For All Atheists !!!

[Joker]

In all Judeo-Christian scriptures. They say that the god is the most merciful meaning if you take the most merciful human today, take Bill Gates for example only, and multiply his mercy one trillion fold it will not be even close to infinite mercy of god. Now you take the most vengeful person in the history like Stalin and multiply his vengeance trillion fold it will not be close to God's vengeance.

It is an impossibility for same being to be the most merciful and the most vengeful but the scriptures say that is the way it is. Its only one of many. Mercy and vengeance can not coexist its one or the other.

It is just like the Laws of a country. Basic purpose of the laws, rules and regulations in a country is to provide safety, security and peace to its citizens. At the same time, same Laws punish the people who violets it. So Mercy and vengeance coexists at the same time.
Same is true for Almighty Allah, he is merciful for those who obey his laws and punish those who violet his laws.
Only your choice matters, which way you wanna go. And Human is completely free to choose his destiny.

[Unicorn]

It is just like the Laws of a country. Basic purpose of the laws, rules and regulations in a country is to provide safety, security and peace to its citizens. At the same time, same Laws punish the people who violets it. So Mercy and vengeance coexists at the same time.
Same is true for Almighty Allah, he is merciful for those who obey his laws and punish those who violet his laws.
Only your choice matters, which way you wanna go. And Human is completely free to choose his destiny.

You said " its JUST like the laws of the country " lets examine this first the country law and than God law. You are correct laws of countries are based on for the purpose of safety and security of people.

Country laws are divided into two some times three categories 1 offenses, vengeance in this category is restricted to a fine like hwy traffic act and if you can prove that your intent was not to speed than generally the vengeance is further reduced.2 and 3 are criminal offenses category 2 the vengeance is short prison terms 3 the vengeance is longer prison term. Humans have also laws that prohibit cruel and unjust vengeance. God does not have any rule against cruel punishment he is quite ok for burning me in pain with no time limit and for ever.

Lets use the offenses part for the purpose of simplicity only. Country's law in the speed limits are Clearly marked sometimes with flashing lights. It is quite difficult for a driver to over-speed unless he is in a rush and he decides to compromise the safety of others. It is quite possible for a human to go through all his life and not violate traffic laws.

You have stated that "Allah, he is merciful for those who obey his laws and punish those who violet his laws" To further add to the confusion he also granted FREE WILL. Its like you telling your son this is your room and you can color it any way you want. Son says OK I will color yellow I really like it. You say no I suggest you color it Red but you have the free will. Kid says no I will color it yellow. You say if you color it any other color that red than I am going to beat every day of your life and you will be in a lot of pain but you have free will. Does a kid like me really have free will in this case?

In God's long highway of life the laws are very ambiguous not clearly marked and free will is also granted to us. A average man/woman can be easily confused by them. What do we humans do when we have not fully understood them? We go to another human being who have spent lot more time on studying the laws (scholar ). One scholar says if you go any less than 100 km an hour in this situation, its a unforgivable offense, another one says you cannot go more than 60 otherwise it is a unforgivable offense. I don't need to show you fatwas of scholars against each other.

[Jack Sparrow]

Country laws are divided into two some times three categories 1 offenses, vengeance in this category is restricted to a fine like hwy traffic act and if you can prove that your intent was not to speed than generally the vengeance is further reduced.2 and 3 are criminal offenses category 2 the vengeance is short prison terms 3 the vengeance is longer prison term. Humans have also laws that prohibit cruel and unjust vengeance. God does not have any rule against cruel punishment he is quite ok for burning me in pain with no time limit and for ever.

Maha Raj , You gave answer of your questions yourself. According to your traffic scenario ,same rules made by Almighty Allah.

First you didn't mentioned the driver who willing and consiously killed number of people under his truck or cars during driving. What is the punishment for such driver in worldly Laws? Definitely the person who killed pedestrians intentionally will be sentenced death or will face whole life imprisoned. So he has no escape at all due to his wrong doings.
Same principle will hold for non believers in life hereafter.


Now comes to your three categories, metaphorically ,your mentioned categories are for believers in life hereafter. The believers who believed that "there is no God but only Almighty Allah and Quran is the last book for guidance from him " .and if such believer spent his whole life in sins , may be he has to spend some time in hell due to his wrong doings , but ultimately he will go into heavens eternally for sure after completing his punishment.

As long as free will concerned , Everything has some predefined rules in advance. Suppose you are student and you are in examination room. Now you have total free will ,either you can attempt exam and answer the questions , or you can leave the answer sheet blank.No one will force you to answer the questions.
But according to some predefined rules . If you left your answer sheet blank , then you will definitely fail. If you attempted the exam and got 50% marks then you will pass and you will be rewarded with the prize which is mentioned before your entering into the examination room.


