you stupid or what? its not hijab people have problem, its niqab. covering of face.
    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    Religious signs like "Hijab" are against secular values not the Cross. Secular have serious problem with Hijab, right?


  3. #23
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by biofilm View Post
    are you stupid or what? its not hijab people have problem, its niqab. covering of face.
    Not more than you, okay its Niqab, what cross and star of David doing on flag?


  4. #24
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Again are you stupid or what? which of the 8 flag in this post has star of David? and Cross has historical christian background. these flag have no came into being overnight. they have old Christian history. All the mentioned countries are at least better than Pakistan when it comes to freedom of religion and freedom change religion. get some life. go out eat some fibrous food it helps digestion.
    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    Not more than you, okay its Niqab, what cross and star of David doing on flag?


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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    Religious signs like "Hijab" are against secular values not the Cross. Secular have serious problem with Hijab, right?
    I don't think any one has any problem with Hijab. If you are referring to the situation in France and a few more countries it is about Nikab not Hijab. I am one of the secular and liberal who believes that either is individual choice.


  6. #26
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by biofilm View Post
    Again are you stupid or what? which of the 8 flag in this post has star of David? and Cross has historical christian background. these flag have no came into being overnight. they have old Christian history. All the mentioned countries are at least better than Pakistan when it comes to freedom of religion and freedom change religion. get some life. go out eat some fibrous food it helps digestion.
    Blind man see the 9th post.

    All religious sign has historical background on evolved over night. Cross reminds Crusades the Holy Religious War. What it is the need to keep that sign alive?
    Question is not which country is better and which is not. Question is when religion is separated from State, why it is still on State Flag. I Believe you are not able to digest the truth "Secular double standards".


  7. #27
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post

    اگر یہی پیمانہ ہے تو جمہوریت میں بھی یہی کچھ ہوا. بنی بھی قتل ہوئے، رسولوں کے بعد ان کے قوموں نے کفر اور شرک اختیار کر لیا تو کیا نبوت و رسالت ناکام ہو گئی. بقول علامہ اقبال جمہوریت بھی ملوکیت کا پردہ ہے
    اللہ کا ایک اور وعدہ ہے، محمد صلّلہ علیہ وسلم تمام دنیا کی لئے نبی بنا کر بھیجے گئے اور خلافت تمام دنیا پر قائم ہو گی. یہ وعدہ ابھی پورا ہونا ہے

    حضرت عمر کو اللہ نے خلیفہ نامزد کیا تھا؟. میں نظام باطل کو مضبوط کرنے کی بجائے دین اللہ کو قائم کرنے کی ناکام کوشش کرنے کو ترجیح دوں گا. کیونکہ میرے بس میں کوشش کرنا ہے، کامیابی کب ہو گی اللہ جانتا ہے. اللہ کے بنی دنیا سے بظاھر ناکام چلے گئے میری کیا اوقات

    اگر سیکولازم کا مطلب لادنیت نہیں تو عمران خان یہ اعلان کر دے کے پی ٹی آئی دستوری منافقت دور کرتے ہوئے آئین سازی میں قرار داد مقاصد کو اس کا مطلوبہ مقام دے گی نا صرف نیک تمنائیں بلکہ ووٹ بھی عمران کا ہو گا


    اگر نیت خراب نا ہو تو بہت بڑی سیاسی، عدالتی اور انتظامی تبدیلی کئے بغیر زرداری یا عمران خان بھی خلیفہ بن سکتا ہے


    I also don't like democracy. In my opinion best form of Govt. is Good Dictatorship (for example my own dictatorship) and the worst form of Govt. is bad dictatorship (for example your or Taliban dictatorship). Mere bas main ho ... Mujh main itni taaqat ho tu democracy ki aisi ki taisi kar doon. Jis din mujh main itni power aaye gi aisa kar bhi doon ga. Lakin as a matter of fact itni mujh main power nahi hai. Abhi hamare Mulak pe Munafiq Shareefon aur Raskal Zardariyon ka qabza hai. inn se jaan churrwane ka most direct/feasible aur possible way PTI ko support karna hai.

    Secondly I assure you ... agar aaj Khuda kisi ko Rightful Khalifa bana bhi de phir bhi iss baat ki koi guarentee nahi hai k tumhain os ka follower ban.ne ki taufeeq mile gi. Bilkul possible hai k tum os ki takfeer karna shuru kar do.

    So actually tum bilkul pointless ho. Ground realities ko nahi samajhte. Kuch short term strategies hoti hain kuch long term goals hote hain. Short term strategies are like stair steps to the achievement of long term goals. Tum stair step pe qadam rakhna he nahi chahte aur chahte ho k ooper ki manzil pe pohunch jao. Dear ... iss tarah tum idhar he kharre reh jao gy...!!!


  8. #28
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    @atensari

    Hazrat Umer RA ko Hazrat Abu Bakar RA ne namzad kiya tha. Khuda ki taraf se Namzadgi ka matlab physical namzadgi nahi hai balke Devine Approval aur Support hai which is not on surface bas samajhne ki baat hai.