You gave the example of son & father in illogical way. Despite of disobedience by son ,no father can punish or bash his son throughout life.
You didn't mention the scenario ,if your son didn't accept you as his father. He himself don't want to live in the palace ,you made for him with great love. what will you do then?



And in God's highway ,there is no ambiguity . You don't need to go to scholars . You have Quran as benchmark.just study it and think about it yourself. Quran will give you justifications itself.


In the last I know you have a Quran in your library , Just for experiment think some most challenging questions you can , then randomly open the page from Quran and start reading , you will get all the answers of your questions with full logic.

[xpakistani]

The sad reality behind this clever little illustration is that mothers of roughly 30% of the children conceived today will have them killed before they get a chance to see ‘Mom’ or experience life outside the womb…well, this life, anyway.

[cofcol]

My wisdom tells that the carrot and stick rule never works on those who cannot be enticed or scared.

The presence of a super power (God) is psychological need of human beings so that they can ask this super power for protection from unknown. This is how human beings are brought up. Their first God is their parents. Belief in God makes life easy. You can prey to God for the safety of your children, protection from deadly diseases and so on. In return you pay something to God that is harmless, like praying.

The other path is very difficult and stressful. Try to find reasons and resolve the problems.

So take the easy way and believe in God. Any god…..

[Jack Sparrow]

In all Judeo-Christian scriptures. They say that the god is the most merciful meaning if you take the most merciful human today, take Bill Gates for example only, and multiply his mercy one trillion fold it will not be even close to infinite mercy of god. Now you take the most vengeful person in the history like Stalin and multiply his vengeance trillion fold it will not be close to God's vengeance.

It is an impossibility for same being to be the most merciful and the most vengeful but the scriptures say that is the way it is. Its only one of many. Mercy and vengeance can not coexist its one or the other.

Nice , you gave the answer of your question yourself, Mercy and vengeance cannot coexist.Its one or the other.
Almighty Allah is most merciful and beneficent for believers. and vengeful for the non-believers . Logic holds this time also.Almighty Allah is not merciful and vengeful at the same person at the same time.

[cofcol]

My wisdom says an obedient only needs conviction not reward to be a true obedient. Obedient will not waiver even when the reward withdran.

Unicorn . . .you and these people are on different levels, they wont understand you.

[Unicorn]

You said " its JUST like the laws of the country " lets examine this first the country law and than God law. You are correct laws of countries are based on for the purpose of safety and security of people.

Country laws are divided into two some times three categories 1 offenses, vengeance in this category is restricted to a fine like hwy traffic act and if you can prove that your intent was not to speed than generally the vengeance is further reduced.2 and 3 are criminal offenses category 2 the vengeance is short prison terms 3 the vengeance is longer prison term. Humans have also laws that prohibit cruel and unjust vengeance. God does not have any rule against cruel punishment he is quite ok for burning me in pain with no time limit and for ever.

Lets use the offenses part for the purpose of simplicity only. Country's law in the speed limits are Clearly marked sometimes with flashing lights. It is quite difficult for a driver to over-speed unless he is in a rush and he decides to compromise the safety of others. It is quite possible for a human to go through all his life and not violate traffic laws.

You have stated that "Allah, he is merciful for those who obey his laws and punish those who violet his laws" To further add to the confusion he also granted FREE WILL. Its like you telling your son this is your room and you can color it any way you want. Son says OK I will color yellow I really like it. You say no I suggest you color it Red but you have the free will. Kid says no I will color it yellow. You say if you color it any other color that red than I am going to beat every day of your life and you will be in a lot of pain but you have free will. Does a kid like me really have free will in this case?

In God's long highway of life the laws are very ambiguous not clearly marked and free will is also granted to us. A average man/woman can be easily confused by them. What do we humans do when we have not fully understood them? We go to another human being who have spent lot more time on studying the laws (scholar ). One scholar says if you go any less than 100 km an hour in this situation, its a unforgivable offense, another one says you cannot go more than 60 otherwise it is a unforgivable offense. I don't need to show you fatwas of scholars against each other.

Brother Jack, we are trying to go through the exercise of Logic. Reasoning is an important part of this exercise reasoning is also a part of rationality that is an exercise in it self it is a process that lead to conclusions. Once you have reached a conclusion you should be able to explain your reasoning that lead you to the conclusion. Quite often you and can use incorrect reasoning and when reasoning can be explained in most cases it can be corrected and demonstrated to the person where an error has been made. Just like a mathematician one mathematician comes to the conclusion that SQ root of 81 is 8. Other mathematician who says its 9 can look at the details of the first mathematician where he went wrong in its calculations.

Having said that, When you bring in situations that don't exist in calculations you are basically adding fallacies into a scenario that would best fit your beliefs. When you say "how about people who deliberately drive on a highway to kill people" this situation does not exist. It is the ordinary people who includes 99.9 percent of humanity the rest do not have a proper chemical mix in their brain.

Ordanary people don't get up one morning and say well I am going to buy some fruit in the market and O I feel like killing five people there today so I will take my knife with me you can't hypothesize some thing like that and live your life as if this is going to happen. Well you can live like that but life is not going to be pleasant for you and you just have to rely on afterlife.

[Unicorn]

The presence of a super power (God) is psychological need of human beings so that they can ask this super power for protection from unknown. This is how human beings are brought up. Their first God is their parents. Belief in God makes life easy. You can prey to God for the safety of your children, protection from deadly diseases and so on. In return you pay something to God that is harmless, like praying.

The other path is very difficult and stressful. Try to find reasons and resolve the problems.

So take the easy way and believe in God. Any god…..

Very well said. You said 300 pages of text in a few words.

[Mughal1]

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthrea...l=1#post711922


Dear friends, by getting in to nonsense arguments you are misleading yourselves. Let us agree on rational approach to God.

Q1)How do we know something exists or not?

A1)We know something exists by way of direct detection eg direct sensory perception.

Q2) What if something happens to be beyond our direct perception ie it is not self evident?

A2) Through a reliable witness if there is one.

Q3)What if something is not self evident and we do not have any reliable witness for it either?

A3) By circumstantial evidences on basis of probabilities.


It is clear to us that God is beyond our sensory perception ie he is not something self evident for us. So we are only left with two possibilities ie his testimony or statement or circumstantial evidences.

The quran is statement of God for mankind, so all we need to do is understand it properly and examine it for its claims and its evidences that it points to and the arguments and explanations it puts forth and if they make sense then then we have very clear proof that God exists.

This is also further reinforced by circumstantial evidences and clues leaving us in no doubt that God does exist.

This is how the quran clearly proves its claim of divine origin without going into nitty gritty of things that people really do not need to know about God or anything else. It is because the quran is revealed for a set purpose and for that reason it contains all the information people need to get on with their lives..

Now if we look at meanings of islamic terms they are very precise, telling us clearly the quran is not work of an ordinary man. For this one really needs to know the quran to appreciate its organisation and structuring and the information it contains.

If I ask anyone what is metaphor in the quranic context I doubt any one will be able to explain on this forum, this shows a special use of language by the quran. Arabic itself is a unique language due to its system of roots instead of words.

There is no other book like the quran in the world and there cannot be any. To realise this one has to read the quran with thoughtful but very critical mind. This book is not for baby minded people but for people who want to reach stars and are willing to make effort for that. It is a torch that shows the way as far as you want to go is up to you.

[Resonant]

Act of mercy is kindness, compassion and forgiveness to an adversary. Act of vengeance is no kindness, no compassion and no forgiveness followed by acts of utter violence on an adversary. Proof is very easy. Try to get a vengeance person to commit act of mercy to an adversary or try to get a mercy-full person to commit act of vengeance to an adversary.

You claimed that mercy and venegence cant co-exist, and i asked you to prove it or give any example...All we see around us, are the examples of the co-existance of mercy and venegence. I have not yet seen any person in life who is just merciful and donot have any iota of venegence in it, or who is full of venegence only and does not have any particle of mercy....If you have any example , plz share with us, otherwise what is the basis of your claim that "Mercy and venegence cannot co-exist."?....When a judge sentence a murderer for the death, what do you call it mercy or venegence?
My point is that, The mercy and venegence are just two sides of the same coin...You cannot have any idea of mercy, if there is no absence of mercy...You cant enjoy any music if it does not include the absence of sound in it at desirable points.

[Bret Hawk]

Lets use bit of logic and try to put things in their real size and perspective.

I would urge you to kindly construct a meaningful and logical statement which should pertains with the existence of God and this universe. So far you’re moving in circles and trying to draw others in that state where you most probably are at the moment. I might not be an expert logician but will try my best to understand the “sweeping statements” of yours in your previous posts on this thread.

I “Logic is anti-religion”.
II “Belief (Religious one included) is entrenched in intuition not on the basis of scientific observation”.
III “Humans require the belief on some supernatural force to get the sheltering shade for their fears and anxieties”.