  9. #29
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    So you would be happy if only these symbols are removed? it does matter in Europe anymore. People here have come out the awe of religion. They separate religion from state. They have a very clear understanding of secular social life. it does not matter if flag has a Cross or not. Europe is a based on Judeo.Christian values and you cannot change history but they dont accept religious order in official life. only private matters and social areas to some extent have religious tone. So it is very stupid to argue on this issue. when you have Muslim countries like saudi arabia who are religiously so narrow minded that they dont even allow muslim brothers and sisters to go there and settle. I can tell you from my personal experiences I have more freedom to preach my religion then in
    pakistan. You know that premise of your argument is just wrong. Actions in west speak louder that words here in west.
    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    Blind man see the 9th post.

    All religious sign has historical background on evolved over night. Cross reminds Crusades the Holy Religious War. What it is the need to keep that sign alive?
    Question is not which country is better and which is not. Question is when religion is separated from State, why it is still on State Flag. I Believe you are not able to digest the truth "Secular double standards".


  10. #30
    Intermediate Bret Hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    I think one point which Br. @atensari is trying to make is so far neglected by the respondents and thatís the sense of attachment of these nations with their Christianity by respecting the symbols and emblems of that faith till this day despite of having secular setups for centuries. This point should be considered with utmost interest despite of discussing those issues which are not directly related to the theme of this thread.

    I think European continent, if taken as holistic unit hypothetically speaking, is very much keen now to spread its area of influence and order which used to be its hallmark back in the days of their glory in more vehement tones when Roman Empire used to hold sway its colossal power in the ancient times and to a lesser extent with the Holy Roman Empire, when Christianity as a faith was the ideological base of that ragtag state which later faced its logical fate of doom rather quickly than its predecessor template empire.

    The interesting case study of Turkey can be viewed for further corroboration which is perhaps the most secular Muslim dominant state in the world but has yet to get a nod from the EU establishment to become the part and parcel of their community under the umbrella of EU constitution and agenda. The designs and motives of EU community can be understood through their policy against Turkey for instance which do seems to point towards their expansionary aims by looking to the symbols of their past forefathers when they got united in the name of Holy Crusades against the Muslim empires of the Middle Age.

    The secular garb of EU union is the modern day innovation but their goals and objectives will remain almost the same as they used to be the centre of attention for their predecessors in the past that used to adore the attire of Christian faith.


  11. #31
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by biofilm View Post
    So you would be happy if only these symbols are removed? it does matter in Europe anymore. People here have come out the awe of religion. They separate religion from state. They have a very clear understanding of secular social life. it does not matter if flag has a Cross or not. Europe is a based on Judeo.Christian values and you cannot change history but they dont accept religious order in official life. only private matters and social areas to some extent have religious tone. So it is very stupid to argue on this issue. when you have Muslim countries like saudi arabia who are religiously so narrow minded that they dont even allow muslim brothers and sisters to go there and settle. I can tell you from my personal experiences I have more freedom to preach my religion then in pakistan. You know that premise of your argument is just wrong. Actions in west speak louder that words here in west.
    Removing cross from flag will not change their intentions. Church is separated from State, for time being they might have some tolerance for other religions (which is gradually decreasing) but internationally CRUSADES are not finished yet, not me, they are saying this themselves http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=7654.6246.130.0&preview.

    Saudi do not allow even Muslims to settle there is racist not religious. How different Israel is from Saudia. Seculars abandon Muslim state and Khilafa and formed and safe guarding religious racist state.

    Action of west are really speaking loudly in Muslim Kashmir, Palestine and Christine East Tamoor and Saudan.

    Once said for Mulla 100% applicable on Secular
    ملا کو جو ہے ہند میں سجدے کی اجازت
    نادان سمجھتا ہے کہ اسلام ہے آزاد


  12. #32
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by iceburg View Post
    I also don't like democracy. In my opinion best form of Govt. is Good Dictatorship (for example my own dictatorship) and the worst form of Govt. is bad dictatorship (for example your or Taliban dictatorship). Mere bas main ho ... Mujh main itni taaqat ho tu democracy ki aisi ki taisi kar doon. Jis din mujh main itni power aaye gi aisa kar bhi doon ga. Lakin as a matter of fact itni mujh main power nahi hai. Abhi hamare Mulak pe Munafiq Shareefon aur Raskal Zardariyon ka qabza hai. inn se jaan churrwane ka most direct/feasible aur possible way PTI ko support karna hai.

    Secondly I assure you ... agar aaj Khuda kisi ko Rightful Khalifa bana bhi de phir bhi iss baat ki koi guarentee nahi hai k tumhain os ka follower ban.ne ki taufeeq mile gi. Bilkul possible hai k tum os ki takfeer karna shuru kar do.

    So actually tum bilkul pointless ho. Ground realities ko nahi samajhte. Kuch short term strategies hoti hain kuch long term goals hote hain. Short term strategies are like stair steps to the achievement of long term goals. Tum stair step pe qadam rakhna he nahi chahte aur chahte ho k ooper ki manzil pe pohunch jao. Dear ... iss tarah tum idhar he kharre reh jao gy...!!!
    تم نے تو سارا مسئلہ ہی حل کر دیا. تم ٹہرے معصوم من الخطا میں پیدائشی گنہگار
    !دروازے کھڑکیاں بند کر کے گھر میں بیٹھ جاؤ، باہر نکلے اور کوئی حادثہ پیش آ گیا تو

    Last edited by atensari; 10-Apr-2012 at 06:44 AM.


  13. #33
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    تم نے تو سارا مسئلہ ہی حل کر دیا. تم ٹہرے معصوم من الخطا میں پیدائشی گنہگار
    !دروازے کھڑکیاں بند کر کے گھر میں بیٹھ جاؤ، باہر نکلے اور کوئی حادثہ پیش آ گیا تو

    Chalo problem solved..... with exception k I am also not free of Khata .... Lakin I have decided to trust Imran Khan whereas you will never trust anyone even if that anyone happened to be the true Caliph of your time...!!!


  14. #34
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by iceburg View Post
    Chalo problem solved..... with exception k I am also not free of Khata .... Lakin I have decided to trust Imran Khan whereas you will never trust anyone even if that anyone happened to be the true Caliph of your time...!!!
    تم کر لو گے؟


  15. #35
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    I can give you hundreds of links where Islamists are living within Britain,US and Europe calling for imposing the sharia law and inciting killing of Christian and Jews. Can someone do that in any muslim country. The freedom of expression and freedom to have an opinion is far more respected in west then in any muslim country combined. whether you accept/like it or not. As for Israel, it is a democratic state whereas Saudi Arabia is run by Saud family hence the name "Saudi" arabia. Do you know that in Israel there are people who openly voice that Israel should not exist? because there is freedom to have an opinion even though it is anti-state.
    In modern times there can be no Khilafah, even though I am in favor of it. But I am a realistic person. In times like this, Though muslims we are very different, some are secular muslims, some are liberal, some conservatives, some socialist and communist and some are fundamental muslims. if no other difference is found there are are Shia and Sunni. Apart from these ideological differences, we have different economic goals. Arabs are full of oil and every arab state have their own monetary policy. So Khilafat is a dream and probably will stay a dream.
    Quote Originally Posted by atensari View Post
    Removing cross from flag will not change their intentions. Church is separated from State, for time being they might have some tolerance for other religions (which is gradually decreasing) but internationally CRUSADES are not finished yet, not me, they are saying this themselves http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=7654.6246.130.0&preview.

    Saudi do not allow even Muslims to settle there is racist not religious. How different Israel is from Saudia. Seculars abandon Muslim state and Khilafa and formed and safe guarding religious racist state.

    Action of west are really speaking loudly in Muslim Kashmir, Palestine and Christine East Tamoor and Saudan.

    Once said for Mulla 100% applicable on Secular
    ملا کو جو ہے ہند میں سجدے کی اجازت
    نادان سمجھتا ہے کہ اسلام ہے آزاد


  16. #36
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    Re: Religion is separated from State Not from State Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by biofilm View Post
    I can give you hundreds of links where Islamists are living within Britain,US and Europe calling for imposing the sharia law and inciting killing of Christian and Jews. Can someone do that in any muslim country. The freedom of expression and freedom to have an opinion is far more respected in west then in any muslim country combined. whether you accept/like it or not. As for Israel, it is a democratic state whereas Saudi Arabia is run by Saud family hence the name "Saudi" arabia. Do you know that in Israel there are people who openly voice that Israel should not exist? because there is freedom to have an opinion even though it is anti-state.
    In modern times there can be no Khilafah, even though I am in favor of it. But I am a realistic person. In times like this, Though muslims we are very different, some are secular muslims, some are liberal, some conservatives, some socialist and communist and some are fundamental muslims. if no other difference is found there are are Shia and Sunni. Apart from these ideological differences, we have different economic goals. Arabs are full of oil and every arab state have their own monetary policy. So Khilafat is a dream and probably will stay a dream.
    You can give unpopular, ineffective, neglected links but I can give you real example of real people who always speak against Pakistan and Islam and they are flourishing. Can you speak about Holocaust? NO it is against law, their own interest are protected. But any body can say anything about Quran and Muhammad SAW and Islam. How come Democracy is pardon for a Terrorist, Racist and Religious State. From one angle Democracy and Dictatorship are one and same, human sovereignty. Not me, again Allama Iqbal exposed this realty.
    ہم نے خود شاہی کو پہنایا ہے جمہوری لباس
    جب ذرا آدم ہوا ہے خود شناس و خود نگر

    If you can spare some time listen to the whole poem, from 41:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM3QMUpq9Wg

    Change always brought in by part of community. Efforts are going to unite and gather peoples on one point agenda. This is going to happen and this will happen. Dreams come true you can run from reality but reality will follow you.


    Double standard of Religious sing on so-called Secular state flags still there.
    Last edited by atensari; 11-Apr-2012 at 05:39 AM.


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