Now my counter points for you to initiate this interesting debate hopefully we both will try to avoid passing personal remarks and judgements;

I Logic and religion might seem to lie on parallel lines sometimes I do admit and sometimes they do interact at some points so are we trying to relate the substance of these two concepts in “One State of environment” or to tie them in different set of ambiences where their functions and activities also differ or wrest redundant according to their limitations and capacities?

II Belief does not simply dwells in the realm of Intuition as the religious figures of the past and present asserts in no unequivocal terms so next question comes to my mind is does Scientific Observation (By keeping in mind here we mean sensory observation) also claim to bear same results in different environments and set of forces of nature?

III May be your observation fall in the category of some credence here but I’ve seen many of the followers of religions to be in a state of fear and perplexity so according to your own contention this magical concoction of believing that supposed Deity does not always work perfectly to insulate those followers from their problems. Therefore can we come up with some other set of points in order to interlink them with the belief of God or gods?

[Desi_Action]

There is only 'one god' is also very and highly sweeping statement. Why not two gods, and whats wrong with having 3 gods..... 10 million gods, in case of Hinduism, for instance is like playing in safe hands, end of the day. More the better. And why I gods have similar emotions to human beings? That gives a hint.... Human created god, not other way round....though one may say, it is very sweeping statement....but it is as sweeping as the claim of one god being a creator.

Lets think numerically;
on a number space, say N: 0,1,2,3........1,00,0000,......∞.

Why people are so insistent to number 1? what is wrong with 0, or infinity?
There is no scientific observation behind number 1..... same Indian people, who used to believe in multiple number of Gods, converted to Islam and Christianity, and dropped the number of Gods, in their belief system....just intuitively, right?

And the personification of God or Gods were settled according to their social, economic, political knowledge and needs of the time.
One question at the end....how believers of no god, one god or many gods are different?

[Unicorn]

You claimed that mercy and venegence cant co-exist, and i asked you to prove it or give any example...All we see around us, are the examples of the co-existance of mercy and venegence. I have not yet seen any person in life who is just merciful and donot have any iota of venegence in it, or who is full of venegence only and does not have any particle of mercy....If you have any example , plz share with us, otherwise what is the basis of your claim that "Mercy and venegence cannot co-exist."?....When a judge sentence a murderer for the death, what do you call it mercy or venegence?
My point is that, The mercy and venegence are just two sides of the same coin...You cannot have any idea of mercy, if there is no absence of mercy...You cant enjoy any music if it does not include the absence of sound in it at desirable points.

It is the duality of man in another words mercy and vengeance are two different hats along with several hates. Two hats can not be worn at the same. One thing that we both may agree upon is that the only thing worth knowing is the truth.

[Unicorn]

I would urge you to kindly construct a meaningful and logical statement which should pertains with the existence of God and this universe. So far you’re moving in circles and trying to draw others in that state where you most probably are the moment. I might not be an expert logician but will try my best to understand the “sweeping statements” of yours in your previous posts on this thread.

I “Logic is anti-religion”.
II “Belief (Religious one included) is entrenched in intuition not on the basis of scientific observation”.
III “Humans require the belief on some supernatural force to get the sheltering shade for their fears and anxieties”.


Now my counter points for you to initiate this interesting debate hopefully we both will try to avoid passing personal remarks and judgements;

I Logic and religion might seem to lie on parallel lines sometimes I do admit and sometimes they do interact at some points so are we trying to relate the substance of these two concepts in “One State of environment” or to tie them in different set of ambiences where their functions and activities also differ or wrest redundant according to their limitations and capacities?

II Belief does not simply dwells in the realm of Intuition as the religious figures of the past and present asserts in no unequivocal terms so next question comes to my mind is does Scientific Observation (By keeping in mind here we mean sensory observation) also claim to bear same results in different environments and set of forces of nature?

III May be your observation fall in the category of some credence here but I’ve seen many of the followers of religions to be in a state of fear and perplexity so according to your own contention this magical concoction of believing that supposed Deity does not always work perfectly to insulate those followers from their problems. Therefore can we come up with some other set of points in order to interlink them with the belief of God or gods?

I have also found that at many points the individual statements contained in religions at times satisfy the logical aspects at times brilliantly.

I don't think any of us can claim an expertise in logic.I thing we all have a logical mind and it has to be continually sharpened with knowledge.

[Bangash]

The sad reality behind this clever little illustration is that mothers of roughly 30% of the children conceived today will have them killed before they get a chance to see ‘Mom’ or experience life outside the womb…well, this life, anyway.

http://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AD%...85%D9%88%D8%AA

[zrajput]

First time, I see something serious by JOKER. Very nice Sharing

aaj joker ki chutti hey circus se, kyun ke wahaan ka sher kartab dekhane siachin gaya hua hey